Married over 20 years, 2 boys, 13 & 20, early infidelity on my part, later infidelity on my wife's part.

Several weeks ago we were invited to my friend's house for the Super Bowl. I asked my wife if she would want to go, and she said no. She doesn't really know my friend nor his wife, he's a co-worker of mine, and she said she just didn't feel like going over to someone's house where she wouldn't know anyone. I then asked her if she would be ok if I went without her, and she said it was, if it was what I wanted to do. So, I went to my friend's Super Bowl party.

I didn't know beforehand who else my friend invited, but assumed other co-workers, their wives, and probably some of his friends that I do not know. One person that he invited was a single female friend of his. At that time, I did not see this being an issue at all. I was there to hang out with my guy friends and enjoy the game. I barely spoke to this woman, as I don't even know her, and we ended up seated on opposite sides of a fairly large living room.

Now my wife is upset with me, after learning what I believe is a minor detail about that Super Bowl party, that there was a single female there in attendance. She says that because I was also there alone, that it looked inappropriate, and that I should have left as soon as I could out of respect for my wife instead of staying for the entire game.

I firmly admit that I can be dense, bonehead, and simple-minded, and that sometimes I need things spelled out for me. My wife explained this boundary (which I innocently violated out of my ignorance) is that I should not be present at any social gathering without her when there are single females present, regardless if my guy friends or other married couples are also there. I apologized to my wife, but she is very angry with me, and does not believe that I did not realize I behaved inappropriately. I explained to her that now that she has clarified this with me, I will never cross that boundary again because I now know that she believes it's wrong. I would never knowingly hurt my wife's feelings, but sometimes I need her to communicate to me what exactly I may do that upsets her.

Is this a common boundary that I should have already been aware of? I feel awful for hurting my wife this way, as I did not know how she felt about my being in that particular situation. Was I naive in thinking it was okay for me, given my past, to remain at my friend's house after realizing there was a single female also in attendance?

The problem didn't start with who was at the party; the problem started with your independent behavior in going there without your wife's enthusiastic agreement in the first place. Are you familiar with the Policy of Joint Agreement - never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse? Your wife's agreement was reluctant, and her subsequent objections follow from that as much as anything else.

Yes sir, I know about the POJA, and we both have been practicing it for the most part all these years now since we discovered MB. My wife is rarely "enthusiastic" about anything. I've done many things without her, with her approval, like going to see movies with my boys that she's not into, regularly going to the gym, helping a friend out on a regular basis, gone to music concerts of bands she's not into, etc. When I ask her about doing these things without her, I even sometimes annoy her with my repeated "are you sure?" questions about her approval. This Super Bowl party was in my view no different than any other.

So, is her being upset that I was at a Super Bowl party without her *and* a single female being present basically a red herring?

Are you sure you are really married? It sure doesn't sound like it. Is there ANY leisure time you spend together?

If your wife is "rarely enthusiastic" about anything, then what are you doing about it? That is a problem to be solved, not a condition to just accept. It sounds like she is completely checked out and makes many reluctant agreements. When my H and I are not enthusiastic about our choices of leisure activity, we keep looking until we find something we can do together. What you describe doesn't even remotely resemble the integrated romantic relationships that Marriage Builders concepts create.

Affairs occur in marriages where there are separate leisure lifestyles. How often do you go out on dates with her? How many hours per week?

Well, to clarify, she's very reserved, and her lack of enthusiasm in general is just her personality. And I'm talking about not responding in a very bubbly manner like "SURE, you go to the Hum/Failure concert without me, I'll be *totally* fine, hope you have fun!" type of agreement. With my wife, it's more along the lines of "sure", "ok", "fine", "if that's what you want to do", "I'm ok with that", "enjoy", etc.

We do plenty together. More so than we ever did before learning about MB. The examples of activities I do without her are rare occasions. Movies for example, I rarely go as I hate theater crowds. I went to see the new Star Wars, a rare "event" movie. I go to the RiffTrax Live Fathom events, which are about 3 to 4 times a year. I like weight lifting, but my wife is physically unable to lift weights because of her rheumatoid arthritis. But she comes with me to the gym every now and then to run on the treadmill, and we do walks together when we can. The Super Bowl party, I can't remember the last time I ever went to a friend's house, and this was probably the first time I watched the game somewhere else.

I'm really trying to zero in on this specific question about whether or not I truly was an insensitive jerk in not leaving that Super Bowl party as soon as I realized there was a single female present.

