New here. We are both 45, married "older" at 35. Together for 2 years prior to marriage. First marriage for both but we had both had previous LTRS. We have one 4 year old son with serious disabilities. His birth is when the problems started.

I just finished reading HNHN so I'm going to use it as a starting point.
My top 5 needs are probably more masculine than most but I've always been a tomboy so I guess it's not that surprising. In order for me: recreational companionship, family commitment, honesty and openness, sexual fulfillment, and physical attractiveness. I would say financial support would be a close 6th but it didn't used to be for reasons I will explain. Bottom of my list is admiration and intimate conversation (I get plenty of that from my sister and female friends).

My husband refuses to read the book so I'm just guessing his based on what I know of him: sexual fulfillment, admiration, domestic support, financial support although once again this is in an unusual way, and recreational companionship.

So it sounds like we ought to be mostly OK since we have a couple that overlap, right? Unfortunately, having read the book, I think that at least part of our problem is that neither one of us has a need for non sexual affection or intimate conversation. And I think both are important enough that we probably need them even if we don't think we do.

Ok, the issues -
1. recreational companionship #1 for me #5 for him. But I want to be out DOING things - hiking, skiing, traveling, adventuring. He used to like those things, but these days he is significantly overweight (will address later) and his idea of recreation is watching a baseball game or playing a video game together. Neither of which I want to do at all. I want to be outdoors!

2. Sexual fulfillment #4 me #1 him. Neither one of us cares much about emotional connection in sex. We both like our sex results driven. Unfortunately for me once he has achieved climax he could care less if I do or not. He very often finishes quickly and leaves me to finish alone or not at all. He's also a very rough lover and has hurt me more than once. There is NO love making to our sex. Which makes me not want to have sex much even though I have a strong need for it. He's also around 330 pounds these days which has mostly killed my physical attraction to him. And he doesn't care about his weight.

3. Family commitment: #2 for me, not even on his radar. He spends almost zero time with our son. Never bonded with him. Sometimes I truly believe he wishes he had never been born. We literally never go anywhere as a family except to visit family and even that is rare as I can't stand his parents and he can't stand mine. He can't be bothered learning how to relate to our son despite his disabilities. Has gone so far as to suggest that we have him institutionalized. Which I will NEVER agree to. If it comes to choosing between my husband and my son, my son will win.

4. Honesty and openness: #3 for me, once again, it's not even on his radar. In fact I sometimes think he is a pathological liar. He doesn't just lie to get out of trouble or to avoid unwanted consequences, he lies about things that are not even important. He also refuses to be open with me about how he spends his time when he is not at home. I can't begin to count the number of nights dinner has gone to waste because he's late coming home from work and doesn't bother to call and tell me, just gets fast food and eats it in his car.

5. Physical attractiveness: #5 for me at this time. I don't think it matters much to him. It wasn't a big deal for me either until he hit about 280 and just kept gaining. He's well over 300 pounds and it's neither attractive or healthy. It sounds horrible but it's disgusting. The thought of sex with him these days makes me ill. When we do have sex now we usually do it with him behind me.

6. Financial support: This didn't used to be a big deal for me because I had a good job. But our son needs full time care and although we have a home health aid who comes in a few times a week I still don't feel right working outside the home. I also don't drive anymore which is also an impediment to working outside the home. I do have a small home based business doing social media "ghosting" and web development. So financial support is very important to me now. But it's not an issue because he has a really good job. Which he loves BTW. For him, though, there is a problem with me not working. Even though we can afford it, he feels like I am lazy and taking advantage of him. Which leads into

7. Domestic support. Which is a big deal to him because his mother was June Cleaver. Little miss perfect homemaker. H and FIL and BIL never did ANYTHING around the house. If MIL got sick she still soldiered on. And if she was in the hospital, BIL's wife and I were expected to come over and take care of the house for FIL. My H expects me to be the same way. He does NOTHING to help out at home - not even the typical guy things like mowing the lawn shoveling the driveway or washing the car or taking the car for repairs when necessary. He says if I can't do it then hire someone. Which to me is hard because I grew up poor and spending money on mowing or plowing or whatever seems horribly wasteful. I am a good housekeeper, but there are days when I can't keep up with my son's needs AND keep the house to his standards AND put a meal worthy of his mother on the table. So he just eats out while I'm stuck at home eating alone while his dinner gets cold.

8. Admiration - this is a big deal to him that I'll admit means nothing to me. I am trying to work on it but lately I don't find much in him to admire other than he is a good provider. Which is sadly offset by the fact that he is grossly obese and a lousy father.

