I got it from: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8121_trust.html
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Keep talking. I may just need another wake up call. But I can see where these two citations don't necessarily conflict. To me, in your citation, he is saying not to use trust as protection for your marriage. I don't think he is saying that trust is an evil thing to have or to use for other purposes. Just don't use it as a replacement for EPs, POJA, PORA, POUA, meeting ENs, avoiding LBs, etc.


I can see we are on two different channels here but I don't understand what I am missing.

Today, I may be upset by my wife wanting to go to WalMart alone. Five years from now, I may not be bothered by that at all? What has changed? Is it OK for her to go to WalMart five years later, alone, when it doesn't bother me? Why? Why not? Is that a relaxation of EP or is it something else?

Yeah. I am obviously off base somewhere with EPs. There is something not right in my understanding. For most EPs, I don't have a problem seeing exactly what you mean. Let's take sharing your calendar and keeping each other notified immediately of changes. There is no reason for that to ever get relaxed even many years later. Trust will develop as a byproduct of the spouse doing EPs all those years, but trust doesn't change the need for the EP. In fact, after all of those years of performance, why in the world would you want to lower the EP? There is no reason because it's being done effortlessly and it still serves the purpose then that it did originally.

The type of EP I am struggling with seems more like a transitional EP? Again, the WalMart example. Let's say a spouse is seeking affirmation/attention from someone other than the spouse. And that is why the Walmart environment is a problem. But after many years of perfect affirmation/attention EP performance, why wouldn't the Walmart trip alone be dropped? The root EP is being met, and performance is well proven.

Ok, I see you are taking it out of context. As you can see in his writings, he does not recommend trust, but establishing appropriate boundaries.


But no one ever said it was evil thing. Dr Harley just said you shouldn't trust. Rather than trust, you should create a safe marriage.


What a very odd question. You imagine a complete hypothetical situation and want me to take my valuable free time to explain something to you that has not happened based on a feeling you do not have and don't know if you will EVER have. No thanks.

I don't mind helping people with the program but this is an exercise in mental masturbation as far as I am concerned.

My suggestion is take all this mental energy and focus it on the PRESENT by making your marriage great TODAY. Why worry about what has not happened?

I am focusing almost all of my attention on doing the fundamentals of MB. Primarily, meeting A's needs, not LBing her, and creating an integrated lifestyle that makes us both happy.

Although I have been known to enjoy a good philosophical discussion, this thread is about a significant, practical issue that has popped up a number of times. A and I both are very interested in a solution, clarity and help. We both agree that even though my example was partially hypothetical for the sake of simplification, it is very much real and is causing a problem.

Real example:

A year ago, I was not in agreement with A going anywhere alone. I would travel with her even to a Dr. visit. After months passed, based on actual, verified EP performance, I became comfortable with her going to the Dr. Office in town and out of town, store, library, and other locations. She had demonstrated that she was caring for me and considering me in specific areas of prior concern. New habits were formed. Now, I typically no longer travel with her to do these things.

We still always POJA her going anywhere. If she asked to go to Las Vegas alone, that would not be agreeable. The change in EP was not an obliteration of it. It was a relaxing of the EP based on my change in no longer feeling unhappy about SOME situations.

Questions:

My understanding from SA is that EPs are supposed to focus on specific things that make an affair possible. Otherwise, a behavior in question would be considered an annoying behavior and handled as such, correct?

A year ago, was my EP about her not going anywhere without me a legitimate MB EP?

Can and do EPs change under MB principles? Whenever things changed (I don't remember - recent months), when I changed my EP and she began traveling alone or with the kids, did my change follow MB principles? If not, can you point me to a reference where I can learn how to handle that?

A and I talked about trust in two contexts. She talked about resenting me for my lack of trust for her. I talked about whether relaxing EPs based on increased trust should be a goal.

I understand what you are saying about trust being irrelevant to EPs, and that EPs will always be needed so that answers my part of the question.

I am still not sure about the other context - type B resentment. It sounds like you are saying that *I* can't do anything about that (i.e. It is something A has to deal with).

Mainly, all I want to know is when type B resentment is evident to me, should that be triggering any kind of effort on my part to do anything about it. (I am talking now about type B whether it is because if lack of trust or for ANY other reason.). Should, for example, it be prompting me to go back and negotiate and brainstorm with A until her type B resentment is resolved by some POJA solution? Or is it a case where I absolutely can't do anything directly about type B resentment and I just have to believe that it will not keep her from falling in love, in spite of the fact that she says it withdraws love units.

The quote from Harley that I gave previously seemed to indicate that the solution to type B resentment (the kind where you don't get to do something you want to do) is solved by skillful negotiation.

Being together 24/7 is only an EP for couples recovering from serial cheating.

You negotiate an alternative that will be equally enjoyable for both of you.

