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#2879168 03/29/16 04:45 PM
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Oh, the things I could write. I am hear for advice. My marriage is very weak. We have never experienced recovery and I know that is a root cause but I have hung on. The issue now is that my wife's mother is ill. The illness is treatable but not curable. Maybe six months maybe five years. Already I have become the villain in my wife's eyes. Its so hard to hang on. Last week after four days where my wife had a total of less than four hours sleep total I made the error of telling her I would not allow her to make the 90 minute drive from the hospital to our home (I would drive). My wife was stumbling, slurring words and not comprehending instructions from hospital staff. I was terrified for her. I took her car keys and said I will drive you home. I thought that was the end of the issue. I was trying to avoid an argument. Instead I unleashed a thunderbolt of anger and screaming at me in the hospital lobby. I wouldn't do it again but it happened. Since that time I have attempted and apology and gotten nothing but a stream of anger. My 16 year old son even took me to the side and apologized for his mother's behavior. I will get over this (I think).
But it is obvious I am going to take all my wife's anger at life right now and I don't know how to deal with it. How do I make it easier for her without rolling into a ball in the corner and just taking it? Or is that the best thing I can do given the circumstances. I should tell you that my mother in law has been a friend and supporter of our marriage and more specifically me. She is far too ill to be involved in this now.
Maybe with my wife seeing her dying she has no reason to hold back on me? I have lived with so much criticism so constantly... Even my recent attempt to keep her safe (not really any different than taking the car keys from a drunk) has been interpreted as me being mean and and uncaring at the worst time in my wife's life.
Just guide me please. I need to support my grieving, angry wife but I need to survive too. My 16 year old needs me in his life and at home. I will hold on. If my grieving wife divorces me I can let go.
I just want advice on what is the best way to try and support my wife and hang on until whatever happens, happens.
I used to think I was a good man. Maybe I am not anymore.
Hurting Turkey

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Originally Posted by hurtingturkey
Oh, the things I could write. I am hear for advice. My marriage is very weak. We have never experienced recovery and I know that is a root cause but I have hung on. The issue now is that my wife's mother is ill. The illness is treatable but not curable. Maybe six months maybe five years. Already I have become the villain in my wife's eyes. Its so hard to hang on. Last week after four days where my wife had a total of less than four hours sleep total I made the error of telling her I would not allow her to make the 90 minute drive from the hospital to our home (I would drive). My wife was stumbling, slurring words and not comprehending instructions from hospital staff. I was terrified for her. I took her car keys and said I will drive you home. I thought that was the end of the issue. I was trying to avoid an argument. Instead I unleashed a thunderbolt of anger and screaming at me in the hospital lobby. I wouldn't do it again but it happened. Since that time I have attempted and apology and gotten nothing but a stream of anger. My 16 year old son even took me to the side and apologized for his mother's behavior. I will get over this (I think).
But it is obvious I am going to take all my wife's anger at life right now and I don't know how to deal with it. How do I make it easier for her without rolling into a ball in the corner and just taking it? Or is that the best thing I can do given the circumstances. I should tell you that my mother in law has been a friend and supporter of our marriage and more specifically me. She is far too ill to be involved in this now.
Maybe with my wife seeing her dying she has no reason to hold back on me? I have lived with so much criticism so constantly... Even my recent attempt to keep her safe (not really any different than taking the car keys from a drunk) has been interpreted as me being mean and and uncaring at the worst time in my wife's life.
Just guide me please. I need to support my grieving, angry wife but I need to survive too. My 16 year old needs me in his life and at home. I will hold on. If my grieving wife divorces me I can let go.
I just want advice on what is the best way to try and support my wife and hang on until whatever happens, happens.
I used to think I was a good man. Maybe I am not anymore.
Hurting Turkey
ht, none of this is clear to me. In what way does your wife's mother's illness make you the villain of the piece? What is your wife doing and saying to you that shows that she thinks you are the villain with respect to your MIL's illness?

I can see that she was angry about the incident with the car keys (and taking them away was the right thing to do; you must put POJA aside when health and safety are at risk), But why is she still angry with you today? It can't just be because of that incident. And now that she should have had time enough to calm down and see what really happened, why does she still see what happened as an example of your being "mean and caring at the worse time in your wife's life"?

"I have lived with so much criticism constantly" - but criticism about what? Has this been going on for longer than your MIL's illness?

You started two threads in 2011 saying that you were filing for divorce. What happened to stop that? Why are you still there today, experiencing your wife's angry outbursts?

Why did you "never experience recovery"? What were the recovery steps that you never undertook?

