I could use some help with EPs and resentment.

When the former wayward spouse complains of feeling like a prisoner by EPs, and expresses frustration at lack of progress with gaining trust, is the only solution to work harder on brainstorming POJA agreements that provide more freedom and met needs while keeping EPs intact?

Is the only way for type B resentment to subside to POJA these alternate solutions? Or are there situations where you just CAN'T POJA a solution that meets EPs, resulting in unavoidable type B resentment?

For the BS who is feeling threatened by the spouse's resentment and frustration of being restrained, how much effort should be put into enlarging the boundaries (relaxing EPs over time) to give the spouse more freedom? Does this come naturally as the spouse demonstrates trustworthiness? Does it take prodding of the BS in some way?

I read a lot of threads today on these topics but I couldn't find anything that I felt addressed it squarely. Maybe you can point me in the right direction.

Erastis, I've commented before that you shouldn't treat your spouse like a formerly wayward spouse, since what you did was a joint decision.

I would strongly encourage both of you to stop talking about the affair.

Does your wife feel that you've eliminated disrespectful judgments and other love busters, yet? I predict she will start to feel a lot better when you have done that.

Remember that it's never your job to educate your spouse and tell her how to tell. If you do, you'll sabotage your marital success, because it's a love bank withdrawal.

The alternative that takes away the Plan B resentment in this case is a fantastic relationship with one's spouse, so make sure you are providing that for her and getting really good at it. And make sure you aren't engaging in any love busters (including trying to educate her, which is a disrespectful judgment), or you'll make that goal take longer or never happen. She will feel better when she is in love with you again.

1. Could you be more specific about which EPs are under discussion?

2. Could you please stick to one thread? The way you continue to start new threads and refer to your wife as wayward appears deceptive when you remove it from the backstory that you pressured her into sleeping with other men.

3. Are you having good UA at least 20 hours per week?

Her resentment over being "restricted" will continue until this happens.

AO, DJ, SD, emotional reactivity, educating are no longer a problem. Just confirmed with Azurite that she agrees.

More than one EP is involved. One specific one we can use as an example is openness with other men. Azurite wants to go to a large convention-type event, at least half male attendance. I am taking off work to go with her and the kids one of the three days of the event. After this was POJAd, she added that she wanted to go a second day without me. She would have the kids with her. I was not in agreement with that. We brainstormed. Turns out her father wanted to go on a second day. I am fine with them going together. Appeared to be the end of a successful POJA. A week or so later it was revealed that she was upset at my lack of trust.

This is my understanding of rebuilding trust:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8121_trust.html

I am very saddened by her feelings of captivity or restraint, and it is very tempting to capitulate and just give her the freedoms she desires even though I do not trust her. Sometimes it seems that the type B resentment is not remedied by alternate solutions, or that it is less than type A. It is hard to not just give in so she can be happy. But, as Sandy advised today, capitulation is not the answer. That part I am more confident with.

I was just looking for input to make sure I am seeing all of our options clearly. I want her to be happy, but in ways that build our relationship.

Although I can see how having a fantastic relationship would help offset type B resentment, it almost seems like a catch-22 for us. The type B resentment works against us having a great relationship, but a great relationship is needed to avoid type B resentment. Maybe you can elaborate on that.

Previous 6 weeks of UA has averaged 17.2. Azurite has said she feels that a reasonable maximum is 18.

Is Azurite willing to post her perspective?

You are getting UA time. Is it the most enjoyable time of the week for you both?

Should she post on this thread or another?

On her own thread. If she doesn't have her own, then she needs to start her own thread.

Don't worry; her resentment is not making withdrawals from your account in her love bank. Only you can do that. Keep filling it!

I may be misunderstanding what you are saying, but I do not see how it aligns with this:


That is from MelodyLane's quote at:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2688015

Azurite also just confirmed to me that type B resentment from POJA definitely withdraws love units from her bank.


To me, that last sentence is kind of what I was trying to say. That maybe our only (or best?) option is to work harder on negoation. And further, to make sure we are being open and honest at the time of POJA when an agreed result is not truly enthusiastically agreed upon by one of us.

Azurite did give me a VERY helpful piece of info last night that I really have been missing the boat on in negotiation. In the convention example I gave, she said that I could have met her needs in a totally unrelated way "to make up for the resentment type B" she felt about the POJA we did. She said I could have just asked her how she'd feel about me taking her out to a mid-week dinner date the next week and that would have erased the type B resentment from the convention POJA. Wow. I did not see that one coming. In my mind, I haven't done that in the past because it seemed manipulative on my part. I asked her about that, and she said it wouldn't make her feel manipulated at all. That would be a very good solution to this if it works, and she is the judge of that.

The only thing that confused me about the "make-up" meeting of her needs to counteract the type B resentment, is that it seems to take something special. Not just a routine meeting of her needs. Otherwise, I could just do what you were saying and fill her love bank with routine things we are doing and that would counteract the loss.

My concern has been that I did see what I felt was type B resentment that was in fact gobbling up love units in her bank. And I have had growing concern about the seemingly cumulative effect of that. Hopefully this helps clarify what I was looking for.

