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I agree it probably would have been best to just separate instead of letting her know that's my plan threatening her. Understatement of the year. If someone's being threatened, they naturally close themselves off to the threat in self defense instead of opening towards you to resolve the problem. You achieved the opposite of what you were hoping for. You became a threat instead of part of the solution. There is a lot of underlying wisdom in Dr. Harley's experiential advice. If you can act on it before you 'treat' yourself to the experience you'll save yourself a lot of grief. Dr. Harley says to never threaten separation prior to actually doing it. From receiving these threats from my xH, I can tell you that they were a large factor in destroying my love for him due to instinctive self preservation.
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SC I haven't written to Dr Harley but I intend to as soon as I have some spare time. I've slated some time tomorrow to do that. I think what you wrote in your first post is fine to use and will save you time: "I'm sorry to say that things have taken a bit of a turn for the worst in our home. Despite my wife's honest attempts to control her drinking, in the last couple of months, she has started to slide back into some her bad habits. Drinking more, drinking faster and more frequently. I told her I can't live like this anymore. That her drinking is ruining it for me, That I'm triggered every time I see her drink. I've informed her that I see the only solution to resolve this would be for her to commit to stop drinking entirely. Outside of me communicating that to her, getting myself to Al-Anon, is there anything else I could be doing? Is it recommended to get others involved or, at least, communicate to some of the important ones that her drinking has become a problem?"
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This post, from January 2016, is also useful, as it gives a bit of history: Hello MB friends, it has been a long time since I've posted. It's good to see familiar posters still here, Mel, Marko, Brain.
I must be a masochist as I continue to come back here with the same and/or similar story every time. I read my posts from several years ago and I sound like a broken record. Much of the same BS has been going on since my last posts here.
I'm no longer in love with my W, haven't been for a long time, but have simply been co-habitating. The MB counseling and our efforts were only a temporary thing. Something she put minimal effort into. I failed to push the issue.
Same thing that happened a few years ago the same neighbor came down without his wife and my wife (who has been getting zero attention/affection from me) spent the night flirting with him. Can't say I blame her desire to have some attention but just shows how idiotic I've been to think I could co-habitate with her.
Problem #1 is her drinking. I'm quite certain she's an alcoholic. Drinks nearly every day and does dumb stuff when she's intoxicated.
I am so uncertain what to do anymore. I had a long talk with her on New Years and told her things needed to change drastically or I was going to leave her. She apologized for her actions on that drunken night. Said it would never happen again. Sorry honey but I've heard that before.
I told her if she really was serious about saving this marriage there were definitive things that would have change.
No more drinking. She's squaking at that but she's stopped ... for now.
To help I've tried to throw myself back into the program and do all the work that Jennifer and my experience has taught me. This is really it, the last time you'll hear me say I'm trying one more time. I've spent the last 2 years being extremely withdrawn and unhappy. I have better things to do with my life then spend it miserable.
Trouble is my W doesn't throw all in with the MB program. I know the right thing to do is give her the mandate that we follow it to the letter or it won't work. I don't know, maybe I have my answer and shouldn't even bother giving it one more go.
Not sure I should even be pushing the MB program right now. She needs my support if we're to get through this but I think her abuse of alcohol has to be addressed before anything. It is difficult to be supportive when you're withdrawn. I'd forgotten that you coached with Jennifer Chalmers for a while. I think that gives an important context; it shows that you have been working hard on the marriage for years, but that your wife's alcoholism prevents her from using POJA, or anything else from MB. You need to let Dr Harley know that you have been trying to use MB in your marriage since you first posted here (when was that?), that you have coached with Jennifer, and that only in January this year did you tell the forum the full extent of your wife's drinking. Having taken our advice, you have tried to get her to stop. She would only agree to cutting down, but after nearly a year, it is clear that this has not worked. She is now offering to stop for two months, starting after Christmas. Should you take her up on that offer, and what else could you do? Is an intervention in order? Should you separate if she won't stop?
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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I believe that Dr Harley tends to offer different solutions to marital crises, depending on whether the husband is the victim, or the wife.
With wives, he tends to insist on a hard line, straight away. With an affair: Plan A for 3 weeks only, unless the husband is carrying on the affair in front of your face, in which case, kick him out today. With domestic violence: leave today, before he kills you. With OCD, the husband needs to not inflict his tendencies on his wife. She should not deal with them. He needs to use therapeutic methods, right now.
The Q&As about drinking are similar: the first one, with the alcoholic husband, stresses the need for separation, but the second one, with the alcoholic wife, suggests more patience, in the form of an intervention. It could be that with alcohol, as with other issues, Dr Harley recommends men to be more protective towards their wives, and not simply to abandon them until they come around. That is what he tends to tell women to do.
What I don't know, from those letters, is whether, and at what point, Dr H would tell a husband to separate from an alcoholic wife. I assume he would not want you to go on protecting her forever. That's why I think he needs to know about how long you have been trying to improve your marriage using MB, and for how long alcohol has been her first love (I presume for the same years that your marriage has been in crisis).
