A dream of hers was to be a stay at home mom, which she has done since we had our first child 20 years ago, she thought my income of $120,000, our 5 bedroom house, our 4 cars and a boat, our nice vacations, etc. was below average and hence the 5 rating on me providing her a comfortable lifestyle, so we researched together what more I could do to provide a more comfortable lifestyle�turns out we make (I make, but consider it a team effort so it�s really both our money) more income as a single wage earner than 97% of wage earners in the US today and more than 83% of dual income households. So I say, �what more can I do?� and she says, "I don�t know." Remember, this isn�t about not spending enough time at home, with her, with the kids etc. because she agrees I�m a 9 in that category. So the double standard is: She rates me low, but admidts that I�m in the top 3% and likely cannot do anything better than that without sacrificing other higher values like time with family etc and risk work burnout so it�s impossible to meet her need WHILE she readily admits that she is not in the top 50% of any of my needs and sees or knows plenty of things she could do to improve that (she used to do most all of it) and doesn�t �want to� put in that effort and when we talk that out her response is �I don�t know why I don�t want to, I just don�t.� That does bother her to say, she cries, but apparently not enough to actually want to do anything about it.

I�m sure I�m not the only spouse in the world facing such an acknowledged double standard�so any place you can point me for more research and to help me figure out what to work on or how to re-approach it all again would help. She does feel bad, sat on the bed crying because she knows she used to want to do all the stuff in the 5 needs and then some, she does know HOW to do that stuff so it's not a skills/abilities/knowledge deficit she just can�t figure out why she doesn�t want to now because it�s nothing I�m doing wrong.

And here is another point, I have heard Dr Harley say that it takes about 8 weeks for someone to fall in love. if you can sell her on this concept, it will take no persuasion after awhile.

Our coach, Kim, told me something similar when we signed up for the program. "You should be in love in 2, maybe 3 months."

Tough spot and I sympathize with your situation and I'm gonna try to help you out but a couple statements and questions.

1. You are the one here posting so the advice you'll be getting here from everyone will be directed to you. Things YOU can do, say, implement, etc. to make things better for you AND your wife. It's not an attempt to blame you for your situation, belittle you or make you feel stupid.

2. If your wife is going to read and/or post here too, she should do so separately and not comment on each others threads. My wife posted here too and I so had the urge many times to clarify or share my perspective but that's just not helpful in this environment.

THANKS, IT CAN SEEM LIKE IT's ALL DIRECTED AT ME, BUT YES THAT'S WHAT I FIGURED WAS I'M THE ONE POSTING, SO I'M THE ONE WHO CAN CHANGE OR DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT OR NEW OR AGAIN OR WHATEVER.


Moving on......



When you say "we researched" it sounds more like "you researched" to prove her expressed need is completely unreasonable, hurtful, silly and/or wrong.

WHEN SHE GAVE ME THE 5 I HAD NOT HAD INDICATION PRIOR THAT SHE FELT THIS WAS A LOW NEED, SO I SAID LET'S GOOGLE THIS STUFF TOGETHER TO GET A BASIS OF COMPARISON (SHE DID THE GOOGLING AND FOUND SEVERAL GREAT SITES ALL CONFIRMING THE SAME THING IN THE END, QUITE INFORMATIVE IN TERMS OF COMPARISONS TO WHAT OTHERS MAKE), I WAS THINKING LIKE MAYBE I NEED TO BE MAKING A LOT MORE OR SOMETHING AND IT WAS A GENUINE ON THE SPOT GOOGLE SEARCH, NOT TRYING TO PROVE ANYTHING TO HER, JUST WONDERING MYSELF WITH HER WONDERING TOO IF OUR INCOME WAS TOO LOW AND WHAT THE AVERAGE MIGHT BE NATIONALLY, I FIGURED IT WAS NOT LOW BUT I DIDN'T EVEN EXPECT IT WAS TOP 3% SO THAT SHOCKED US BOTH BECAUSE IT FEELS LIKE WE ALWAYS COULD USE MORE MONEY...WE DON'T OWN YACHTS OR ANYTHING OR SPEND FOOLISHLY.


Needs don't have to be right or wrong. Maybe it's more of a want thing versus a need thing but that's something she would need to explore, discuss and evaluate on her own and not with you telling her.

AGREE, BUT SHE WOULD NEED TO "WANT" TO EXPLORE, DISCUSS, EVALUATE AND SHE DOESN'T WANT TO I GUESS?

