No, no. You are not on ignore and you haven't offended me. You didn't ask any questions in your post. When MelodyLane asked if I'd read your post and what I thought of it, I answered her question. You took the time to write. I should have given you the courtesy of my thoughts. I apologize.

It doesn't matter if it is deliberate or not, it is still flirting. And it still needs to stop.

Okay.

But you're married. And you must take your husband's feelings into account, anyway. It won't feel good until you are in love with him.

But you're married. You must learn new behavior to not send the flirting signals. Learning new behavior is always uncomfortable, no matter what the new behavior is.

The simple (not easy, but simple) solution is to stay away from events where there are men present unless your husband is with you.


Erastis is just as wayward as you are. Him bringing that up as a title for you will only feed your resentment. The implication that you are wayward at heart and must be kept on a tight leash or you'll jump into bed with the first man who smiles at you will also feed your resentment. The wayward title needs to go.

He shouldn't get into why he doesn't want you doing something. "Trust" shouldn't be brought up. It simply bothers him, and that's it. You don't need to know why -- if you start getting into why, the past will inevitably be brought up (even if it's implied). The reason why it bothers you for him to not feel trust is because it is bringing up the past. It is a reference to the affair. And it will drain you every time. So, don't go there. Don't talk about trust.

The issues you two are dealing with are issues that ANY marriage could have, regardless of whether or not there was ever an affair. They can be dealt with as if there had never been an affair. So leave the affair in the past. Don't even hint at it. Deal with the present.

Yes, I can tell a big difference in my desire to care for him when we are in a good place.


Agreed. It is getting easier to accept that - hearing it from neutral third parties is helpful. I need to change my mindset to focus on and enjoy what is safe for our marriage instead of feeling sorry for what I am missing.




This was helpful for both of us. He apologized last night for thinking in those terms, and we understand that the only difference between someone who has an affair and someone who doesn't is EPs.

This will be easier when you are in love. Feelings follow actions.

We went camping this weekend. Friday was great. There was quite a bit of stress leaving but we managed to come together and have a wonderful day. Saturday, we did several activities - a 5 mile round trip hike to a farm, then a trip into town for supplies. I had a great time overall and when the kids went to sleep that night, I was excited to have time alone again with Erastis. He was upset with me and after letting me know, went to bed without me. He said he felt rejected the whole day. I asked if he could let me know what it was that I did. He said that I did not walk beside him on the hike nor when we went shopping for supplies. Today, he said that I looked irritated when he was trying to talk me while I was reading by the fire. He said in general, that behavior of independence was carried throughout the whole day.

During the hike, I had walked with my daughter behind him. At one point, Erastis had gotten quite a bit ahead of us (our daughter tends to walk slowly) and I'd asked him to wait for us. I very much enjoyed the time I spent with her and did not see it as independent behavior. As we got near the camp and the kids left to play, I walked with E the rest of the way back and enjoyed talking to him. At the store, he snapped at me for walking behind him when I had the list of supplies. While these two things bothered me a little, neither was enough of a problem to ruin the evening for me.

I was hurt and shocked to realize he felt like almost the entire day was spent in disunity, and very disappointed that he did not want to take advantage of the time we had alone to reconnect. I told him that I would have liked for him to let me know during the day that things weren't going well so that I could have had the chance to change and not ruin our evening together. My preference is that instead of complaining ("It bothers me when you walk behind me") is that he either state what he would like ("I really enjoy it when you walk beside me") or that he take the initiative to walk beside me, hold my hand, and introduce conversation. His preference is that we walk together by default, and that if I want to talk to one of our kids, I ask how he feels about it and we branch off then come back together.

Things went a little better Sunday. I made a point to walk beside him when we hiked again. That evening, he said that he felt like I was just doing it because I was supposed to and not because I wanted.

So I would guess that everyone would say that he is right about how we should operate. That my default behavior should be for us to be a unit that occasionally separates after I've asked how he felt about me doing something else. I agree with him that I do not always have an automatic response to be with him. When we are around the kids, I get a great deal of enjoyment from interacting with them. When I'm enjoying the day, I don't always realize that Erastis is feeling left out. He wants me to *want* to be integrated, not just do the individual actions because he asks.

Will my default behavior eventually change as we create romantic love? I believe that I can be happy with an integrated lifestyle, but there are times when I just don't notice that I'm not thinking of him first. It is especially frustrating when I have the impression that we are both having a great time. I have a reminder set on my phone to let him know each day whether or not I've had any contact with a man. Should I set a reminder to be close to him? It sounds facetious, but I'm serious. It is hurtful to get to the end of the day when I am looking forward to having time alone with Erastis, only to find that he feel neglected and is too hurt to spend time with me. Will I ever get to the point where I do these things automatically?

I don't see any "independent behavior" but I do see a lot of lovebusters that would naturally push you away from him. When my H "snaps" at me, I feel alienated from him for a day or two, so I can understand why you wouldn't feel "integrated."


