BTW, there is no sense in wasting time on worksheets if he continues to travel overnight and continues to go to classes you are unenthusiastic about.

Kat, you are right that you have basically been in Plan A for a long time. Dr. Harley does not recommend that women stay in Plan A long. And look what he says here in the When to Call it Quits article that SugarCane posted:


You need to start these preparations YESTERDAY. Get ready, because there is a good chance your husband will not respond, AND THERE IS A VERY GOOD CHANCE HE IS DOING SOME TERRIBLE THINGS IN HIS SECRET SECOND LIFE THAT YOU WILL FIND OUT ABOUT.

1. Prepare for a separation
2. Investigate, snoop, and find out the full extent of what your husband is doing with other women when you are not around
3. Insist to your husband that if he wants to stay married to you, the overnight travel must stop. Don't discuss it or debate it with him. Just tell him this is the only thing you are willing to accept. If he says something about your son and sports, just shrug and repeat: "If you want to stay married to me, the nights apart have to stop, for the rest of our lives."

When he comes home, you tell him plain and simply "I am not enthusiastic about R class anymore." Definitely bring it up, but don't engage in a long, drawn out conversation with him. If he wants to argue, don't. If he wants to debate, don't. If he wants to ask why, don't spend any time defending yourself or your feelings. Just tell him you are not enthusiastic about it anymore, and leave it at that. Let him decide how he is going to respond.

Yes!

Thank you both for the plan. I read Sugar Cane's link but still felt stuck on what exactly I need to say and do. I will shelve discipline issues for now, thanks Prisca.

Thanks too for steps, Markos, and confirming I need to begin Plan B now.

1. Contact lawyer tomorrow for financial/legal advice? Shouldn't I give him opportunity to no longer engage in R class, overnights, and no time w me first? And give him chance to do MB w me? Tell him about MB- how?
2. Snoop, on it.
3. He's already agreed to no more overnights. But this was last tournament of season anyway, so I'll need to find a way to make sure this sticks. But he needs to agree for rest of our lives. Same with R w OS.

He has the opportunity ALL THE TIME. He can get started ANY TIME. If you prepare for a separation and he suddenly starts doing everything you need and becomes a wonderful husband, then you simply won't follow through with the separation - it's easy. The important thing is that you get started with those preparations RIGHT NOW in case you need them.

He has an opportunity to stop spending nights apart from you. You've already talked to him about this. He can stop any time he wants.

As far as telling him about Marriage Builders, you have already done that. Right now, "doing Marriage Builders with you" needs to start with him ending the nights apart and giving you complete transparency into his life. Worksheets and stuff like that don't matter right now - shelve that for now and focus on the fact that he continues to spend nights apart from you even though you object. The only thing you need to say to him is that you need for that to end.

Agreeing and following through are two different things.
I think it's going to be obvious if he intends to follow through simply by the way he talks about it.
Watch him ... Does he try to guilt you about your son no longer being involved in the game? Does he try to argue with you over it? Does he debate it at ALL? Does he try to make you feel silly or unreasonable?

Ok, but overnight travel will not be an issue for another 7 months. R class will be an issue this week. And yes, he will behave like someone who has lost something significant in their lives, because he doesn't know about MB or understand the concept of R time together or at the very least, not with OS. We did the ENQ in years past but he doesn't know about UA time or OS harm.

I'd like to give him a letter to read when he gets home tonight. I'll reiterate no more overnights, OS friends, including R class, and 15 hours a week together. I need complete transparency in his life (this he will understand more than anything else, he will agree to this). I'll tell him I'd like to revisit MB program together to learn how to negotiate and avoid conflict in our M, and start rebuilding a romantic relationship. I'll tell him that it's time I set the bar higher in our M for the sake of our family.

I haven't set this bar previously. I've given up getting him to meet my needs and instead have been trying to match his IB by working out hard daily w/out him, finding my own activities. But I'm lonely, and I know where that can lead and I want no part of that. When I've asked him to spend more time w me, and not go to R class without me, he says he will do more to meet my needs. He said on Friday night that he is interested in having a romantic relationship w me. He does not know how to put me first. I haven't required it. He thinks he's doing a great job by putting our "family" first, meaning working hard to provide and coaching. He was very confused when I told him how miserable I am.

