Hi Guys

Last year I met a 40 year old single mom (2 kids 11 14), my neighbor and we went on a date together. There was great chemistry between us, but she was dating another man exclusively at that moment.

I had to work on the other side of the planet for 7 months and we stayed in contact.

She asked me on a date again this summer and was no longer seeing anyone, so I agreed. Again, she met all my emotional needs and that night we ended up in bed together. We started seeing each other 3 days a week on the days her kids are at her ex-husband's. (divorced 6 years ago)

It has been wonderful and both our love banks are overflowing :-) But something is bothering me: After 2 months she is still repeating textbook FREELOADER agreements, while I have been RENTING and SACRIFICING. (after a week basically)

I have never dated a mom before, so I expected there was some sacrificing going to happen in the beginning. But after being intimate for 2 months, I notice she is still a freeloader...
How can I bring this up without disrespectful judgments, demands and the whole renter/freeloader-conflict? Is it normal it takes that long to get to renter?

Remember from the book, it's easier to convert from a freeloader to buyer than from a renter. Stop sacrificing and start practicing finding the win-wins together :-)

And congrats :-)

Are you saying that this started as a no-strings sexual relationship from the word go, but now you want some kind of strings, and she wants to maintain the relationship the way it started - sex without commitment?

This doesn't augur well for a Marriage Builders marriage. And if you only want to date, have sex and not marry, that isn't MB. I can see that you are unhappy with the relationship, and this has much to do with the basis on which it started. I'd have thought that your having posted and read here for so long would have made you approach relationships differently. If you start by jumping into bed, you run into problems like this.

If you are not married to her, don't expect her to be anything BUT a freeloader. You can't expect a Buyer if you don't actually take the step and BUY.

Basically YES.

She has no problem being exclusive with me, but that's about it. It's freeloader for her all (the rest of) the way.

She was married to an extremly jealous guy and seems to compensate with statements as "I will never change for anyone but myself ever again"

I am following MB advice, ladies!

I want to marry and buy, I even told her on the first dates. But I know this lady for 2 months, you cannot expect me to ask her hand after 2 months when she is still reciting freeloader agreements, do you?

I was pursuing this woman actively!
She asked me as a chaperone on her friend's wedding. She introduced me to her brother and her friends. It was an incredibly romantic date and we ended up in bed together at her place. We spend the rest of the day in bed as lovebirds do. This was not a one night stand!

Dr Harley warns of not getting blinded by SF, neglecting your other emotional needs and advises against sex before marriage. She was meeting every emotional need before effortlessly and makes strange sounds if I dare to say the word marriage. :-)
What do you want me to do?
I cannot turn back time and we both don't see SF as "a bad thing" at all.

Actually I suspect gf is doing rather better than you on the MB stuff. She appears to understand the concept of honesty and also how important it is not to sacrifice. Stop trying to turn her into a renter! You will learn far more about her as a freeloader.

And ignoring this advice of Dr. Harley's is following MB ... How?

Gerold, in all seriousness, Dr. Harley says that dating people don't typically follow the POJA, although they can try it if they agree. But he says that you might discuss the question: "If we were married, would you refrain from doing anything that I'm not enthusiastic about?" That might give you some insight that could help you decide if you want to pursue this relationship further.

I know you don't think that abstaining from premarital sex is realistic, but many people do it, and if you'd follow Dr. Harley's recommendations on this you'd help to limit yourself to a higher class of woman. You got some great responses on one of your previous threads about this.

On a similar note, to me it's a red flag that she had a date with you when she was exclusively seeing another guy. Again, no rule that she can't do that, but it might give some people pause.

I did! She does not want to marry ever again. She said she does not want to change herself for anyone ever again. She said refraining from anything for a significant other is the same as locking herself up in a prison.


I am hardly meeting single people in my age-bracket. The times I refrained from SF, my dates ran away the next day as they perceive rejection. How is this going to get me more dates instead of less?

Wouldn't that be a good sign, though? Do you really want to develop a relationship with someone who puts out so easily? Can't you aim a little higher here?

So you are saying that having NO DATES AT ALL is better than having dates with SF, Melody

I would have had 0 dates in my age bracket the last 4 years!!!

- Zero -

How is this a good sign?
How is this going to lead to marriage exactly?

You have never met a woman that doesn't want to sleep with you on a first date!!!!!

I have never had one friend in my life who would!

What kind of women are you dating?

If you went out on a date and then they ran -you were dating.

Keep trying.

And she has already given you her answer. A freeloader forever.

Wow. She's definitely failed the job interview for marriage.


Sounds like they probably need to know up front so they go into the date without the expectation of sex. You might consider running a personal ad in the paper or online and specifically put that in the ad. That could fulfill the dual purpose of finding more people to date and also managing expectations up front. I know there are some number of women who feel that sex is expected in a dating relationship but who would rather avoid it, if only they could find a man who felt the same.

In a personal ad I would say something like "I'm looking for a non-sexual relationship until I get married." In person I might say something like "I hope it isn't too embarrassing to say this, but I wanted to make sure you know that I'm looking for a non-sexual relationship until I get married."

Truth be told I've never had to explain that because in the settings in which I found people to date it was always the assumption that people intended to not have sex until they got married. There are plenty of fish in the sea, but you have to make sure you're swimming in the right sea.

You do want to increase your dating pool, but not at all costs. You don't want to fill it with losers and freeloaders.

Yes. If you are not finding high quality women in your social circle, change your social circle.

You want to marry a hoe? Why not raise your standards? The end goal is to find a suitable wife, not to just go out on dates. When I have a job opening, I conduct interviews to find the best candidates, I don't just interview to be interviewing. If you aren't attracting the right kind of woman, you need to shop elsewhere.

I've never met a woman that had SF on a first date either.

All the women I dated in my age bracket (35-43) in the last 4 years, have university degrees and according jobs. With the exception of 4 (blind) internet dates (that did not lead to a second date).
ALL OF THEM slept with me within 2 weeks of the first date.

If I don't initiate, the women will...

This is Western-Europe, this is how it is.
I do not have a single male friend who experiences things differently here.

Try what I suggested about telling women up front that you aren't going to have a sexual relationship until you are married.


I am sure there are people who have the exact same experience here. I am equally sure that there are people there who don't have sex until marriage. And I am DEFINITELY sure that there are women there who would like to avoid having sex until marriage. I'm certain of it! As indiegirl (from Europe) described in a post to you on another thread, there are lots of women who only do this because they think they have to. If you tell them up front before you even go on a date that they don't have to, you are going to attract a lot of good women who will be relieved.

Do you have any friends who are churchgoers? You might ask them about their experience. Not everyone who is a church member abstains from sex until marriage, but there are many who do.

Markos, I have tried to tell girls up-front I do not want to have sex and just want to learn to know them... (I've think I written about it here some years ago)

IT HAS THE OPPOSITE EFFECT!

Once I started doing that women would invite themselves to my bed!
If I asked them why... they would say things like: "You are the only single guy I date that does not want to have sex with me."

SF in dating is like Shr�dingers cat: If you want it, you will not get it; if you don't want it, it will find you.