And to help clarify, this was almost a month ago. My wife is only finding out about the presence of this woman now as it just came to my mind when I shared with my wife that she's started working in my office that my friend helped her land. So I find it hard to understand that my wife's explanation for why she's upset with me actually should be interpreted as something else.

Again, is her being upset about that just a red herring? Are you all reading something else about our relationship that, again, my denseness is failing to recognize??

Calling her concern a red herring is very disrespectful. I would tell her you are sorry and promise to avoid situations like this in the future. The biggest problem I see is that you have a very independent lifestyle. That would make any spouse highly concerned. If I were you, I would forgo your independent activities and start doing things with her. If you had done something with her during Superbowl, you wouldn't have this issue.

Can you tell me how many dates you went on last week and what you did? How many hours did you spend on dates?


I don't agree it is a personality issue. We have many introverts and what you describe is a reluctant agreement from someone who is checked out. Do you think she is passionately in love with you?

I'm not calling her concern a red herring, I'm only now *asking* if it is because so far I'm only getting answers to different questions, and am being asked about things that I do not see are relevant to the subject of my thread. But okay....

I have apologized to her, and promised her I would never allow myself to remain in that *specific*, unsought after, situation ever again. Of course, hindsight is 20/20, I never would have gone in the first place if I would have known it would have caused us all this grief. (and I did share that last part with my wife)

Again, it is truly the exception that I do anything without my wife. Actual dates are difficult nowadays because we're having issues with our son failing school, requiring constant supervision. But, we did go to the movies together a couple weeks ago, we had lunch alone this past Saturday at a new restaurant we've been wanting to try, the weather has been really nice here lately that we've been going on walks alone almost daily, we regularly attend Church and go to the same Sunday school class instead of the separate men's/women's classes, I can go on and on. So, no, an independent lifestyle is not the problem.

We have different opinions on what a joint agreement is in a marriage. I'll leave it at that for now.

Do I think she is passionately in love with me? Hmm, that is quite a can of worms, and the short answer is no, not since her d-day 18+ years ago, for reasons I can write a book about, but not get any insight into the question I am here asking about. Or will I? This is getting more confusing.

Should I stop trying to make sense of her explanation for her anger towards me *now* (as of yesterday), that I *should* have known at the time that I was doing something wrong, and that I should have left that party early? She has told me that she thinks I'm full of s*@# when I say as part of my apology that I naively violated a boundary and I was completely ignorant of it. So then, am I full of it?

Or is my focus too narrow, and I should instead look at all these other, broader areas of our marriage? Had our marriage been in a more healthy state, would my going alone to a friend's house for a get together where a single female would be present not cause any issue in my marriage? I just don't want to screw up again, and am looking to have my eyes opened more to avoid causing any future grief in my marriage.

I get your point now. And yes, I do think her concern is an indicator of bigger problems in your marriage. Focusing on this one little slice of the pie misses the bigger problem.


You mentioned several events that you do on your own, concerts, movies, working out at the gym but you rarely get out on dates with her. Did you know it takes 15 hours of UA a week to sustain the love in a marriage? It takes 15 hours per week of UA time to sustain and 20-25 to create. I have a fully integrated, passionate marriage and the things you do without her are very odd and surprising to someone in an integrated marriage.


The POJA is very, very specific so if you disagree on what it means and how it is to be executed, please tell me how.


I think if your marriage was healthy, you wouldn't be going to your friends house without your wife in the first place. That is the kind of independent lifestyle that leads to affairs and likely terrifies her. Like I said before, it is your lifestyle that is the problem.


Not being in love is a symptom of a sick marriage that is very vulnerable to affairs. What MB does is creates an integrated, passionate marriage. But you and your wife have not done that.

Thank you for your detailed reply, I really appreciate it.

Ok, I get it, I'm dwelling too much on this relatively minor incident instead of our marriage as a whole.

Well, in short, my wife will never be passionately in love with me. I've applied the MB concepts to the best of my ability, but I'm only human, and I slip up from time to time. And when I do, my wife is very unforgiving, and usually ends up bringing up my past. She reminds me that she is reminded of my past every time she talks to her parents when they bring up her sister that she's estranged from, who I made a pass to. To this day, she has never forgiven me for my past. And during our argument over this recent incident, she said after I "shoved MB down her throat", I should have known better. So, she doesn't think much of MB. We do have our good periods together, but there is always a wedge between us, her "wall" as I call it. She has admitted to me that she will never fully open herself emotionally to me. In MB terms, she deliberately limits deposits into her love bank from me. I've accepted that, as I cannot change her, and really, it may be too much to expect her to fully commit to our marriage given how my betrayal involved her family which will always be a constant reminder.