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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Thanks everyone. I did find some free time this afternoon (cancelled a meeting to make the time) and sent an email to Joyce and Dr Harley.
SC I did mention that we counseled with Jennifer but I didn't really cast blame on her alcohol being the reason we can't POJA or implement his program. We do agree on most everything and she did approach this drinking situation as a negotiation. That was a bad idea on my part and I knew it was at the time but thought I'd give it a shot anyway.
The MB program hasn't worked for us for several reasons. As you can tell I sometimes struggle doing the right thing in the moment. Even when I give my communications to her with some fore-thought I do things that Dr Harley and you fine folks say "Don't do". I accepted a half effort on her part to implement the program as progress thinking we'd get there eventually.
The other reason is she doesn't believe in all of the principles. She doesn't believe it's imperative to eliminate time away (she has horses 1.5 hours away) or schedule UA time (we don't get enough UA time in ... no where near enough). We don't have a lot in common and despite some effort still don't have a lot we like to do together. Go out to eat, movies, watch our kid's sporting events. Most things that don't qualify for UA time.
Mel once told me I should just take her shopping ... well I hate shopping. Shopping means spending money we don't have and bringing more junk into our home that I don't want lying around. Our office/den looks sort of like a hoarder's room. Crap lying around in our bedroom, an ugly plastic dresser thingy to house her out-of-season wear in because everything else is packed tight with stuff. I've asked nicely for years that this be addressed but it's still there.
Anyways, that's getting off topic.
I'm looking forward to what Dr Harley says.
Last edited by MrAlias; 12/06/16 03:22 PM.
Me: 57 Her: 54
M: 31 years
Kids(DS23, DD20, DS18)
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Let us know what Dr. Harley says.
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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Mel once told me I should just take her shopping ... well I hate shopping. Shopping means spending money we don't have and bringing more junk into our home that I don't want lying around. Our office/den looks sort of like a hoarder's room. Crap lying around in our bedroom, an ugly plastic dresser thingy to house her out-of-season wear in because everything else is packed tight with stuff. I've asked nicely for years that this be addressed but it's still there. Don't let this bit discourage you, though. This is more of a symptom than a problem. And it's the symptom of an empty Love Bank r/t a neglected marriage. You definitely have bigger hurdles to cross, but this little bit here is something that gets solved here all the time.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Thanks Hold.
Actually it is more a problem or it's indicative of the problem. I've always struggled to get my W on board with the MB concepts. Even after meeting with Dr Chalmers and reading all of the materials in HNHN, LBs and FILSIL she still maintains a wish to pick the parts she thinks are needed and dismisses the ones she disagrees with. For instance she doesn't believe in the UA requirement despite it being obvious to me that that's the piece that's missing from our R. We need more RC and UA time. There are things she likes I don't and vice versa. So we spend a lot of time just doing our own things ... not bonding, building our love for each other.
I always feel stuck between a rock and a hard place. I believe in Dr Harley's principles. 100%. She doesn't. I say I believe in them 100% but I, myself, have been less than effective in my part (for whatever reason) in implementing them and sticking to them.
I haven't given up though. I remind her consistently (not incessantly) that I have a desire for us to do more fun things together, to find more alone time. She doesn't resist, we banter ideas around all the time, never really coming up with much of anything.
Me: 57 Her: 54
M: 31 years
Kids(DS23, DD20, DS18)
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I was sure to connect with my W yesterday. That, although I threw something out there that was threatening, I am still very much in love with her and want to make our M work. Instead of being silent I was sure to reach out to her to talk about every day things. When we were together (which was briefly) I asked for a hug and looked in her the eyes with a soft heart. Told her I loved her last night, this morning before I left like I always do.
I want her to know I'm on her side, on the side of our M and that she has something great here that's worth fighting for.
Me: 57 Her: 54
M: 31 years
Kids(DS23, DD20, DS18)
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BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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I've always struggled to get my W on board with the MB concepts. Even after meeting with Dr Chalmers and reading all of the materials in HNHN, LBs and FILSIL she still maintains a wish to pick the parts she thinks are needed and dismisses the ones she disagrees with. For instance she doesn't believe in the UA requirement despite it being obvious to me that that's the piece that's missing from our R. We need more RC and UA time. There are things she likes I don't and vice versa. So we spend a lot of time just doing our own things ... not bonding, building our love for each other. This can be solved once she gives up alcohol.
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She reciprocated. Hugged me back, said she loved me too. Again we're very civil to each other. No hostility. Definitely some tension. I think I can sense that she loves me. We talk a lot as if there aren't these conflicts and tensions.