I don't see anything wrong with your not wishing her to go to a "convention-type event with at least half male attendance", without you.

I think the mistake you make is in tying this to her former "wayward" behaviour. I don't think that is any more relevant than if she had never become involved with another man (at your suggestion), and I think you should drop the "wayward" label and rationale. Stop referring to it, to us, and to her. Stop implying it. Stop the underlying implication that she is highly vulnerable to an affair because she had an affair. It could just as easily be argued that you are even more vulnerable to an affair because you suggested swinging, or because you resent her affair.

If we're not happy with our spouse going to a convention without us (even though the kids will be there with them), then we are not happy, and that is fine. Our spouse needs NOT to do anything that makes us unhappy. Ideally, azurite would be so upset that she would make you unhappy, that she would gladly drop the idea of going without you.

The goal is not to work towards building trust, so that our spouse can eventually go to such events with our blessing. "Trust" doesn't demonstrate the fact that we love our spouse more than if we don't trust, or that we have grown or matured, or that we are not punishing our spouse for their affair. "Trust" isn't a good thing; a sign of a mature marriage. It isn't commendable. It isn't noble. Instead, it is a dangerous idea that we should not worry about our spouses socialising in mixed company.

Conventions, conferences, networking events...they are not particularly safe for married people to attend without their spouses. They are not necessarily designed to foster romance, but we should all know by now how easy it could be for attractions to develop when people do something that interests them, with members of the opposite sex present, without their spouse present.

If you could stop seeing your wife's behaviour through the "wayward" lens, and if you could make her love you a lot, you could get her to be so upset that you are uncomfortable, that she'd never go to something like this. Work on that.

Thank you. I understand now that I have this thinking and that it is a problem. I did not recognize it as a problem but I do now, and I reject it. And the words rooted in it will not happen again. There were a couple of times that this came to my attention but I wasn't quite getting it until you stated it plainly.


Harley defines what trust is by stating: Trust is the belief that your spouse won't do anything to hurt you and will be honest with you. It assumes a level of care that forms a protective envelope around you.

He speaks of it as if it is a good thing. What do you feel that the purpose of trust is? (How should it be used in marriage?)

To me, trust in marriage is a byproduct of A doing what Harley is saying - not hurting me and being honest. I have always believed that trust (evidence of past performance) is used as a basis to entrust more of something to someone (in business - more responsibility, less direct supervision, etc. In marriage - less accountability.)

Increased trust doesn't mean that accountability goes out the window. Trust but verify. I don't supervise a seasoned employee the same as I would a new employee on probation, because of proven performance (trust, right?).

I am not suggesting that I have an employer relationship with my wife, btw. It is just a familiar example.

This is all leading to a follow-up question that I have been waiting to ask: As a marriage grows strong, do EPs generally get relaxed at all? Wouldn't that be logical progress?


Wayward issue is now eliminated. So we are down to filling her love bank being the solution to my original question. But what about the type B resentment that builds while I am trying to do that? Negotiate alternatives better? Type B resentment doesn't matter? (It sure seems like it does.)

Thanks for the wake up call.

Where? Please cite this source. I have been here for 15 years and have never heard him say that. It doesn't even make sense and Dr Harley is very precise in his logic. In fact, he says the opposite:




If your marriage is strong, why would you want to make it weak? EPs should always be in place if you want to have a safe happy marriage. Do you want that? My marriage is very strong BECAUSE of the EPs, my H and I would never "relax" the thing that made our marriage strong and safe.

Our marriage means too much to us to take needless risks. Your marriage may one day mean the same to you. When that happens, you won't want to do anything to harm it.

Trust is the by-product of EPs, not the guide to them. Continue the EPs and the feeling of trust will not be lost. You are confusing the feeling with the action.

Another thing Dr Harley has stated about trust is "it is not a lack of trust that ruins marriages, but a lack of boundaries."

Just so you know my H and I are 16 years past his affair and we embrace EP's. Dr Harley and Joyce also practice EPs because they care about their marriage.

I have not read this from him, and I would appreciate a citation.

However, assuming that he did say it, you've extracted that passage out of context. Dr Harley could well be saying that "trust is a belief...(etc)"...but this belief is misplaced. He could be saying "It assumes a level of care...(etc)"... but we are unwise to assume a level of care.

The statement is impossible to interpret as it stands. Please provide more detail.

I've never read anything written by Dr Harley that suggested that EPs would be relaxed, however strong the marriage. He and Joyce do not have spaces in their lives where secret second lives can develop.

Why, after 2 years (or 20 years) of transparency, would you ever stop being transparent with your phone, and put a password on it that your spouse does not know? Why would you put a password on you PC, or open a new email account and not tell him or her? Why would you take the independent action of re-joining Facebook?

Why, having protected your marriage for 5 years after an affair, would you start going for weekends in Vegas with your friends? Start going to bars with them? Join a mixed running group without your spouse? Why would you "relax" any of the EPs - any single one of them - and make your marriage vulnerable?

Can you explain the logical reasoning that someone would undergo in order to do those things?