Hi everyone,
My husband and I have been together a total of 11 years, and have two wonderful daughters. 3+ years ago, I was out of town for work, drank too much, and slept with a co-worker. Despite the guilt, I kept it a secret and continued talking to this man. We went as far as planning further rendez-vous but never followed through. I didn't have feelings for him, but I liked the attention. After about a year I lost interest and instead sought attention online. I shared inappropriate pictures with a few men, one mostly, never meeting any of them in person. That lasted about a year and a half, on and off.

A year ago, things suddenly started changing with my H. He became kinder, more affectionate, more considerate, less controlling. Our sex life soared. BOTH of our needs were being met. I quickly lost interest in my online activities and was finally truly happy. Until H found out about what I'd done.

It's been an emotional nightmare since. On one hand, we're closer than we've ever been, communicating better than ever. He's sweet, and thoughful, and everything I love about him. But when he goes through his "downs", he's hurtful. He demeans me, puts me down, has called me names, makes me relive the incident(s) over and over again in sickening detail, has used sex against me, threatens to "cheat back" on me...
I'm doing everything I can to take responsibility, to show him how sorry I am. I have absolutely NC with any of these people anymore, I don't go out (except to run errands), he has access to all of my accounts, and I don't work there anymore. I feel terrible about what I've done. He knows this and knows I've changed, but he bounces from wanting to work it out, to dumping me, to wanting to work it out again. We've "broken up" 6 or 7 times, always with him telling me within 20 minutes he's changed his mind.

I recently started suffering from anxiety attacks which I've never had in my life. Terrible thoughts go through my head. I cry, all the time. I constantly feel on edge and scared of which "husband" is entering the room. I feel like every time I start to relax, bam! The rug gets pulled out from under me. I don't feel at home, like I'm only here on borrowed time which he can take away at any time.

I'm desperate for help. I tried the "listen up, buster" talk yesterday, but it went worse than ever. I told him I can't handle the back and forth, getting dumped and taken back right away, but he still does it on an almost weekly basis. How can I help him through the downs without getting trashed in the process? How on earth can I ever look at myself in mirror again and not see a piece of dirt?

How long has it been since he found out about the affair?

Have the two of you started the program of recovery?
Is he on board with the idea of creating a romantic marriage?
Do you have UA? How many hours? What do you do during that time?

He will either need to get on board with you in recovery and commit to never talking about the affair again, or you will need to separate. If you had the "listen buster" talk, then you need to follow through with it. He gets on board with you, or he loses you.

The answer is to use this program to rebuild your marriage better than ever. His resentment will fade as a result. It is the only way you can help him, but he must be willing to do his part.

What you can't do is to keep taking it, hoping he'll come around.

Thanks for your advice Prisca.

He found out about the online stuff first, back in May. I finally came out and told him about the incident at the work event 3.5 months ago. I'm not proud about keeping it from him. He gave me every opportunity to tell him before then. Ugh.

We both know we want to make each other happy, and we definitely want to create a romantic marriage. When things are normal, he's completely on board with all of this. He lifts me up, I lift him up. It's just when he has these down moments that he seems to forget it all. I've been telling him we need to stay as far away from the A topic as we can, focus on the positives, and he's not there yet. He says he feels like he'd just be letting me get away with it. I don't how else to explain that he's just continuing to hurt the both of us by dwelling on it.

We are very fortunate to get to spend a lot of UA time together. We go for long walks, play cards, watch movies/shows we love (I know that part doesn't really count but we definitely enjoy doing that together), we go skiing a lot, and we try to have our "coffee time" every day, which is an hour of coffee and chatting, something we started years ago and are trying to be more consistent about it. I couldn't even say how many hours we spend together, but it's a lot.

When we're good, we're great. But anything can and will trigger him. Sometimes it's consistent things, like when he's alone in the car going into the office which is only about once a week. Other times it just seems to materialize out of thin air. We'll be having a wonderful day, and then suddenly he brings it up. It usually begins okay, like he'll say he's sad. I listen and give him reassurances. But then it's like the more positive I try to be, the harsher he gets. And it doesn't end until I'm completely undone, crying, begging for his forgiveness, talking badly about myself.

I definitely hear what you're saying, about not continuing to take it, hoping he'll come around. I'm at the end of my rope. I just still have hope that he'll get there. What I'd like to know is what are some things I can specificlly say to lift him up *in the moment* when he starts talking about it? Is it ridiculous to have a "safe word"? Is it rude to force a change of subject?

I know the good Dr. has a few books out there. Which would you recommend starting with for our situation?

Nothing.
If he has all the information about the affairs, then there is nothing more you can say to him. You cannot "lift him up in the moment." What you can do is refuse to discuss the affairs with him any further -- you are hurting him by aiding him in dwelling on them.