So yes, our marriage is sick, but when one of us doesn't want to let go of past infidelities and refuse emotional intimacy, I don't foresee it improving. In her words, we're "making the best of it".

Why do you think she stays with you? What is she getting out of it?

What does she know about Marriage Builders? It is unusual that a betrayed spouse would not embrace Marriage Builders since she is the one who would benefit the most.

What exactly have you told her about Marriage Builders? Have you told her she should "forgive" you? And for the record, MB does not advocate forgiveness.

I can understand why your wife has never recovered. First off, you don't use our program and when these steps are skipped after an affair, the resentment of the spouse grows with each year. Your marriage has not really been affair proofed and keeps her perpetually triggered.


Can you give some specific examples of how you slipped up?

SadPunk,

I don't think you understand the significance of your marital history. I can see why your wife is so defeated by these recent events.

There have been infidelities on both sides in your marriage. Early in your marriage, you pursued her sister (?), with whom you had cheated physically when you and your wife were dating. Your wife should have, and probably did, put that in the past when she married you, but because after marriage you went after lots of women, including her sister again, and also her best friend, this probably made her feel that you had married her under false pretences - with the intention of getting with her sister, if you could. It made her feel that you would always pursue other women, and that she was unsafe being married to you.

Your wife later had a long affair with someone she met online. You discovered that affair after it had ended, but she moved out for some reason, and you suspected, but could never prove, that she was having another affair with a contractor from her work. You filed for divorce.

She eventually decided to come back, and you coached with the Harleys.

When your wife said that after you "shoved MB down her throat" you should have known better, your wife is pointing to the fact that you've done MB coaching and you should know, now and forever, about not allowing yourself to be in situations in which you could flirt and pursue other women. The thing is, you did this to her before and after marriage, with devastating results to her confidence in you, and yet despite your "making her" do MB after her affair, YOU seem to have learned little from that coaching, because here you are engaging in risky behaviour yet again.

That's her point.

And yes, as has been said, you should not be pursuing separate leisure interests and separate lives as you do, and you should not socialise without her where it is likely that you will be in mixed company, and you should have left when you realised that a single woman was at the event, as your wife says. All of those activities are making your marriage so unhappy. However, the deal breaker for your wife is that you have done them before, and coached with the Harleys, and seem to have learned nothing from either experience.

And so, it is not that your wife "has never forgiven you for your past". It is not that "one of us doesn't want to let go of past infidelities". You are seeing the crisis as being caused by your wife's unforgiving nature and hard heart, when in fact, her insecurity is very well justified, and is caused by the fact that you continue to engage in risky activities.

Your marriage WILL NOT be healed, and will never develop into happiness and romantic love, until you prove to your wife, through your behaviour, that an affair is not possible any more. That means that you never socialise without her again, and that you actively create time for undivided attention, which means dating your wife for at least 15 hours a week, out of the home.

And so to answer the question in your thread title:

Yes, this is a boundary that you should have already been aware of.

I would not say that this is a "common" boundary, because most of the married people I have known, including me and my husband before we discovered MB, have thought it perfectly okay, and even positively healthy, to socialise without our spouses in mixed company. Married people think that having coffee and lunch at work with opposite sex colleagues, going for drinks after work without our spouses, and going alone to birthday and retirement parties, the office Christmas party and other non business functions, is perfectly okay. We are, after all, intelligent beings, not animals, and we will not snog or pull our pants down for someone who chats us up at work - how dare you even suggest such a thing!

So, it isn't a common boundary, but it is one that all of us here have learned about as a result of coming to MB. Those of us who have rebuilt, or are still rebuilding, our marriages, and who study Dr Harley's materials carefully, know that we don't even ask our spouses whether it is okay to go to a social event like a Superbowl party on our own. We ask to go together, and if the event is one that the spouse does not fancy we don't go alone, even if, as yours did, they tell us it's okay, "if that was what I wanted to do". For a start, you should have seen that for the reluctant agreement that it was - your wife really did not want you to go, and hoped that you would work that out for yourself, and decline the invitation (a bad strategy on her part; she should have been honest) - but also, you should know that, even if there had been an enthusiastic agreement for you to attend alone, you should not make enthusiastic agreements to things that are bad for the marriage. Socialising alone in mixed company is bad for the marriage, full stop, so you should not have done it.

This is a boundary that you should have been aware of, given that you have done MB coaching, and given that you have been on this forum since 2007 (not consistently), and given that you have both had affairs in your marriage. In fact, the boundary should have been drawn against going to the event alone.