Have you read Dr Harley's article about dealing with a nagging wife?

Please try and answer every question. There is a lot to try and understand here.


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Sugar Cane:
1. I have been told as recently as last evening by my wife that I deliberately "picked a fight (with my wife on the worst day of my wife's life) in order to make her feel bad. By the way, my response last night was to very quietly and very gently say "no, I was worried about your safety" and then I left the house by taking the dogs for a walk. I can only assume my wife believes that I am the villain in her life. That has been going on for a long time.... And it doesn't make sense. I am often blamed when things go wrong for her. There are so many examples over the years... (and I feel guilty answering this question as if I am complaining - I don't do that). Example: My Wife receives speeding ticket. It is my fault because I had called her to remind her we had a dinner party to attend and she needed to be home by 6PM. Example: My wife's close friend who lives in another state did not visit my wife when she was visiting family who live near us because our home is not "inviting" and because I haven't finished the renovation work to make it nice and because I haven't finished the landscaping on the outside to make it have curb appeal (note that we have owned this home less than two years, I have easily put 70% of my weekends into renovation work that I perform including two new bathrooms and I have started a new kitchen in a different part of the house and that I have removed six large trees, restored the lawn and removed all the over-grown shrubs around the home and replaced them with small shrubs that will need two to three years to reach a nice size as we could not afford full size shrubs). Example: my wife failed out of nursing school several years ago and it was my fault for not doing more work around the house so that she could study more. Example: I don't have the high income job I used to have because I am too heavy (I am 220 and 5'11") and therefore unattractive to employers and because I am unwilling to take jobs offered 1,000+ miles away from home (She won't leave the region we live in now). Final Example: Years ago I had a pretty good temper (I have no excuse and won't ignore that I did) and would yell when we argued. I have not done that in many, many years - spent years in counseling and with a support group to break the habit etc.. I did break the habit.
The Criticism is near constant. What originally attracted me to my wife is that she appeared to think highly of me and often complimented me. It felt so good. For at least the last ten years of our marriage I am criticized about the groceries I buy, how I dress, my haircuts, my parenting, even my decisions on the job when I discuss what I am doing at work. I am teased (negatively) about my cooking, my cleaning, my teeth aren't white enough, my weight, what I eat, and my grown children (from my first marriage). Over the past three years I have paid for my wife to attend college again and she graduated in February of this year (and I am happy for her). I was criticized for not helping her enough (ok I will admit it... I wrote dozens of papers for her, I took seven on line courses for her - I never cheated when I went to college).
I stayed with my wife for four reasons: 1. My 16 year old son. 2. Maybe I deserve this because of my history of angry outbursts. 3. I feel completely unlovable and I will admit to being afraid to be alone because no one could ever want the broken me that is here. 4. I am a loyal dog. I know I am being beaten but I am a very loyal person. Mostly now, I stay because I believe my son needs me. He is growing independent fast but I can still model certain good things for him. If I leave I fear he will make negative decisions in his pain. I am trying to prevent that from happening at this time.
And I stay because I keep hoping that someday my wife will see that she has someone who has loved her and tried their best to take care of her.
We never experienced recovery from my wife's affair because she will not admit to it. Period. I don't feel the betrayal pain so much anymore - eventually I found confirmation evidence. Wife will not attend counseling ("I am the problem").
Yes, I have read (just re-read it) Dr. Harley's nagging wife article. I feel compelled to stay in the marriage and I just want to minimize the abuse I receive and try to keep my wife (who I know is moderately deranged) as supported as possible so that my son does not suffer. I often fantasize that the best thing I can do to keep the family together is to roll myself up into a ball and just take the bashing. I am not a martyr. I am just a man. I am not always perfect. I am fat (eating has become my only pleasure besides watching my son play soccer and though I know that is wrong it is factual and I am being honest) and I wasn't until the past three and one half years. I just want to survive and try to be supportive. I know what it is like to lose a parent (I lost mine 20 days apart 14 years ago)and my Dad was my closest friend. It was my currently ill mother in law who gave me the support and shoulder to grieve on when I lost my parents. My wife could not handle listening to my grief and her mother knew that and told me she could.
I am hurting for my mother in law in her illness too.
Sometimes I just feel so completely inadequate. Maybe it is me and maybe I am just not good enough.
Outside our marriage, everyone seems to love my wife's bubbly, helpful, upbeat and caring traits. I have had neighbors tell me that she is their angel.
All I can tell you is that I often try to place my wife on the proverbial pedestal. I tell everyone around me and my grown children how wonderful she is. And she is. Too everyone but me.
I just need to know how to survive and minimize getting verbally beaten. What's wrong with me? I know some of you will just say I don't have the guts to divorce her. Well, maybe I don't. I am asking what is the next best thing to help her get through this and to help me get through this without constantly being made into a villain in her mind.