Good idea?

Want to add that we used to effortlessly meet each other's needs and spend tons of time together. We were deeply in love for years. I still deeply love him.

But I agree, I can't accept the OS friends and neglect. It is extremely hurtful to me. I feel like I'm holding out for crumbs, hoping for any little sign of love or affection or conversation. And it feels very non-transparent when I go to an R class with him (he goes to several different ones, big community in our town). He knows women I don't, who seem surprised to meet me. It's so hurtful.

I don't think you've ever told us what "R" class is, but you need to see the very concept of recreational activity differently.

It isn't just that he need stop spend 15 hours a week out on dates with you. He also must not have recreational activities that he really enjoys (by definition - all recreation), that do not include you. So, it would not be good enough for him to find 15 hours per week with you, and still have time left over to spend time with his best friends. The recreational time he spends without you is creating a contrast effect. Dr Harley says that it is dangerous to spend your most enjoyable time with someone other than your spouse, and that is what your H does, with his coaching and other activities.

Quite apart from the "15 hours" concept, and quite apart from the issue of travelling, you and he need to find recreational activities that you both enjoy, and do those together - and they should be your only RC activities. He is not in love enough to be able to spend his most enjoyable time with friends.

Writing a letter is a great idea, especially for such an emotional subject.

SugarCane, I'm referring to the hour-long recreation class he does with a group of 99% women (there may be an occasional other guy). At first, it did not bother me. We used to go to a family gym and I got him into trying the class. But, he started going without me at different times that worked better in his schedule, with a small group of guys. We moved to a different area years ago, and he started going to a few different places throughout the week for the same type of rec. Some guys, but usually with their wives. He goes a ton, everyday. He meets women and talks to them after class. When I met up w him once a week, he was very distant w me, like I was imposing on "his" time. It was very weird. He's introduced me to women after the class whom he talks to and it is always uncomfortable. I get the impression they enjoy his conversation and skill and admire his ability (some have told me) and the fact that he has a wife may or may not come up. He likes having something totally independent of me. he would deny this. But it is very hurtful. He doesn't see the problem.

When I've done the occasional rec class and there was a group of men we both know there, he had no prob w this. I usually workout on my own, but I've tried various classes over the years.

The issue is he doesn't see the problem. I have now suddenly made it a problem. The overnights, R class w OS, lack of time w me, he doesn't see the problem. And, he enjoyed going with a group of men before we moved. It's just that very few men do this activity. It draws more women. It wasn't intentional, but neither are EA or PA. And it makes me very uncomfortable now that he's meeting and talking to different women and getting to know that community, totally independent of me.

It has always been this way though. Before, it was balanced with tons of time w me.

Now that we get NO time together and he's still doing RA with OS and talking more to women there than to me, and there is little to no ENs being met within the M, it's a problem.

All outside recreational activities will need to cease. His only recreational activities will need to be with you. And whatever ya'll choose to do together, it cannot include whatever this R class is. The R class is off the table.

Thank you, I'm glad to hear this. I get very emotional over these issues. I will do this. How to introduce MB concepts so he gets that we need help moving forward to restore love and so he doesn't think I'm just trying to control him?

Huge relief to me but he will see this as a selfish demand, a way for me to control him. I need to show him MB so he knows this is not just my trying to control him. There is a reason.

This is POJA. POJA is not a demand. It forces each spouse to show consideration for the other.

He enjoys his R class more than he enjoys his time with you. It is detrimental to your marriage. It is now off the table.

Tell him you want to do the Marriage Builders program together to build a romantic marriage. Tell him you need this from him. It will be up to him to decide whether he feels "controlled" or whether he sees it as an opportunity.

You are not controlling your husband, btw, by expecting him to act like a husband and not like a single dad.

You are absolutely right. Thank you.

No, don't try to persuade him, don't try to debate him. Just tell him you are not going to accept this any more, and be prepared to follow through with a separation. Go for broke.