Good morning,

This is my first post. I found the marriage builders site yesterday in one of my many google searches to try to figure out how to keep my marriage from going down in flames. I read almost everything on it yesterday and introduced it briefly (the three states of marriage) to my husband last night. We are planning to work on the emotional needs questionnaire tonight.

A quick history: we are both 42 and have been married for 18 years, together for almost 20. We have two daughters 10 and 12. No abuse or infidelity in the marriage, no substance abuse issues. What we have are many years of avoidance of conflict and as a result a lot got swept under the rug. We had an especially stressful year in 2015 that carried into 2016, which promoted my husband to sit me down in April of this year and tell me that his feelings toward me have changed. This is deeply upsetting for both of us as we want to have a happy marriage and family with our daughters. We were cocky in thinking it could never happen to us.

We have been seeing a therapist for almost 6 months now. I have done quite a bit on my end to reduce stress in the house, take a more positive outlook and get rid of some of my stress related habits like angry outbursts and just being miserable all the time. I feel better and our kids feel better. My husband has been taking a more proactive approach around the house with the kids which has helped me to get where I am. He acknowledges that the house is a much better place. But he is frustrated that in spite of these changes, his romantic feelings have not returned. He recoils when I touch him. He said it's like an alarm goes.off in his head saying no, this isn't right. He's starting to worry that maybe we should not be together as his feelings aren't changing. I'm of course in a bad emotional place as I'm scared to lose this person whom I love so much. So I'm glad that I found this site yesterday.

My husband is caught somewhere between throwing in the towel and wanting to make it work. I think he is worried that nothing will work. He is firmly in the "withdrawal" state. He acknowledges that we could get on the road to recovery if he can start being the Giver (I realized I have been the unconditional Giver for the past couple of months). The problem. Is that he has some sort of internal block that is keeping him from being the Giver. We don't know how to get past it.

So my question is, where do we start? We are working on a strict budget right now to pay off some credit card debt so I can't justify the two online/home study courses. So it will have to be the books alone. Given our situation, which is a good place to start? And if anyone has any insight on my husbands internal reluctance to be a Giver, I'd love to hear it. It seems like if he wants to, he should just be able to do it, so I don't understand. But I'm getting real good at being patient and letting him work through things, so I don't want to be accusatory. That's an old habit.

Thanks for reading, I look forward to being part of this community!

Karen

Hello Southpaw, welcome to Marriage Builders. You are in the right place. I have a couple of questions for you.

1. does he feel he "loves you but is not in love anymore?"

2. do either of you travel? Do you spend nights apart?

3. what were the stresses that happened in 2015 that carried into this year?

Hi and thanks for the welcome!

In answer to your questions:

1. Yes, I think that's pretty much where he is at the moment.

2. Do you mean travel separately? He has a territory for work that he has to visit periodically and the farthest offices require an overnight. Other than that, no. We're together as a family most of the time.

3. At the beginning of 2015 we were working for the same company. This is oversimplifying, but we were part of a team that was building a company within our company through which to run all of our business (financial services firm). We were at the end of the project and business was starting to flow through the new division. He surprised me with a long weekend in Jamaica for my 40th birthday and while we were there we were planning some things for the future as we were both feeling pretty good about work and what we wanted to do with our lives past that project. The week after we got back, we found out through an all employee call that our entire company was being sold. His position was eliminated and my position was in jeopardy. What added to the stress was that my brother in law (sister's husband) was the CEO of the company. My sister was in a high position. It's a publicly traded company, so they weren't in a position to tell us about it ahead of time, but at the same time, they kind of left us hanging in the wind. That caused some MAJOR family stress that took about a year to resolve. I only recently got to a point where I could move past it and make peace with my sister. But it took a toll. During this time our oldest daughter was diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder at age 11. Then a bunch of ridiculous stuff happened. Our car died. Our pool blew out. Crazy stuff one after another. So we were dealing with a lot. I was angry and stressed all the time. I yelled at the kids, was just miserable.