Hurting Turkey





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Since your wife has never given you any information pertaining to her affair, even the most important which is who the affair was with, it is possible that she has had continued contact with her AP over the years. Generally, when a WS hides the identity of the AP it is because they are someone who is regularly involved in your day to day life, a friend, family member or coworker.

Even if the affair is not still on, her continued contact will keep her in a fog and create a contrast effect for you, making her more critical of what you do.

But it also sounds as if you dismiss and make excuses for her criticisms, rather than to make the changes necessary to make her happy. For example, it seems as if she has complained about your weight issue. What have you done to correct this?

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Unwritten: I don't know if the affair has just gone deep but I do know who it was with and I don't believe he is involved with her any longer (out of area now). Could there be another? I guess but I don't sense that and I knew intuitively years ago when it happened.
As for the weight issue... I lost the weight (50 pounds) and ran a bloody marathon and the criticism did not stop. I was running six miles a day at lunch at work to avoid losing family time. I was told "You will gain it all again" and that "I was too expensive to feed when I was hungry at dinner from running." I was also told that the friends I ran with were "a bad influence on me, and that I was showing off for the woman at work". I never told anyone what it was like with my wife and honestly, other than running for an hour at lunch with several guys, I didn't socialize with them. I will be honest. I just quit running when the marriage didn't change. Now I am in a different job and cannot do that running at lunch. My wife is not in shape herself. It is a little strange to be honest.
I could lose the weight again but I will be criticized for the time I take running in the early morning or evening at home (you aren't making breakfast for us or you aren't available in the evening). I will admit my weight is an irritant to my wife. I know that. I will even admit that sometimes I eat just because I know my weight bugs her. Writing that convinces me I am a louse. But it is true.
Making her happy? She says in 18 years she has never been happy. I didn't have a weight issue until recently. I cook, I clean, I try to do what she asks when she asks. I just don't know how to help her now that her mother is ill and I want to avoid the criticism. New Example: I was asked to fax something for her this morning. I was at the office at 7:30. My boss came in and we met for 90 minutes. When I texted my wife to tell her I sent her fax she criticized me for not sending the text first thing. There is no making her happy and she never does this to anyone other than me. Since yes I still monitor her phone she even complained to one of her friends that "I forgot to fax an important document for her for several days (total fabrication and exaggeration)!" My stomach used to hurt when I would read these complaints about me to her friends. Now it is just "normal" to read this stuff. I sometimes read it as "she is stuck on anger" with me and can't stop herself. I can handle the criticism to others. It is when it is directed at me or in front of others that it gets to me.
As for other criticisms what have I done to respond to them? I try hard to be perfect. I have even been criticized because she got a grade of B+ instead of an A on a statistics course. She told me that I didn't care enough about her to get her an A. Yes, it is that bad and I could give your hundreds of examples more. Yet I feel bad writing it down. I know, I am just stupid and gutless to keep taking this. No wonder she doesn't respect me you will tell me.

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You have been here for several years. What have you done to learn the MB concepts and implement them in your marriage? How much UA time do you get? What are your wife's most important needs and how are you working to fill them?

It sounds like you are (still) at a very frustrating place in your marriage. But, just like with weight loss, it doesn't happen by complaining about it and implementing no change. The great news is that Dr Harley has a way to fix all of the problems you have identified here.

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You cannot rely on 'intuition' to tell you if there is an affair or not. What type of transparency do you have? Do you have access to your wife's accounts, phone, etc?

Do you understand that even if there is no affair going on, just by being in contact with her AP, she will remain in the fog?

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I am completely transparent excepting this query of this group. When I attended therapy I even summarized my sessions for my wife. She knows I feel inadequate in her eyes. I have tried to get her to attend counseling and we own the course but she will not invest the time.
If I did not attempt UA time, we would have none by her choice. It is NEVER a mutual idea. Perhaps we average two hours of UA time a week. Maybe less. When we are home together she chooses her hobbies, pintrest, facebook or TV over doing things with me and I do ask. When I push for more UA it turns argumentative so I don't. I have access to what I know about. I have little or no trust so there could be another phone but I don't sense that. I could be wrong. I hope not. She could be in contact with her AP or another and at this point I would not know.... I don't think that is it. I think she just detests me.
Her Needs are: Financial Support (I earn 1/3 what I earned at one time), Domestic Support (I really do that pretty well I think), Family Commitment (Absolutely committed to that and much more available with current job), Honesty and Openess (I try but don't get asked much - often get told that I am a liar and I resent that), Physical Appearance
No, I haven't thought about fog if she still talks to her AP under the table. She definitely tries to not be transparent.
Ouch Unwritten, not everybody can lose weight when they want to. It isn't easy when food becomes the only pleasure you have left in life because your wife treats you like you are POS. But I know you are just being straight with me.