9. Non sexual affection - he likes back rubs once in a while. I like foot rubs once in a while. I wouldn't mind if he was a little more snugly sometimes especially when I am down (I suffer from anxiety on a regular basis. He doesn't believe anxiety is a real psychological and medical condition. Which pisses me off.) We very rarely touch each other outside the bedroom. We never have. I don't miss it and if he does he's never said so.

10. Intimate conversation - we are both quiet, introverted people. Yes, we used to talk more, about things like books and music and other topics of interest. We know each others' pasts pretty well. I know his first fianc� broke his heart by sleeping with his best friend. He knows I was date raped in college. Nowadays conversation consists of arguing about where to go for dinner (he prefers going out to eating at home) or how the Yankees and Bills are doing this season (lousy). The kind of things I talk about with my female friends (politics, celebrity gossip, the latest episode of GoT) he rolls his eyes and zones out. All he ever talks about is Call of Duty and World of Warcraft and Skyrim but at least I listen.

A couple of other things that don't fit above but do fit into the whole Joint Agreement thing I suppose:

Church is important to me. I'm very religious and it's also my only social outlet. All my family and friends are there. Not only does he not want to go with me, he wants me to stop going. And to not openly practice my Christian beliefs around him. This partly goes back to his lying. He actively pretended to be a Christian while we were dating to win me. He dumped it practically as soon as the ink was dry on the marriage license. He's actually an atheist with little use for organized religion.

The less important thing is music. I like Celtic and contemporary Christian. He likes metal and heavier alternative. There's not much common ground between Mercy Me and AC/DC. But he insists on listening to his music in our house when I'm there but won't let me listen to mine when he is at home.

I guess it comes down to I feel like I am the one making all the compromises to make it work and he's not willing to compromise at all. I desperately want to change this dynamic, for our child's sake as well as my own. Having read the book, I see some changes I can make and I'm willing to try. But shouldn't he meet me halfway?

Sorry so long....

Welcome to MB.

Dr Harley's MB programme does not recommend compromising, if by that you mean doing some of the things that you like and he hates, and vice versa, or putting up with some behaviours that you hate that he wants to do, and vice versa. If you do that, it means that half the time you are unhappy, and the other half, he is.

Instead, Dr Harley recommends the Policy of Joint Agreement, where you do things together that you are both enthusiastic about, and leave aside the things that one of you dislikes. If you cannot find things to do that you are both enthusiastic about, you do nothing, while brainstorming until you find things that you both have enthusiasm for.

The "Love Busters" part of the programme means that you stop doing things that withdraw love units. If he does not like hearing your music, for example, then don't play it when he is around - and the same would go for him.

The problem, though, is that he seems unwilling to try to meet your emotional needs, or to avoid love busters, or to use POJA in decision making. He seems unwilling to change his behaviour at all; you can like him or leave him. Would you agree with that assessment?

I agree with your assessment that right at the moment he is unwilling. I am hoping that if I do better at meeting his needs and lowering my LB behavior, he might get on board the program with me. It's that whole POJA that is a problem for me. If one of the things he is not enthusiastic about is spending time with his own child, and one of the things neither one of us is enthusiastic about is spending time with the other's family - how do I accept that? I love my husband. But I also love my son. And my family. And he loves his family. I really feel sometimes like I am being asked to choose between them because my husband only wants to be with me alone and that's when he's home at all which is less and less as time goes on. On top of that our son has a limited life span - I can't bear the idea of sending him away when we only have maybe a decade more with him, as long as we can afford to get the care he needs at home. Surely your children fall outside the realm of the POJA?

What do you mean by his spending less and less time at home as time goes on? Where does he spend his time? Doesn't he come straight home after work?

Are you saying that he does not want to be around his son because of his disabilities? Does he want him to be put into care?

BMH, are you unwilling to follow the POJA? It sounds like you are also unwilling and believe certain things should not apply to the POJA. There are situations where the POJA would not apply and that is typically in marriages where there is abuse or adultery.

Dr Harley says that if a couple won't follow the policy of joint agreement the marriage is not likely to last because they will grow incompatible, which leads to a loss of love.


You negotiate solutions that suit you both. For example, my H and I don't spend much time with each others families because our marriage comes first. I don't much like some of his family and he doesn't like some of mine. SO, we only spend time with the family members we both like for the amount of time that suits us BOTH. Our marriage is strong and happy because we make decisions together.

i will tell you that I used to force reluctant agreements out of him and that always backfired, making us BOTH unhappy. I quickly learned that is a stupid strategy because sacrifice leads to resentment and eventually an unhappy marriage. That is how incompatibility is created.