My husband is a nice guy. He wants to do the right thing and does not want to hurt people's feelings, including mine. There were things that really bothered him over the years and I didn't know because he didn't speak up. He started to withdraw from me and I got resentful and withdrew to my own corner. I think we both thought this was just middle aged marriage, but can only speculate since we didn't communicate. All of the things that happened in 2015 just brought it to a head for him I think, where he finally had to let it out last April.

We have a lot of clarity in hindsight for the part that each of us played in getting to that point. My worry is that he is feeling pretty defeated and I don't think he's convinced it can be fixed. He has a real hang up of expectations I think, considering that we've only been trying to figure this out in the last 6 months and the positivity has only been getting into our house for the last 2-3 months.

Welcome Southpaw.

Do you have complete transparency in your marriage? Do you have access to each others phones, texts, email, social media accounts?

Hi! Thanks!

Yes. We've never actually discussed the need for transparency outright, but at the same time have never blocked each other from access so it's never come up.

I'm going to edit that to say that in the last six months we've both had text/email conversations apart from one another with our parents and friends that we haven't shared with one another. Not out of malicious intent, but just to get a perspective from the people who know us best. Again, not something that we made a collective decision NOT to share, we just haven't.

The reason I am asking, is because it is very standard for someone who is interested in or involved with someone else to decide they are no longer romantically in love with their spouse. "I love you but am not in love with you." This is because they have a new point of comparison.

The first thing to do is to rule out an affair. Can you access his phone or text history, to see if there is anything unusual? Can you access his computer?

This suggestion sends many people heading for the door here, because they absolutely cannot believe it is possible that their spouse would be in an affair. They refuse to snoop because they 'blindly trust.' Many times they are back much later after finding out the facts on accident, and it is too late to help them save the marriage. I hope you are not one of these people.

We are only suggesting this as an option that needs to ruled out, because if there is an affair you will be spinning your wheels trying to fix this marriage. A marriage cannot be fixed while there is an active affair going on.

Oh, I've snooped around, which I feel pretty guilty about actually. I've asked him outright when we've had conversations over the last few months. He has assured me that he isn't involved with anyone and hasn't met anyone that has interested him. I do trust him. But no, I haven't seen anything in his emails or texts or Facebook messages that indicates that he is involved with anyone. What I have seen are some emails back and forth relating to our problems which I didn't want to invade his privacy to read, but saw enough to know that there isn't someone else.

What I saw that did make me feel bad was a couple of weeks ago an email between he and his mom where he questioned if maybe we weren't meant to be together, should he resolve himself to keep the family together with the idea that maybe he won't find the happiness and love that we had before. On one hand I wanted to scream that hey, I'm right here and love you with all my heart, but on the other hand I don't think he would be fretting about wanting those things if he'd already found them with someone else. I mean, anything is possible, I'm not na�ve. But no, I haven't seen anything up to this point that would indicate an affair.

Who is he emailing with about your marriage?

His mom and his brother to a small extent. Usually when they initiate a "how's it going" type of message. I speak with my parents, and sisters. I've encouraged him to speak with someone about it just to get out of his own head a little, but I think he'd rather not talk to anyone else about it. Oh, and our therapist but we are together for that.

Can you take a quiet look at your husband's email, phone log, and social media accounts? Just do it quietly and find out who is a part of his life, both working and personal, and what they discuss.

Meanwhile, make sure you eliminate angry outbursts from your life. They are a big love buster.

Dr Harley does not advocate blind trust. The reason is because all of us are wired for affairs, under the right conditions any one of us could have an affair. So it is not smart for any of us to blindly trust our spouse.

I would stop asking him if he is having an affair. In the 6 years I have been on these boards, I have never, not once, seen this approach work. If someone is having a *secret affair* they are not going to tell you about it.

This means you need to take finding out the truth more seriously.

You have no reason to feel guilty about snooping. You are protecting your marriage and family, there is nothing wrong with that. The only reason anyone would have to be upset about snooping is if they were hiding something. My husband has GPS on my phone, and has full access to everything I own, and once in awhile takes a look around. I have NO PROBLEM with that, and do not think he should feel guilt about it at all. In fact, it makes me feel protected.