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I am using the weight as an example of dismissing her complaints. But you have cited several complaints on here that could also be used, along with your rationale as to why they are not valid complaints for the most part.

It is very possible she is very bitter and in great conflict with you. Most marriages come here in that state. Since you cannot control her actions, you can only work to clean up your side of the street though and entice her back into the marriage.

The great news is that she does complain, which gives you more of a roadmap of what to work on.

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Originally Posted by hurtingturkey
She definitely tries to not be transparent.

What does this mean?

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Whatever I know is because I have been reduced to figuring out on my own. I know her computer passwords because I hacked the computer(s). Same with her e-mail, text etc. Mine are all tacked up next to the computer at home including my work computer. When I travel with work my work itinerary is sent to her in advance. All my expense reports are printed for her. I travel an average of 3 days per month. All my receipts are brought home and explained.
Unwritten, if what you are going to tell me is that my weight is the issue I am going to say I don't believe it because when I lost the weight nothing changed except when I was in better shape and running I wanted SF more often which just became another irritant for her and frustration for me. I could play amateur shrink and suggest it goes to her poor relationship with her father -he lives close by (15 minutes) and she has not visited him in three years. I have taken him to healthcare appointments and twice to be admitted to the big hospital 90 miles away from us. She calls him perhaps four times a year.... His sin, he divorced her mother for a younger woman when she was a teen and it forced her to have to go to work which is why she is just now a college graduate.
But I digress....
What you are telling me is I can best support my wife and keep from being verbally lambasted is to support her needs. I fear the big one is Money. I can't earn the kind of dollars I once did without leaving my family behind (she won't leave this area) and moving myself to where the jobs are. How do I have a marriage and do that?
Does Dr. Harley truly tell spouses that to stop being abused by their spouse they must lose weight and move 1000 miles? I don't think I can do that.
Maybe I am just wasting your time. And I feel tremendously guilty talking about my wife in a negative way.
I am trying to support her.
I want to support her.
But being blunt... Who is there for me? Right now its the dogs (thank goodness for their love). What if one of my needs is financial support and the $83,000 I have paid for my wife's college over the past eleven years has taken that away from me? The only need of mine being met is that we have a wonderful son who deserves to see his parents' happy with one another.
How do I do this alone? Maybe I am just so tired I can't make any sense. Maybe I have stopped trying to save the marriage and have just been trying to save my sanity.
I will admit it. I am lost. Maybe I am just as bad as she says I am. I am sorry if I have wasted your time.

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Originally Posted by hurtingturkey
I will admit it. I am lost. Maybe I am just as bad as she says I am. I am sorry if I have wasted your time.


Everyone arrives at MB with their marriage in the sort of shape yours is now in. Many have infidelity to deal with too. For me there was a magic moment when I heard a married couple talking disrespectfully to one another and realised that this is what my children were hearing and mirroring every day. Disrespect creeps up one day at a time, like weight gain until it destroys the love between you.

You are in the right place and you absolutely can make this work but you have to take action rather than vent. Did you read what unwritten wrote to you? Dr Harley often tells spouses to move 1,000 miles by the way.


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Instead of apologizing for wasting others' time, why don't people make everybody's time count for something by doing the program?


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Your posts are really difficult to read and understand, but I can gather this much:

There are areas where you have not made much of an effort to meet her needs, and there are areas where you seem to have tried, but not succeeded.

However, even though you might meet her needs poorly, or not meet them at all, she does not have the right to be verbally abusive to you. If I understand correctly, she screams and rages at you, and much of the time, in your words, she seems to despise you.

It is unacceptable for her to unleash harsh words and verbal abuse on you. Int is also counterproductive:

"Demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts should be completely eliminated from a couple's conversation with each other. They do not help couples solve marital problems. Instead, they prevent those problems from being solved and drive away the only person who can help solve them. Furthermore, they destroy romantic love, the key ingredient for a happy marriage."