You cannot negotiate EPs. They are what they are, and will be for the rest of your lives. If one spouse feels resentment over an EP, the only solution is to build a romantic marriage that far out weighs any resentment.

Do you want to control your wife or do you want to have her in love with you?

Just saying no, no, no to her is control. Of course it with draws love units and of course she's not going to fall in love with you while you are doing such.

Don't say no. Say "I'm not enthusiastic about that what can we do instead?" That shows care and a willingness to negotiate, not a desire to control her. If you make sure to find a win -win solution you will avoid the withdrawal AND make a deposit.

Don't be lazy about this. Of course it is your responsibility to do something when ever your wife is unhappy about a situation. Stop trying to figure out what you can "believe" so you can be off the hook. It's your job to have her in love with you. And that takes doing not believing.

And BTW, it's disrespectful to say even though she says it's withdrawing love units, that's not really the truth, she should still be in love with me.

Learning the difference between control and how to be protected in marriage is a very good point. Thank you for the reminder.

I greatly desire to love my wife, for her to be in love with me, and for each of us to care for and protect each other. I know what control produces and I do not wish to repeat that damage, to her or me.

My occasional temptation to capitulate is for the very reason that I want A to be happy, and it saddens me when she is unhappy. But rather than capitulation, I understand that I need to focus on things like those below.

For any benefit that it might give to anyone reading this thread in the future, here are a few of things that are helping me.

Start with caring words: In my negotiations, words mean nothing without corresponding actions. But that doesn't mean that my words mean nothing. When I have a thought of love or care, I need to say it. Not just think it. A told me that these words mean a great deal to her and she wants to hear them (i.e. "I would not be happy with ____, but I would like to find something agreeable that would make you happy". They may feel redundant to me, or that they should be implied, but I need to remember to say them and not skip doing so.

Negotiation box: When negotiating, there really shouldn't be a box. At all. Some people may be naturally better at thinking outside of a box, but I believe I can learn to do it well. When A asks for something I would not be happy with, I should not be limiting my creative thought on an alternative at all.

Example: She wants to go to a convention without me. The alternative that makes her happy may have NOTHING to do with a convention, or going anywhere without me, or whether the kids are present, or be related to the convention subject matter. There must be no box limiting creativity of alternatives.

Reading requests between lines: I must be vigilant in watching out for requests that A makes that may not be as plain as I would prefer. And I need to take every request seriously whether it is plain or not.

Example (if she were speaking): "How would you feel about solving X problem by me doing Y". This can mean that she is revealing a desire to do Y. Yes, she cares about our problem X and is helping to find a solution for X, but she also may be letting me know that she wants to do Y, whether it fixes X or not. It is important that I learn to recognize Y and do something about it.

The more I consider this EP/resentment topic, the more aware I am becoming of my lack of negotiation skills. I need to work on learning better negotation that will meet A's needs more effectively. Hopefully our coach can move us in that direction soon. In the meantime, any links to material would be appreciated.

Listen, Erastis, do you love your wife? Do you want her to love you? Do you want to spend the rest of your life with her? If the answers to any of those questions is "yes," then you sure are going about it the wrong way.

You are not doing things that she can admire or that will foster integration between the two of you. You are treating her in a very disgusting way.

And it needs to stop.

I can't understand why, if you want your wife to fall in love with you and want to be with you, you behave towards her with such unpleasantness as you showed after the walk. What was your behaviour - shunning her, rejecting her, and telling her she should have known what you wanted - designed to achieve?

You were unpleasant.

You were horrible.

Stop it.

Your behavior pretty much ensures she WON'T WANT to be with you. It is repellent.

Is anyone interested in "the rest of the story" or are you all so good at this now that you have no need for that? Or have I already been tried and hung? My goodness at the wild suppositions.

What wild suppositions have we made?

Do please tell your side of the story.

Not open to feedback about how your actions make your wife feel. Understood.

Mind answering my questions? They were not rhetorical.

Are you seriously calling your wife's side of the story "wild suppositions"?

I ask again: Do you love your wife? Do you want her to be in love with you? Do you want to spend the rest of your life with her?

No one has any need for your dramatics. You do have a need to read our advice, though.

I committed two love busters: reacting to being schooled by Azurite on how integration is irrelevant during family time, in response to my comment that things didn't go so well with us today (she and I).

The second love buster: I said, "it bothers me when you walk behind me", to which she schooled me on how impractical it is. I then responded (wrongly) what I was looking around observing - a half dozen other couples within sight who were walking together and managing it.

Neither of her educational comments justify a LB on my part. She should be able to spit in my face, to use Harley's example, and I should still not LB in response.

Why couldn't you walk with her? Why did she have to speed up rather than you slow down? You could have had exactly what you wanted but you wouldn't give it to yourself. You hurt youself in that walk.

What makes you think I didn't do that? SUPPOSITION.