Don't feel guilty about snooping. Spouses need to know everything about each other and should be an open book.

The fact that your husband is saying perhaps you weren't meant to be together, that he has withdrawn from you, that he recoils at your touch are all red flags. Believe me, no one imagines that their spouse could have an affair. And most of the time, if a spouse outright asks if he/she is having one, he will lie about it. Don't rely on trust at this time. Snoop quietly, don't ask. Be sweet.... and snoop.

In addition to the list above, rule out a porn habit as well.

It is very common for someone in an affair to change the name attached to a phone number, so that if you see them texting or talking to their friend 'Joe' it is really 'Kim.'

Is there anyone he is texting or emailing that could potentially be a different person than you think?

You need to stop worrying about invading his privacy. You really need to get the facts here.

I have been looking through his computer a lot lately. I see what you're saying about not feeling guilty, but I do feel bad doing it. I've looked at emails, I've seen texts on his phone - all people and numbers that we know, mostly just memes and banter with some of his friends, and then work related emails. He doesn't hang out with the guys or have poker night or things like that. He's not on social media much, but I don't see anything out of the ordinary there. I've looked at sent and deleted items as well. He also has GPS on his phone and he works less than a mile from my office. I see when he leaves work and he makes no stops coming home. We are together almost 24/7 outside of work. Yes, it's possible but it would not be easy for him to do.

I've gone through the call logs on our Verizon account. All numbers I know.

Could it be with someone he works with? That he has regular access to at work?

Do you have access to work computers and emails?

No, I don't have access to his work computer since we work in the finance industry which is heavily regulated.

What do you mean "could it be with someone he works with"? I came here asking for help because we want to work on our marriage together and knowing very little about this man you are certain that he is having an affair. I mean, literally every single post from a handful of people have been affair related to the point where you accept that it's a given.

Let's assume that just maybe he is NOT having an affair and he is Not a raging porn addict. I have already conceded that anything is possible, but since I have no evidence and can pretty much tally his whereabouts 24/7, can we table that idea for the time being? Barring that, where should we start?

The thing is, SouthPaw, the red flags are there. He very well may NOT be having an affair. But it is a very good idea to rule one out, or all your attempts at saving/improving your marriage will come to nothing.

You are correct that we on this forum don't know you or your husband, but we have seen so many people come here with the signs you mention and that's what we work with first. You obviously had some kind of a funny feeling that something is off. Many times, those gut feelings are telling us the truth.

Your marriage can be greatly helped by using Marriage Builder principles, but IF your husband is having an affair, whether emotional or physical, it is going to hinder any efforts you might try. So at least try and rule it out. Meanwhile, eliminate any of your own love busters.

I'm not sure what else I can rule out. I've told you that I've looked at his emails. I've looked at his facebook messages. I've looked at his phone and have looked at the online number logs. I know where he is all the time via GPS. I've looked at his browser history. I can't access his work computer. All of his emails on that computer are logged and reviewed by his supervisor per industry rules. He has a strong work ethic and if he was having an affair, he wouldn't be broadcasting it to his employers and jeopardizing his job by using his work computer to do it.

You mention a gut feeling of something being off must have driven me to snoop. Not really. My husband is a thinker. I joke and call him Mr Spock, because everything requires logic and careful thought. He is constantly reviewing and considering things - but in his mind as he is a quiet guy. Checking out his stuff has been my way of trying to figure out what's going on in his head because I've been trying to find a solution. Not because I was suspicious of him.

I see what you're saying about red flags, and I'm sure on this forum you see it all the time. All I can tell you is that I've known him for 20 years and we spend 95% of our time together. We've never kept secrets. I can extoll his virtues beyond that to the point of several eye rolls who have seen it all before I'm sure. Yes it's possible. But my gut tells me that isn't what's going on here. If you're interested in exploring other avenues, I'd be happy to provide more of our history over the past few years if that would help to paint a broader picture of our situation.