Also, is that income figure ($120,000) a consistent number or are you presenting us with your "best year" number, in order to influence and win this debate. I could envision her having some financial insecurity issues if you (and her) have struggled with finances in the past and don't have a lot (or enough) saved (4 kids makes that tough to do) for retirement one day. She may have come to your marriage with financial insecurity issues from her family of origin. Further, if you've presented that number and it is "your best year", then I take issue to your approach to this "debate". Maybe you'll score a 5 in that need area the rest of your life and it'd "only" bump up to a 7 if you made $500,000 a year. Doesn't mean your wife can't be in love with you and your marriage won't be great. She doesn't have to come to your side of the table on this. Needs are negotiable - but when you actually fall in love with your spouse - you find your FEELINGS about all those needs changes. Financial needs isn't one of the most intimate needs and, when discussed rationally and constructively, in a better manner it'll be OK.

SHE IS AN EX BANKER AND LIKES TO KEEP THE BOOKS, THE 120K WAS THE AVERAGE OF THE PAST 3 YEARS BASED ON HER GETTING OUT THE TAX RETURNS AND US GOING OVER IT TOGETHER TO SEEK AND LEARN THE REAL NUMBER...OVERALL OUR GROSS INCOME RANGES FROM 92K TO 212K ANNUALLY OVER THE PAST 15 YEARS SO NO IT'S NOT THE HIGH POINT, IT'S A PRETTY RELIABLE AVERAGE. LAST YEAR WAS 145K. I WASN'T TRYING TO WIN THE DEBATE, JUST TRYING TO SEE WHAT THE SCORE OF "5" ON A SCALE OF 1-10 WAS BASED ON IN HER MIND. WHEN WE DID THE RESEARCH SHE SAID "I PROBABLY WOULD RATE YOU HIGHER, I HAD NO IDEA THE REST OF AMERICA WASN'T MAKING MORE THAN US REALLY. I'M NOT SURE WHAT YOU COULD DO TO IMPROVE ON OUR INCOME, WE NEED TO CONTROL MORE OF OUR SPENDING!" I SAID, "OK, LET'S DO A BUDGET AND SEE WHERE IT'S ALL GOING, WE DO THAT FOR THE BUSINESS, BUT NOT AT HOME" SO WE SAT DOWN AND DID THE BUDGET AND WE WERE BOTH SURPRISED AT HOW MUCH A FAMILY OF 6 CAN SPEND ON BOTH NEEDS AND WANTS. VERY ENLIGHTENING TO BOTH OF US.


Stepped away....

Moving on. One of the downfalls of Imago marital therapy and Nouthetic counseling is the big focus on communication. Mirroring and validation. it's all so tedious, boring and really unattractive. (Many) women just aren't attracted to men that do that stuff. Balance that against the (generalized) feeling that women just want their man to understand and fill all their needs without direction (magically naturally - because that's what soulmates are supposed to do if they are truly your soulmate). You end up analyzing your marriage to death. Communication might be better and you feel heard ...but nobody feels loved. Couples divorce but as better more understanding friends. That's where MB comes in. You've done the emotional needs inventory and that's a great starting point for SELF assessment, not the beginning of negotiations over the scores given and whether it's a double standard.

AGREE, TRIED TO ASK HER TO DO THE NEEDS ASSESSMENT AND READ THE BOOK TWO YEARS AGO, SHE SAID NO, THIS TIME ON JULY 4 AFTER BLOWING UP AT ME FOR SOMETHING SHE LATER ACKNOWLEDGED WAS WAY OVERBOARD AND NOTHING I DID WRONG, SHE WAS WILLING TO AT LEAST RATE THE 10 NEEDS. NOT SURE SHE IS INTERESTED IN NEGOTIATING YET, BUT SELF AWARENESS HAS BEEN RAISED AND SHE IS NOT HAPPY WITH THE SCORES SHE IS GIVING HERSELF.

If your wife won't take or make a self assessment that's her choice and you'll never change her feelings with logic and debate. Feelings aren't logical, they just are and talking about them, and "researching" how unreasonable they might be (and I'm not saying she might not have a case of the "I wants" over "I need"), just doesn't make her love you more.

YEP, I GET THAT, WE TALKED ABOUT THAT, THE QUESTION POSED TO ME BY HER WHICH BROUGHT ME HERE TO THIS FORUM ISN'T HOW TO CHANGE HER FEELINGS OR LOGIC OR DEBATE BUT RATHER SHE SAID "I WANT TO "WANT TO" DO ALL THE THINGS I USED TO, BUT I DON'T KNOW WHY I DON'T WANT TO" SO SHE POSES THAT QUESTION BUT THEN GOES BACK TO NOT WANTING TO READ THE BOOK OR REALLY EXPLORE, DISCUSS, THINK, TALK, ETC ABOUT IT.