Where does he go? Why is he home less and less?

He works Monday through Saturday, 12 hours a day M-F and about 4 hours a day on Saturday. Sundays he usually spends at his parents house or with his brother. His commute is 2 hours per day and he travels overnight a few times a month sometimes for up to a week at a time.

And yes, he wants to have our son institutionalized. It was his mother's idea initially but he is totally on board with it. He is very uncomfortable around our son and can't seem to learn to interact with him. We have a state provided home health aide 20 hours per week but she is rarely there when he is and he blames our son for taking all my time. I'm his mother and the doctors have told me that I will probably lose him before he is 18 so it's really hard for me to be away from him. Especially since he has bad spells that could theoretically be fatal at any time so I have real anxiety about being away from him. Especially since all my husband ever wants to do is go to the bar or the ballpark or the arcade or the casino none of which I consider worth leaving our son for. I would much prefer it if we could go to family friendly places with good handicapped accessibility and take our son with us but H doesn't like taking him anywhere with us. I don't honestly know if he thinks it's too much hassle or if he is actually ashamed of him. When I actually try to give him the benefit of the doubt I wonder if he's afraid something will happen to son while he is with him and he won't know how to deal with it, so he avoids it out of fear. If he refuses to bond with him because he knows we are going to lose him. But he won't talk to me about it so I just don't know.

So I should just give up my #2 emotional need - for family connectedness - because he's not enthusiastic about spending time with our son? I've already compromised on my #5 so that he continues getting his #1.

I am very curious - how many people here would actually institutionalize a terminally ill child to save their marriage? How do you choose between the needs of the child and the needs of the parent? And would it save my marriage anyway, when I would spend the rest of my life resenting him for it?

I don't want to leave my husband. And I don't think he would ever force this issue. But I need to find a way to get us back on track from all the barriers our son's very existence seem to have built between us. It's very lonely, and it's breaking my heart.

Good grief - that's over 60 hours per week. That is not normal. Why does he have to work such hours? Is he doing overtime?

There cannot be a marriage in between all the hours spent like that. If your marriage is to improve and thrive, this all needs to end; the long hours, and the overnight travel. All of it.

One of the most important things that Dr Harley encourages us to do is to understand the issue from our spouse's perspective. Are you trying to do with this with your H, about your son?

Perhaps he is just embarrassed, and has failed to bond with your son, as you say. However, perhaps he considers that a great strain has been placed on your marriage, and perhaps he sees a caring institution as potentially good for all of you.

If you wish to rule out a care institution (and nobody would blame you for that), you still need to try and understand the problem that your husband is seeing. I suspect that he feels that there is no room left for the marriage because your son's needs dominate. What can you do to somewhat alleviate that situation? How can you have a marriage - which means romantic time alone together, preferably out of the house - and still know that your son is being well cared for, without feeling that you are neglecting him?

When does he get to go out on dates with you? It doesn't sound like you have time or space for your marriage and he has checked out. Most people don't want to go out with kids all the time. Marriage Builders recommends 4 4 hour dates per week, AWAY FROM CHILDREN, friends, etc. This program doesn't work without that step.

Harley recommends spending 15 hours per week with family and 15+ hours per week for your marriage, out on dates meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs of conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. Are you even willing to do that?

Have you read this?
The Critical Importance of Undivided Attention

What a minute: when did anybody say any of this?

You posted this in reply to my asking whether your husband wants to put your son in care. That's all I asked.

How did you go from that to "So I should just give up my #2 emotional need - for family connectedness - because he's not enthusiastic about spending time with our son?"

Marriage Builders does not recommend that you give up your most important emotional needs. If you do that, the outcome will be that you fall out of love with your husband. The point about emotional needs is that, when they are met by your spouse, they build love units and help you fall in love with him. Therefore, for you to give up trying to get an important emotional need met would be counterproductive. The goal is to create love in your marriage. The solution is to negotiate and brainstorm with your husband about how you can get your FC need met by him in a way that he can be enthusiastic about meeting it.

"How do you choose between the needs of the child and the needs of the parent? And would it save my marriage anyway, when I would spend the rest of my life resenting him for it?"

Nobody would tell you to institutionalise a terminally ill child to save your marriage, if you are against this. And of course, the degree of resentment that the act would create would harm the marriage anyway. again, that would be counterproductive, so there is no point in doing it.

I think the problem is that you are looking at this from the outset in very either/or terms. You seem to see your marriage and your son as part of a zero sum game; if one benefits, the other loses.

I encourage you to try and understand your marital problems, and in particular, the issue of your son, from your husband's perspective, and encourage him to see them from yours. The aim is to find a way to care for your son at home, and to meet each other's needs in ways that you can be enthusiastic about.