Me: 57 Her: 54
M: 31 years
Kids(DS23, DD20, DS18)
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I've always struggled to get my W on board with the MB concepts. Even after meeting with Dr Chalmers and reading all of the materials in HNHN, LBs and FILSIL she still maintains a wish to pick the parts she thinks are needed and dismisses the ones she disagrees with. For instance she doesn't believe in the UA requirement despite it being obvious to me that that's the piece that's missing from our R. We need more RC and UA time. There are things she likes I don't and vice versa. So we spend a lot of time just doing our own things ... not bonding, building our love for each other. This can be solved once she gives up alcohol. I agree. First things first. The drinking causes me to lose my love for her. Big time. Until that is resolved it will be very difficult for me to focus on trying to fix other areas of our M. We do still POJA most other matters. We still continue to discuss things we can do to have more time and fun together. We just don't agree on the drinking.
Me: 57 Her: 54
M: 31 years
Kids(DS23, DD20, DS18)
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Update:
I just heard from Dr Harley.
To summarize his advice:
The solution is to quit drinking entirely. Controlled drinking doesn't work. (I agree).
Find a good treatment program that won't ruin our marriage. (Good to know)
Some reading for me on Codependency. (I believe I've read it before. I will read it again).
Does not recommend separating but I may want to consider an intervention that involve my kids. (Definitely a possibility).
I will reach back out to him but I'll ask here too.
Would the first step be to have the intervention? If so what does that look like? Do the kids and I just do that or do we hire someone who can facilitate the process?
An intervention frightens me. I know her. I know she will be very angry. May never forgive me.
With that said would it be more logical to first suggest she seek professional help? I will be sure to help facilitate that should she agree.
Me: 57 Her: 54
M: 31 years
Kids(DS23, DD20, DS18)
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An intervention frightens me. I know her. I know she will be very angry. May never forgive me. I would complete your POJA about stopping drinking now before considering this. If she agrees to stop, no need for an intervention UNTIL she quits stopping. If she won't agree to stop, then it would also be time to consider it.
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In your final POJA approach, I'd be very careful to be humble, affirming of your love for her both in words and affection - to sell her on your care and desire for her.
Think ahead of any SDs that might pop out of your mouth ahead of time and purposefully plan to not engage them.
Since you've indicated you're a Christian, another thing you might want to consider is to pray beforehand for wisdom in your words (James 1:5). And also to keep yourself from pride.
However, you do need to stop avoiding this conversation with her. You are spending a lot of energy thinking about and being affected by her lovebuster instead of handling it. This is only depleting your account and is not helping your marriage.
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Update:
I just heard from Dr Harley.
To summarize his advice:
The solution is to quit drinking entirely. Controlled drinking doesn't work. (I agree).
Find a good treatment program that won't ruin our marriage. (Good to know)
Some reading for me on Codependency. (I believe I've read it before. I will read it again).
Does not recommend separating but I may want to consider an intervention that involve my kids. (Definitely a possibility).
I will reach back out to him but I'll ask here too.
Would the first step be to have the intervention? If so what does that look like? Do the kids and I just do that or do we hire someone who can facilitate the process?
An intervention frightens me. I know her. I know she will be very angry. May never forgive me.
With that said would it be more logical to first suggest she seek professional help? I will be sure to help facilitate that should she agree. You only gave us notes from what Dr Harley said, and you did not tell us what you asked. It's much better for us to see the full question and answer. However, based on the notes you provided, this is the order of battle: 1. See what single-sex treatment programmes are available in your area. Is there a single-sex AA centre nearby? Talk to them about what help they can offer your wife. 2. Armed with that knowledge, ask your wife to stop drinking altogether; not just for two months, and starting right now, not after the holidays. Tell her about the support she will receive from the local AA. 3. If she refuses, or tries to negotiate starting after the holidays, or giving up for only two months, get your kids involved in the intervention. In fact, you could tell your kids right now that their mother is an alcoholic and you intend asking her to stop drinking altogether, and you might need their help with this later. 4. If she refuses, and the intervention does not help, write to Dr Harley again.
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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MRAlias, I just want to ask you to take a more proactive approach towards the problem. I notice Dr Harley gave you is the same advice I gave you about her drinking a long time ago. I told you that controlled drinking does not work yet it was suggested AGAIN yesterday on this thread. It is only an exercise in kicking the can down the road. And here we are.....down the road.
I am not trying to beat you up, only to point out that kicking the can down the road always results in YEARS of dealing with the same problem. I hope you follow his advice to the letter.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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In fact, you could tell your kids right now that their mother is an alcoholic and you intend asking her to stop drinking altogether, and you might need their help with this later. Sugar Cane is really awesome, but I would disagree with telling the children this until after she has refused to quite or until after she has stopped quitting. This could be an enormous lovebuster which could cloud her desire to work with him on his objective. I also don't think it is a just action to take prior to concluding his own conversations with her. The reason he has not concluded his conversations is because he is avoiding conflict. Involving the kids in the mess of his own creating before he cleans it up doesn't seem fair to her at all. My exH tried an "intervention" on me for unjust reasons and I literally hated him for it every time I remembered it. Scalding, burning hatred.
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I would complete your POJA about stopping drinking now before considering this. If she agrees to stop, no need for an intervention UNTIL she quits stopping.
If she won't agree to stop, then it would also be time to consider it. You realise that we shouldn't POJA health and safety issues, don't you?
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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