He should identify triggers and eliminate them The two of you may need to move to make this possible. Moving helps a lot of couples recovering, even if the affairs were online or over text. Living in the same place can easily trigger bad memories.

Markos used to get triggered. But I rarely ever knew, because he never mentioned it to me. He was committed to protecting me. Your husband is going to have to do the same thing, if he wants to recover.

The few times markos would bring up the past, it set our recovery back to square one. Things started to get better when I started to refuse to engage in the discussions. He learned he had to live by the rules, too, if he wanted to live with me.

He cannot have both a romantic marriage AND hold onto the right to punish you. He needs to choose one or the other.

I suggest he choose the romantic marriage ... it will be wonderful for him. He will be fulfilled, and the resntment will be gone. He will not feel like you got away with something because of the Just Compensation you will have given him.

If he chooses to reserve the right to punish you, then you need to move on. It will only harm you, emotionally and likely your health as well.


Have you read Surviving an Affair? You need to start there.

Just Compensation:
1. Ending all contact with the affair partner for life
Examples: NC letter, phone number changed, email changed ...

2. Removing the conditions that led to the affair (Extraordinary Precautions).
Examples: Facebook shutdown, Radical Honesty (no secret second life), job change, no more nights apart ...

3. Creating a romantic relationship using Marriage Builders concepts.
Examples: Eliminate Lovebusters, POJA, PORH, meet EN, UA time each week ...

If the two of you follow these steps, his resentment will fade and you both will have a fulfilling marriage. If you continue on the path you are on, his resentment will only grow and he will continue to lovebust you until you hate him and want nothing more to do with him.

Start counting the hours. It is essential that you get 20-25 hours together each week as you recover.

What was done on this checklist?

Ok, I've just bought the book you suggested and will be giving a copy of it to H tonight. We'll read it together.

Everything on the list is checked off, except for the following:

Sending OP letter ending the relationship: It was already over. Online accounts have been closed. There has been absolutely NC with OP, and it will remain that way forever.

Avoid overnight separation: H's current job is out of town. He goes into the office once a week, and depending on weather conditions, he sometimes stays overnight. He only has 8 more weeks of this left, which I think will only involve 1 more overnight stay, maybe even none based on how this winter has been going.

Expose Affair to family members, ect: We are both agreed to keep this private matter private. There's no one on OP's end that needs to be aware of the situation as he was single, and our children are not going to be burdened with this. As for other family members, they are not involved in our private romantic life and that is where we'd both like to keep them. Should a separation or divorce take place, then yes, they would be told.

A quick count of UA hours per week shows well over 25. We're both home together at least 6 days a week, 4 of which are with the kids in school.

Are you on any social media, such as Facebook? You should shut those down as well, if it hasn't been done.

This not only puts your marriage at risk, but it will also keep him triggered. If he must go out of town overnight, you should go with him. It may seem difficult at first, but a priority needs to be put on this. It is vital to your recovery. No more nights apart. Ever.

Your family, friends, and clergy should be told. This will not only give your husband the support he needs, but it will help keep you accountable. Do not underestimate the value of this. Exposure is therapeutic, like a doctor lancing a festering wound so that it can heal.

How old are your kids? Dr. Harley recommends that children be told about past affairs when they reach their teenage years. The reason is so that they can learn from YOUR mistakes, and avoid making the same mistakes in their own future. It is a very valuable lesson you can teach them.

About 15 hours of these should be out of the house, on dates. You should plan 4 dates a week out of the house, which last 4 hours each, and are spent meeting the four Intimate Emotional Needs of Conversation, Affection, Recreational Companionship, and ending with Sexual Fulfillment.

I can completely understand where you H is coming from. We are entering into year 5 of our R. R our M is the most difficult thing I have ever done in my life.

However, none of can control the times in which we are triggered. Typically, I don't say anything to my FWW...however she knows.

What helps me is for her to reinforce her commitment to our relationship by telling me how much she loves me, she does not have a SSL and that she is being 100% honest with me.

Dr. Harley says that even the slightest deviation to his plan for recovery can be fatal for the couple. It is a long road to R. Very long.

Bringing up the A is the worse thing you can do. I know you know that. By both of you getting completely on board with this plan, you can R your M. I am living proof of that.

You can help him in his down times. Maybe he could explain to you what would help him?

Have you read SAA, LB and HNHN? These books changed our M.

There are a lot of problems with this post. First of all, recovery should not be taking five years! Anyone who finds it dragging out that long needs to get to Dr. Harley and get help. We don't want people to think it is going to be that long and that hard of a road, and it certainly shouldn't be.

Next, we can indeed control triggers to a great extent - by following Dr. Harley's recommendations for avoiding them. The first line of defense, the easiest solution that might work, the center of Dr. Harley's "concentric circles" approach, is to avoid the triggers. MOVE. It's almost certainly necessary. Eliminate anything in your life that reminds you of the affair. Most of all, don't talk about it or dwell on it!