I actually can't envision of mom of 4 kids wanting to have serious relationship talks all that much. 4 kids can kind of wipe of the "giver" in the best of us and put our "taker" into overdrive. Like Melody Lane pointed out. There's no fun in that and it's the enemy of good conversation (you said you were meeting her needs for conversation but your communications above sound very professional and businesslike - were you meeting that need truly the way she'd like it?).

WE DISCUSSED THIS, SHE SAID I DON'T UNDERSTAND OTHER WIVES WHO FEEL THEY DON'T GET ENOUGH OR THE RIGHT QUALITY CONVERSATION FROM THEIR HUSBANDS BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE I GET MORE THAN ENOUGH OF THAT FROM YOU. (REMEMBER, SHE RATED ME A 15 IN CONVERSATION ON A SCALE OF 10). SHE FEELS "SPOILED" TO HAVE THIS BE SO FAR FROM AN ISSUE FOR HER THAT IT'S A 15 OUT OF 10. I PROBED, "MAYBE IT'S TOO MUCH OR HIGH VOLUME BUT NOT WHAT YOU WANT OR NEED???" SHE SAID, OCCASSIONALLY, BUT RARELY, USUALLY IT'S GREAT.

BTW, I DON'T CONVERSE WITH HER THE WAY I'M COMMUNICATING HERE...IT'S FAR MORE PLAYFUL, INTIMATE, PATIENT, ENGAGING, GOOFY, RELATIONAL, COMPASSIONATE, ETC...BUT YOU ARE QUITE RIGHT THAT HERE I'M IN PROBLEM SOLVING MODE BECAUSE IT'S MORE SUCCINCT AND EFFICIENT...IF I WERE TO USE THE SAME TONE AND APPROACH WE USE TOGETHER IT WOULD HAVE TAKEN MUCH LONGER FOR ALL OF US ON THIS THREAD TO EVEN GET THIS FAR.


Finally, how are you both doing at "extraordinary precautions"? Is your marriage affair proofed? Your wife is expressing things that suggest she's not in love with you or just lukewarm towards you. SOMETIMES that happens when they had or have feelings for someone else. It can indicate they have a point of comparison. I'm not saying she did or is doing anything. Not everyone is having an affair. But, I believe sometimes people get led to Marriage Builders (by God) because alarm bells are going off in their gut (or subconscious) that there is truly a much bigger crisis in your marriage (another man) than originally anticipated. You can't ask her (and don't bring her here if you are at all suspicious) but if it's at all possible she's having an affair (is she hiding her phone, private on social media, really good friends with a guy... particularly an old boyfriend) then I strongly suggest you investigate the truth about your life by effectively snooping to confirm or rule out any suspicions. Again - if you are even slightly suspicious, don't ask her because if she's cheating (or cheated already), she'll deny it so the answer isn't helpful at all and she'll just become harder to check up on.

I ABSOLUTELY THOUGHT THIS EITHER MIGHT BE THE CASE OR WAS POTENTIALLY BECOMING A REALISTIC POSSIBILITY...HER MOM HAD AN AFFAIR CHEATING ON HER VERY AWESOME DAD AND IT HURT HER DEEPLY SO SHE HATES THAT IDEA. I HAVE REGULARLY CHECKED HER PHONE, TEXTS, SHE IS VERY OPEN AND TRANSPARENT AND ALMOST SPENDS 100% OF HER TIME WITH ONE OR MORE OF OUR KIDS AROUND OR WITH ME (WE HOMESCHOOL) BUT JUST TO BE AS SURE AS POSSIBLE (NEVER CAN KNOW FOR SURE) WE ACTUALLY HAD A VERY TENDER AND LOVING CONVERSATION ABOUT IT WHERE WE DISCUSSED WHAT IF THERE WAS ANOTHER GUY OR IF SHE REALLY DID WANT ANOTHER GUY AND SHE BASICALLY SAID REALLY THERE ISN'T AND I DON'T WANT THAT..."THIS RECENT BLOW UP CAUSED ME TO THINK ABOUT WHAT WOULD LIFE BE WITHOUT YOU, WOULD I WANT THAT, AND I JUST KNOW IT WOULD BE WORSE, NOT BETTER WITHOUT YOU, I REALLY DON'T HAVE ANY DESIRE TO PURSUE ANOTHER GUY OR BE PURSUED BY ONE". IF YOU KNEW HER, SHE REALLY CAN'T STAND THE THOUGHT OF BEING TOUCHED BY OR GETTING PHYSICALLY CLOSE TO ANOTHER GUY. COULD SHE BE LYING, OF COURSE, BUT JUST KNOWING HER THE WAY I DO, IT'S NOT SOMETHING SHE (THUS FAR) REALLY WANTS AND HER KIDS MEAN THE WORLD AND SHE WOULD NEVER RISK DEVASTATING THEM LIKE HER MOM DID TO HER SO I REALLY THINK (PLUS NO EVIDENCE ANYWEHERE TO BE FOUND) SHE IS BEING GENUINE ABOUT THIS. HOWEVER, IT'S EXACTLY WHAT I WORRY ABOUT IF WE CONTINUE DOWN THIS PATH ANOTHER 7 YEARS HENCE WHY WE ARE WORKING HARDER ON IT NOW.

