If I explained the privilege/punishment scenario well, is only because that's how Dr. Harley explains it on his radio show.


One way to look at it is that when you initiate your veto, in a sense, you ARE being controlling. But it is a type of control that is a necessary evil to keep spouses together in the gunny sack of the 3 legged race. If he moves forward before you are ready, you are jerked around. You have to be in sync in a marriage partnership.
If you were in a business partnership and your partner kept ignoring your wishes and doing things you disagreed with, what would you do, Kat?

When your husband says that you are being controlling, try to respond with something like:

"I hear you and I still do not feel good about such and such thing."


He will be disappointed and have some resentment because you changed your mind. That is to be expected. Let him know that you can't wait until son learns to be respectful. I'm guessing that your husband probably has empathy for your son's plight and perspective because he has been a kid/son. But he's never been a mom or wife. Just saying.

Kat, I spent too many years in the same position as you, being "flexible" to avoid the controlling wife/mom label. Being subordinated to the kids was a byproduct of my husband's fear of disappointing the kids, combined with his belief that I "should naturally" put them first in the same way that he did. These problems were literally frying me and I responded very badly after a while which made things way worse.

Please try to stay calm and hold your ground. As we have said before, if he escalates bad behavior then you will need to separate. If you were to go into Plan B or divorce, he would find out very quickly that his opportunity for Kid related activities would diminish due to custody arrangements. It is in his best interest to make YOU his partner and not his kids.

And by the way, make sure you get your UA in. Try to pour on the love bank deposits to offset the resentment he is going to feel from adapting to the POJA.

Can you guys overcome the stress together? Go to the movies or something?

Just as a word of encouragement, you will feel so much better after you execute the plan of action we've all helped you formulate.

While you can certainly relax tonight, don't put it off from dread. One day becomes 2, which becomes a week and then a month and so on.

I was the master of analysis paralysis, and I really wish I had dared to step up to the plan earlier. I developed an arrhythmia which I attribute to hopeless-related stress.

I felt SO much better once I engaged in the action I needed to do. I had a hope that one way or another, change was coming!

I don't understand ... why are you saying he technically did nothing wrong? HE WALKED ALL OVER YOU. He violated one of the most basic rules in marriage.

Kat, he is putting everything before you. He puts sports before you, and he puts your kids before you. This is why your marriage is deteriorating.

Your biggest problem here is not parental alienation. Dr. Harley would tell you that your biggest problem is that your husband doesn't show you basic care -- he does what he wants when he wants, regardless of how you feel. He either needs to start following POJA, or you need to separate.

POJA will solve any "parental alienation" issues that might be going on. BTW, your son sounds like a typical 12 year old boy -- I'm having the same issues with my son and he's about the same age. And we have a GREAT marriage. We talked to Dr. Harley about this, and he has told us that a boy's brain at this age is just not mature enough for him to completely control himself. We're able to handle it, though, because of POJA.

And before you can successfully negotiate any consequences or deterrents for your son, the two of you must first agree to live by the POJA. There is no hope for a negotiation until he agrees and starts living by that policy.

Again, this is not a parenting board. Our purpose is not to teach couples how to parent their children. If you can help this couple learn to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement so that they may come to an agreement on how to parent on their own, then please feel free to continue posting. However, if you cannot offer such advice, please refrain from posting.

Prisca, I understand that he needs to agree to live by the POJA. Please tell me how he walked all over me this afternoon- what am I missing? It's hard for me to see it so your perspective helps me a lot.

He gave son the consequence I agreed to. Son still went to practice w husband but I didn't say i didn't want him to go (I realize I should have).

I am realizing this.

Kat, he is putting everything before you. He puts sports before you, and he puts your kids before you. This is why your marriage is deteriorating.

Your biggest problem here is not parental alienation. Dr. Harley would tell you that your biggest problem is that your husband doesn't show you basic care -- he does what he wants when he wants, regardless of how you feel. He either needs to start following POJA, or you need to separate.

How do I tell him this? Do I just come out and say it or when things come up, keep telling him "it bothers me when.." I'm asking because in the past, I'd wait until I was angry. Now that I'm applying MB, I no longer get angry and I'm trying to stay calm and nice. It is making a difference. He's responding better than ever. But I don't know how to tell him the big stuff, like what Prisca said above to me. I feel like he needs to hear this too.

It doesn't sound you have set aside a regular time each week to discuss complaints. So you just need to tell him as soon as possible.

This is not something you can communicate in a piecemeal, reactive way the next time something bothers you. That will not get your point across. This is a much bigger sort of complaint and it needs to approached as such.

You said earlier that your husband AGREED to follow the POJA but you don't think your husband understands when he is not following it.
Have you read the definition to him?

Wether or not he UNDERSTANDS is out of your control. You can help things by repeating simply and clearly that you do not agree to xyz thing happening. You need XYZ thing to stop. XYZ thing hurts you and you no longer agree to it happening. If you cloud the subject by more discussion, then you are both confused. So be clear simple, and kind. Then change the topic.

If he ignores your feelings by moving forward anyway, then your quiet but serious action SHOWS him that ignoring your feelings is a serious problem for YOU.