There should be no more socialising alone, for either of you. Do not even think about it, much less ask. Do do not behave as if you are a single man, whether you get a reluctant agreement or an enthusiastic one. That behaviour should have stopped years ago.

Absolutely agree!

100% agree.

I reviewed some of your old posts. You have never actually followed the mB plan. No wonder your wife doesnt like it.

To understand: you told your wife recently that you will be getting a new colleague, that your friend helped her get the job there, and - oh yes - she was at the Superbowl party that Dave threw.

You were correct to tell your wife about the new colleague, and about the fact that your friend helped her get the job. You should talk to her about your life when you are at work, in order to, as Dr Harley puts it, "invite her into all the rooms" in your life. If you think of your life as a house with rooms - for work, friendships, sport and leisure, finances, and most importantly for most women, your thoughts and feelings (women often place "openness and honesty" as an important emotional need) - all of those rooms should be completely open for your wife to go into. There should be no part of your life that is off limits or opaque to her.

However, that information, coupled with your only just now mentioning that a month ago she was alone at a fun event at which you were also alone, has set your wife's spidey senses tingling.

Is this a case of "here we go again"? Is he talking about this woman because he is interested in her? Did they connect to some degree at the Superbowl party, or did he maybe just notice her there, and now she's going to be working with him he's excited about that?

Because of your past, and the way in which all this current information has emerged, your wife is now feeling insecure about the future. You have not told us about whether she has engaged in risky behaviour since her affair(s), but it could be that she feels that she has given you nothing to feel insecure about since then, while you have not done the same.

Her feeling that there might be something brewing between you and the single woman will not go away on its own, and you will continue to experience her "lack of enthusiasm in general", and her closed love bank, unless you change your marriage radically so that there is transparency about what you are doing when you are at work, and there is emotional closeness between you, created by proper UA time. You need to connect with her several times during a working day, and always at lunch times (when you could be off with another woman).

You shouldn't go to the gym without her. You could invest in a set of weights to keep at home, cancel the gym membership and spend that money on dates, and go running with your wife outside. Never go to see a film without her, try and persuade her to try the RiffTrax thing (whatever that is!) - follow it up with dinner at a nice restaurant, perhaps - and if she won't go, cheerfully stop going yourself. The benefit to your marriage will be far greater than the sense of loss of an enjoyable activity. Walks are great for talking and affection; do one every week, and do other no-cost events for a total of 15 hours out of the home per week. Get your 20 year-old to keep an eye on the 13 year-old (I've had a troubled 13 year-old that I would not leave at home alone, and I understand your difficulty here), and get out of the house with your wife, doing something low-cost that you both find enjoyable, for a minimum of 15 hours per week.

I would be very upset if I found out my husband were hanging out with a woman when I wasnt around.

More so when he took a MONTH to let me know she was there. If she was the only single person at the event, your omission becomes VERY suspect, especially given your fantasy and infidelity history.

I think you came here to enlist us to tell her she is crazy. She is not. She is right to have radar going off.

You have never offered your wife Just Compension for the affair.

from a post by Prisca to another couple struggling with recovery:

"Just Compensation
1. Ending all contact with the affair partner for life
Examples: NC letter, phone number changed, email changed ...

2. Removing the conditions that led to the affair (Extraordinary Precautions).
Examples: Facebook shutdown, Radical Honesty (no secret second life), job change, no more nights apart ...

3. Creating a romantic relationship using Marriage Builders concepts.
Examples: Eliminate Lovebusters, POJA, PORH, meet EN, UA time each week ...

If the two of you follow these steps, his resentment will fade and you both will have a fulfilling marriage. If you continue on the path you are on, his resentment will only grow and he will continue to lovebust you until you hate him and want nothing more to do with him."

You should also enable her to track your phone so she knows where you are.

Does she have access to all your email and cell phone records?

To my mind, tracking your phone is not very useful if she is suspicious of a work colleague. All an unfaithful spouse needs to do is leave the phone at work and go off during the lunch break, or do whatever they do while on the premises.

It would be a bit more effective to speak to her, particularly with FaceTime or Skype. Not completely reassuring, because you can do those things while working around a mistress, but combined with all the other transparency you'd be offering, it could go a long way to restoring your marriage. It's hard to fumble with another woman while actively speaking to one's wife.

That does not mean that you should not offer tracking - just that you need to offer more.

Yes, that was in addition to daily contact. One of the best things my husband did for us was to start calling me several times throughout the day, including during his entire lunch. This lets me know he is always thinking about me and is not excluding me from any aspect of his life or spending lunch with someone else.