Dr Harley says that, at this stage, your response should be:

"The right way for a husband to approach a demanding, disrespectful, and angry wife is to try to temporarily look past her inappropriate way of expressing herself, and try to deal with the complaint in a respectful way. But this is where her cooperation is absolutely necessary. When he's willing to address her complaints the right way, she should somehow restrain her temptation to be abusive toward him. Instead of regarding her abusive methods as the only effective way to get his attention, she should regard his willingness to negotiate with respect as something they should both do."

And,

"How to get the ball rolling

Are you married to a nagging wife? Or does your husband ever accuse you of being a nagging wife? There's a simple way to overcome that problem in your marriage, but it will take the cooperation of both of you.

As a wife, you should put an end to demands, disrespect, and anger whenever a conflict with your husband arises. And don't bring up mistakes of the past. Focus your attention on the problem at hand. Offer your husband the opportunity to discuss it with respect, agreeing to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement until it's resolved. And your husband should have the same right to raise issues with you, without you becoming disrespectful or angry with him.

As a husband, you should address every complaint your wife makes with patience and kindness. You should enter into a discussion with her regarding every issue she raises, and do it without any disrespect or anger on your part. If you think that she has so many issues that you feel overwhelmed by them, organize them together and set priorities. Focus on the three that top her list, and when they are resolved, work your way through it."

You have made your situation worse than it need be by being defensive about her complaints about you. You need to address these complaints systematically. Your goal should be to eliminate the cause of each complaint.


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Thank you everyone.

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Originally Posted by hurtingturkey
Unwritten, if what you are going to tell me is that my weight is the issue I am going to say I don't believe it because when I lost the weight nothing changed except when I was in better shape and running I wanted SF more often which just became another irritant for her and frustration for me.

Nowhere have I suggested your weight is the issue. I have suggested that your dismissing of her complaints and excuse making are one of many issues, one that YOU can control.

It is very likely that your wife does not feel romantic love for you at this point for a variety of reasons. You can change this by implementing the Marriage Builders program. You can start addressing her complaints, and meeting her needs in a way that will woo her back to the relationship. Are you interested in doing this?

She is also behaving in an unacceptable way. But you cannot control her actions, you can only control your own. Are you willing to make changes to clean up your side of the street?

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Originally Posted by hurtingturkey
I could play amateur shrink and suggest it goes to her poor relationship with her father -he lives close by (15 minutes) and she has not visited him in three years. I have taken him to healthcare appointments and twice to be admitted to the big hospital 90 miles away from us. She calls him perhaps four times a year.... His sin, he divorced her mother for a younger woman when she was a teen and it forced her to have to go to work which is why she is just now a college graduate.
But I digress....

DON'T play amateur shrink. All you are doing is DJing your wife by deciding what her problems are. Are you familiar with DJ's?

Her having a strained relationship with her father after he had an affair on her mother and left his family for an OW is a natural consequence to affairs. It is unkind of you to suggest that her response to this tragedy is wrong in some way.

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Originally Posted by hurtingturkey
Does Dr. Harley truly tell spouses that to stop being abused by their spouse they must lose weight and move 1000 miles? I don't think I can do that.

You have been here long enough to know that this is not what Dr Harley tells people.

Dr Harley's program is designed to make BOTH spouses fall and stay romantically in love with each other, by eliminating lovebusters and meeting each others needs. If your wife has a high need for PA and you are not meeting that need, yes Dr Harley would recommend that you work to meet that need in a better way (which often does mean losing weight). If your wife has a high need for financial support and you are unable to meet it, Dr Harley would suggest you POJA ways to better meet that need.

Your responses seem to be defensive, and that is not going to help you learn the program and how to apply it to have a great marriage. Are you here to defend your own way of doing things, or to learn how to have a better marriage?

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Originally Posted by hurtingturkey
Does Dr. Harley truly tell spouses that to stop being abused by their spouse they must lose weight and move 1000 miles?

Hurting Turkey...

This is your lucky day. dance2

Dr. Harley gives a detailed answer to this type of concern on today's radio show.

Would you be willing to listen and come back to tell us how you see his answer fitting your situation?





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Work travel & meetings took yesterday away from me. I will listen to archive this evening. Thank you.
Unwritten
Trying not to be defensive, rather just honest. If in being honest that comes out as defensive, maybe I am and I need to look at that. Baseball / Softball batters that have been hit by a pitch have to retrain themselves not to duck-away every time an inside fastball is thrown at them. Maybe I do to.
Did nothing but listen to my wife very quietly this morning at 5AM. Worked hard not to show any negative facial impressions. Kept my mouth shut and just listened. Yup I took some criticism but I just tried to be empathetic.
Trying to support her and incorporate some of the reminders here.

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