If he is disrespectful, if he keeps badgering, is incessant, or bullies you in whatever passive agressive way to get you to change your mind, then your quiet but serious action SHOWS him that it is a serious problem for you.

Have you found a local locksmith? Do you have an emergency fund ready?

You said:

and


You were not in enthusiastic agreement. You accepted a crumb, and your husband got to do what he wanted to do even though you still didn't really like it.

The default is that your son doesn't go. It's not something that you suggest or insist on, it's just the default. If you cannot come up with another alternative that you are both THRILLED about and that you like MORE, then he just doesn't go.

Don't wait until you're angry.

"It bothers me when you make decisions without me."
"It bothers me when you don't take my feelings into account."
"I need you to agree to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement with me. If you need help understanding it, here is Dr. Harley's email address."

DQ, thanks. So keep addressing each issue with "it bothers me when.." And stay on him. He read the POJA, but no, he doesn't know how to apply it in everyday situations. We are both trying to figure that out. For example, this happened yesterday evening:

Husband and older son went to practice. Husband met me afterward at other child's sports game. Older son not with him. I asked husband where son was. Husband said he was watching a friend's game. I told husband that I wished he would have checked w me first- I wanted him with us at our other child's game.
Husband: Why?
Me: Why do you think? (Not nice, I know, but seriously irritated by this point).
Husband: There's no way I could have texted you to ask you and waited around to hear back. I made the call to let him watch the game with his friends and head straight over to watch this game with you. Sometimes we need to make calls ourselves without checking with the other one.
As annoyed as I was, I actually understand this. I promised my other child that I would concentrate on his game, not look at my phone or get distracted talking to another mom friend on the team, like I have in the past. It's very possible that husband would have been waiting 10 min or more for me to reply to a text.
But I persisted.
Me: It bothers me when you make parenting decisions without talking it over with me first.
Husband: It was not a big deal! It all worked out, and older son walked over to join us anyway.
I walked away once he said it was not a big deal. He asked why I was walking away. I told him his response was bothering me. He replied that the way I was talking was bothering him too but he'd like to have a nice night with me. Can we get dinner with the kids? Where would I like to go?
We get to dinner. PLace is packed. No tables available. I suggest leaving for another spot. Husband says let's try a little longer, but if I want to go we can. I find a small table that seats 2. We have 4. Husband wants to make it work, but I say it's too small. Husband gets irritated. I ask him why he's irritated when the table is obviously too small. He says I'm getting worked up. 12yr old hears and agrees. I take deep breaths. Husband finds a good table. We get dinner, I'm quiet but pleasant. Husband is quiet but pleasant.
Younger child is visibility exhausted, He hit his head hard the day before. I ask if he's alright. 12 yr old says "Of course he's all right! You don't have to ask him if he's ok all the time." Husband says nothing. I'm irritated with husband. I tell son that I have my reasons, which I don't need to explain to him, and he's not to speak to me that way.
We get home, husband tucks kids in bed, and I go take a bath.
Husband comes in and is very sweet to me, very affectionate (not very typical for him).
We actually ended the night on a nice note, meeting ENs for both of us.

But this scenario happens often. Help?

Just bring this up to him at a time when no conflict has occurred? Like send it to him today? Thanks for the script, I'll use this. I especially think the last one could work well in this situation.

And I will stand my ground on suspending any privileges that follow a behavioral issue with our older son. That is what my instinct told me and I'm glad to know it's the right thing to do. Thank you.

DQ: a locksmith would take 5 min to find using Google for our area. As for an emergency fund, I'm on all accounts. We have enough saved to support a separation. But I would ask husband to do MB coaching before that or like Prisca said, reach out to Dr. H. My husband has grumbled about Dr. H in the past, but he seems open to his advice. He's very private though- would not go on the show, I'm sure.

Yes!

If someone told him that they'd give him a million dollars if he could make sure that his wife was in agreement with every single decision he made, no matter how small, what do you think he'd do?

Hi Kat!

This situation was just deplorable.

Yes, you need to write this out right away and email him.

First of all. When a spouse starts Lovebusting (such as not listening to you about wanting permission from both of you) *A simple solution can be no child is allowed to do ANY activity if Mom or dad can not be reached for agreement. End of story.

You could have gone straight home to the do nothing spot until you worked this out. Instead you went to dinner.

This whole dinner was so full of DJ-AO etc. AT that point the thing to do is to leave Kat. You keep just sitting there taking abuse from him, from your son etc.
NO- you don't just sit saying I am bothered and I don't want this over and over while they continue to abuse you!!!! You leave!
Go read Prisca what to do with an angry husband (and saying your getting all worked up and having your son do it to would constitute an AO to me)

Get away.... say I will not eat here and we need to go home now. Do not back down.

Then after all of that... you reward him with needs met. I don't know how you did that after being treated so badly- it would have made me sick.

You are at the point of saying we need to separate or get into the full time counseling now. This can not keep on going.

He'd do it. He'd do it now to protect our foundation that we've built. He doesn't realize that his IB is detiorating that foundation and I don't know how to convey that without threatening him. I didn't even realize it was his IB that was making me so unhappy until finding MB. I just knew that I was hurt and upset a lot of the time and wished things didn't bother me so much.