Next, a bunch of the plan is not being followed, most importantly, exposing the affair. Dr. Harley says that is the FIRST step to recovery!

Finally, encouraging a wife to try to make her husband feel better when he is acting disrespectful or angry is a recipe for disaster. It can't be done - he will be like a black hole. You cannot negotiate with a terrorist. Until he puts away the nuclear weapons of demands, disrespect, and anger, she cannot and must not try to make him feel better. Period.

PLEASE DON'T ENCOURAGE WOMEN TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR HUSBANDS' ABUSIVE BEHAVIOR, EVEN IF THEY HAVE BEEN UNFAITHFUL. Dr. Harley doesn't, and we must not, either.

Lots of incorrect assumptions about my post there Marcos...

I bought an e-copy of Surving an Affair yesterday, and we've both already started reading it.

H and I had a nice, productive chat this morning. While the topic of the A did come up, we didn't hash things out and instead talked objectively about it and stated our needs. We made an agreement not to talk about it anymore. He said that for the last two days, anytime he's thought about it, he's been throwing a figurative brick at it, and moving on. I think this is wonderful, and it's been working.

If he hits a low point and tells me he's sad, we're both agreed that I will not take the bait and engage in talking about the A, but rather say something like, "okay, let's do something to change that. Lets go for a walk, do something fun." Change the scenery, create a lovely distraction, do something kind and loving for each other.
We didn't fight. I didn't cry (I think that's a first!!!!). We laughed, and joked, and said we love each other.

I feel like I can actually breathe today. Thanks for all your advice.

Just a quick question though. As I'm still a newbie to this website, what does FWW and SSL stand for? Former Wayward Wife? Secret Second Life? These are just guesses that seem to fit in the context but I just want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding.

But she is already doing what your wife does, and reinforcing her commitment to their relationship. She says, "I listen and give him reassurances". However, this does not work. She says, "But then it's like the more positive I try to be, the harsher he gets. And it doesn't end until I'm completely undone, crying, begging for his forgiveness, talking badly about myself". So you see that her "reinforcing her commitment" only makes things worse. Her husband does not stop until he has humiliated her and made her beg. His behaviour is abusive, and it is hurting her health. Dr Harley's advice would never be for her to to try harder to reassure him, or try in a different way, or in any way to appease his selfish demand, which is actually demanding her complete and utter self-abasement.

She needs to not engage with such rants (for that is what these materialisations are working towards). She needs to go away from him at the point where he brings up the affair. She needs to leave the room, and if she is in the car, ask him to take her home. She needs to reinforce the message that mention of the affair has ended for good.

This is a wholly unhealthy, and even abusive, way for him to behave, and if it does not stop almost immediately, she should separate from him for her own protection.

Please point them out.

Yes.

This is great!
What are you going to do if he doesn't keep the agreement?

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this post:

He is aware that if he brings up the A, I will not engage. If he persists, I will leave.

I am worried that the minute I stand my ground on this, he'll blow up. I'll be the heartless you-know-what who isn't being sensitive to his pain.

To answer your questions, Prisca:

We are both on FB. This is not a trigger. What IS a trigger online has been promptly removed, erased, blown up, obliterated.

I think we can try to work the no-nights-away-from-each-other rule. Depending on the kids' school schedule, we can tag along while he's out of town.

We're not sold on telling our friends and family. For one, we've fought very hard over the years to create strict boundaries with our families (a whole other story which I will not bore you with). Involving them in such a private and intimate matter will only set us back 11 years. His family in particular needs to stay far, far away from this issue, or we will never hear the end of it. And then so much for recovering.
Our children are too young. 9 and 7. I respect Dr. H's views on this, despite not agreeing with it. I'm not completely closed to the idea, and so we still have time to discuss this before they become teenagers. Our main concern is hurting them. Teenagers are not mature adults. They are not always rational. And they have enough to deal with (puberty, dating, school, self esteem, ect...) without having this thrown on top of it. I'd sooner have this talk with them when they are adults, maybe when they enter their first serious adult relationship.
Another reason is that I've known many friends and famiy members who have learned about their parents' infedelity during their childhood or teenage years, and all it did was create animosity, hatred, and disrespect toward that parent, and the relationships have still not healed from it. My H, despite his downfalls, cares too much about me to even risk that happening with our kids.

As for friends, this is where I'm a bit more open to it. We have some sets of friends we see a lot and don't want to ruin the closeness we have with them. But what are your thoughts of us each choosing one friend each to open up to about it? Then we at least have someone else to talk to about it if we need to.

Between going for walks (which includes conversation and affection), and skiing (recreational companionship), we do get about 15 hrs out of the house of UA per week. And our sex life is not suffering despite our issues. It's only gotten better. (Is that common?)

Sorry for the long replies. I realize you don't all have time to read through everything...I'll do better to keep things brief.