You are telling her: "I need more time with you" which is annoying.

You should be telling her you want to have a passionate, romantic, integrated marriage where you are both happy and in love. SELL HER on that vision. The only vision she has now is a nagging, annoying husband who is competing for her time with other things she enjoys much more.

Do you take good care of yourself? Do you get regular haircuts, wear clean, pressed clothes? Smell good?

Most of the time, women think that you are meeting their needs when they don't realize that not only do you need to meet needs but without the dates of 15 to more hours a week- it isn't enough to stay in love.
So they are a little hopeless. They are sitting there going, wow, he meets my needs and I am still not in love with them. Its hopeless- no point in trying to do better cause he is already doing what he can.

BUT- the point is to keep requesting more UA time as she doesn't know that it is the very essence of getting the top 4 intimate needs mostly out of the house on the dates every week that makes the love and the wow come back.

Women typically won't try to really help out on their love busters until they are in love so the biggest key here IS the UA time to help turn this imbalance around.

Ignore what she is saying on how much you meet her needs. Staying and being in love for a women really comes down to how he meets her needs on dates for 15 hours or more a week.

[

I like the vision point you are making. But in 7 years of working on this I've not once until just recently "told her" I need more time with her...i've tried lots of "selling" or just plan it and try to do it, or soft sell, or many variations of that and she concludes things like "I feel like we are cheating time with our four kids if we spend more alone time and therefore I can't enjoy the alone time so it stresses me to try to make more of it happen when I can't really enjoy it feeling guilty...the kids are only with us a few precious years" or something along those lines (many variations but essentially she doesn't "want" to spend more time not because I'm pestering or badgering but because she feels it's already too much and there isn't enough time in the day to spend with the kids, activities, work, etc. already. I think the integrated marriage point is something she just recently has come to understanding that we are not both meeting each others needs and how great the imaalance was so yes it's a process to get here and it won't be an EVENT to Un-Get here...it's gonna take some time processing but she's asking me for help for the first time on how she can "want to, want to" again and that's what I'm searching for.

[. After 4 years of pleading with her to get some "me" time for herself she finally went on a girls weekend with her sister which she loved, but it took 4 years and me planning it for them and using miles for the hotel etc. so she didn't feel like it was costing too much (stealing from the kids' needs/wants etc) for it to finally happen...IMO she needs more me time for her, more friend time, more us time...but that's my opinion..!

[This whole post makes the most sense to me of everything so far. However on advisor says "keep requesting" then 3 others say stop nagging and being annoying, one poster says "you have to get her to want to" when the point is you cannot "get somebody" to want to if they don't want to without it feeling forced or annoying or frustrating them thus the opposite of the intended outcome.

What about her own acknowledgement that her needs are being met at a high level in every category but one

please do us both a favor and quit posting on this thread. thanks!

IamF, your situation sounds a lot like my situation with my wife when I arrived here.

Steve Harley encouraged me to "embark on a program of education" with the Marriage Builders concepts, and I did - I started listening to the Marriage Builders Radio show every day, I read the books, I worked here to learn (frequently learning by helping others), and I was able to turn my marriage around.

You don't need your wife to tell you what emotional needs to meet - you need to meet her emotional needs for conversation and affection, giving her your undivided attention fifteen hours a week, without being demanding, disrespectful, or angry.

What things are you wanting your wife to do for you that she is not doing?