I do think that, since this is a very unusual situation for this forum (many posters here have kids with special needs, but I have't come across any where it is known from the outset that the child's lifespan will be limited) you would benefit from writing directly to Dr Harley. he will give you advice for free, and follow up with you for as long as you need.

We on the forum would be very interested to know how he advises you, so that we can help other posters in the future.

He doesn't want to go on "dates" with me. He wants to go to the arcade and play video games for hours like a 16 year old. He wants to go to the casino and waste money on a pass time I consider a sin. I'm not 100% sure he's not using prostitutes at the casino since he's admitted to doing so in the years between his last LTR and our relationship. The only thing he really seems to want from me is a 5 minute long sexual encounter a few times a week that consistently leaves me either frustrated, sore, or both.

And as far as the job - he works closer to 80 hours a week when all is said and done, and has since before I met him. He's had this job for almost 20 years now and I'm fairly sure the job means more to him than ANY person ever has. He's on call 24/7/365 and ALWAYS volunteers to work holidays - get this - so that people WITH FAMILIES won't have to. He's never once taken a vacation since I've known him. He just cashes out his vacation pay at the end of every year. He didn't leave work for our son's birth and he hasn't been to one of his MANY drs appts since he was an infant. If he's checked out, I'm sorry to say it happened right about the moment we got the diagnosis which by the way is Krabbes which is what Jim Kelly's son had.

Oh and his hours and travel are because he's a district manager for one of the big box retail chains. And his local corporate headquarters which he has to check in with every morning is an hour away from where we live. His choice not to move closer, not mine.

I suspect that he checked out as the extent of your son's needs became apparent, and as they grew. I think it was possibly made worse by the way that you seem to want to put the boy first at all times; taking him out with you always, and not letting anybody else care for him, while he himself needs round the clock care. While it's admirable to do that for your son, there was no pace for you two as a couple in this scenario.

You seem to have been prepared to let the romantic side of your marriage go completely, in favour of total family commitment. Your husband hasn't been happy with this, but you prioritise your child's needs over his. That happens in most marriages while the kids are little, and that's why those years are so precarious. For you, though, the years of prioritising your child have gone on and on. Does he even go to a day school?

If you organise your life around the threat that your son could die at any time, and will certainly die young, then that will dominate your whole marriage. There will be no time for affection, or dates, and no scope for interesting (never mind intimate) conversation, because your entire head space is taken up with the needs of your son. And from what I can see, you are painting your husband as a bad person for not wanting that domination to continue.

The problem is that, if you go on neglecting the romantic side of the marriage, one day there will not be any marriage left. With your husband already working very long hours, and spending the rest of his free time with his family, I'd say that day is not far away. Would yo agree?

What are you prepared to do about that? Do you think it should be all up to your husband to put his need for a marriage on the back burner until your son is no longer with you?

What kinds of things did you when you were dating? You probably also want him to do things he doesn't want to do - such as take your son out - so the solution is to brainstorm and find things you will BOTH love.


Regardless of when he checked out, he can check back in if he chooses to do so. It sounds like he checked out when your son was born. The key will be motivating him to check back in by including him in your marriage.

This is really terrible, and nobody here would EVER say that you should live like this.

I suspect that he is having an affair or using prostitutes. The nights away give him the perfect opportunity to do this. So, as well as all the other things we have written to you about, you need to get spying to find out what he does when he is away overnight, or at the casino. If he is engaging with other women, then nothing you do will ever meet his emotional needs, because he is getting them met elsewhere; principally, the one for sex.

Please write to Dr Harley. I think you need his specialist advice. He will have seen this problem, including having a child with special needs, many times before.

No, the POJA protects your son, because it says you do nothing unless you are both enthusiastic. You aren't enthusiastic about institutionalizing your son, so your husband will have to come up with another option.

I think you need to snoop like a bloodhound and prove whether or not your husband is having an affair, for what it's worth.

Are emailed questions only answered via radio? I don't have high speed internet, only cellular service with a limited data plan, so I can't do streaming media or use apps that require full time internet access. Even our cellular service is still only 3G where we live, which is a real dead zone for internet still. That's part of the reason I don't want to put my son in full time care - there is no place we can put him near where we live, and since I don't drive, I wouldn't be able to visit him unless I had others who could take me. Which I don't.

Also, I don't think my husband would agree to airing our story that way, even anonymously. He is a very private person and would probably be very upset if he found out even that I am posting here. But since he won't let me talk to a counselor or my pastor, I don't know what else to do anymore.