Then he is not being very strategic if that is what he wants. If he wants to be integrated with you, he should step up his program and start ATTRACTING YOU. "Snapping" at you and being "upset" and accusing you of "independent behavior" for walking with your daughter on a family outing will cause you to be LESS integrated, not more.


And this is what happens when an unpleasant person demands and bullies his spouse to walk closer to him. You aren't doing it out of desire, but out of obligation.

This is not Independent Behavior on your part. Erastis was making a Disrespectful Judgment by expecting you to read his mind and know that he wants you to walk next to him, and he was also making a Demand that walking next to him is to be the default. When you didn't do it the way he wanted you to do it, he punished you.

HE is hurting your integration. If he wanted to walk next to you, he could have requested it. He could have also changed his pace to match yours. If he wants "walking next to each other" to be the default, he can take it upon himself to make sure he always walks next to you.

His demands and disrespect, followed by his punishment of you, is what ruined the evening.

If he had said "I really enjoy it when you walk beside me," that would have made his desire a request instead of a demand. Or, as you said, he could have taken the initiative to walk beside you -- that's what markos does when we go out as a family. He takes the initiative to walk by my side and hold my hand, and the kids just naturally surround us.

He is being demanding by expecting you to ask him before you can talk to one of your kids while out on family time. He does see this as family time and not UA time, right?

That is a massive DJ on his part.

And even if it were true .... SO???? That's how the program works.

That is because you have a high need for Family Commitment. Which is a valid emotional need. He needs to provide that for you, and not expect you to give your undivided attention to him when you are having family time. Undivided Attention should be scheduled a part from family time.

And he can stop his DJs right there.

Erastis: STOP IT.

It is not facetious -- such reminders to change your behavior to meet an emotional need for your spouse is a very good idea. I used to have a ton of them, until the behavior became second nature.


Azurite, there is no excuse for how he is treating you. He is punishing you. He's not spending time with you because he's just too neglected and hurt to do so -- he got his feelings hurt, and he's going to punish you in response.

Nothing will change for you until he stops that.

No, the default is to do nothing.

It sounds to me like he is going on at whatever pace he wants and demanding that everybody keep up. If my wife or I did that to each other, I'm certain the other would feel very cruelly mistreated.

Literally. He cannot demand that you DO something as the default.

Markos did that to me once, before Marriage Builders. I stopped taking walks with him.

The lovebusters didn't come until after he was upset about my behavior.




We have had numerous discussions about how it bothers him when I do not walk beside him. Whether it is an annoying habit or independent behavior, I try to remain aware of walking beside him when it is the two of us. On this occasion, I did not think about it. If I understand correctly, you are saying that it would not be IB to interact more with the kids during family time? We do occasionally try to get UA time in when out with the kids. For example, there are times we have gone on long walks with the kids and they run ahead and we are able to talk alone. He wants us together and the kids surrounding us like you said.




That is good to know.


I will do this.

Surely you know that that isn't UA time. You can't strip little bits of UA time out of activities that are definitely not UA time, such as when you are with your kids. That is family time, full stop.

You can't say that we were out with the kids for two hours, but for ten minutes when we were approaching the lake they ran ahead, and then there were another fifteen minutes when we walked down the hill, and there was the last five minutes when they raced to the gate...so that makes...oooh... a whole half-an-hour.

A date's a date (or recreation time is recreation time) - only if it's without the kids. Surely you know that.

The lovebusters on his part started on the walk.


It is fine for him to prefer that you walk beside him. I prefer that markos walk beside me, too, a lot of the time. BUT, he cannot demand it. And he cannot judge you or your motives for not doing it. And he cannot expect you to read his mind, know that he wants you beside him RIGHT NOW, and punish you when you don't comply.

He could have requested it.
He could have changed his behavior and slowed down to walk next to you.
But, instead, he reacted with demands and disrespect.

He cannot become demanding and disrespectful, even when his emotional needs are not being met.

This will not work. UA time should be done with no kids present. Family time is a vital emotional need for you, and should occur at a different time from UA time. Neither UA or Family time will be high quality if you try to blend the two.

That is nice, and it may make lovebank deposits. But it's not UA.

Remember: The default is to do nothing. The default is not "We walk together," it's "We don't walk at all." He can request that you walk together. He can take it upon himself to walk with you. He can ask what he can do to make you enthusiastic about walking together. But he cannot demand it. He cannot make it the default. He cannot become disrespectful of you when you fail to do it. He cannot punish you over failing to comply.

BTW, just because he was upset by your behavior doesn't mean that your behavior was wrong.

You did nothing wrong by walking more slowly and spending the time talking to your child.

He got upset because he wanted something from you that you were not giving (and didn't have to give). You may have been willing, if he had talked it over with you respectfully. But he didn't. He chose to resort to demands and disrespect and punishment.