I'm sad to say I'm not new to MB and I'm back here as I hit a new low today moving out of the house for the second time at the request of my W. She introduced me to MB in 2013 and we did MB phone counseling but unfortunately we separated for 4 months due to my inability to control my AOs and DJs, among other love busters.

It's continued to be a roller coaster since she let me back in the house after the first separation. She let me back primarily because we have kids and it was hard on her for me to not be there. I also took the family on a vacation to show her how much I loved her and wanted to move back home. In hindsight, rather than doing the real work to get back in good graces and learn to be a good MB husband, I bribed my way back in the house and it was a mistake. I also agreed to do the online MB counseling and somehow I was able to stay married even though I continued to love bust and didn't put much effort into the program.

The truth is that I have never eliminated love busters because I've continued to point fingers at my wife, even after a lot of individual counseling and knowing about the MB program. I have failed to clean up my side of the street and over the past 6-12 months, DW has suffered from insomnia, depression and anxiety. It has taken a big mental/emotional and physical toll on her and I know I'm responsibility for it. W told me that she needs a separation because it has gotten so bad for her that it feels like life or death.

I decided to post on this forum this morning as I sat in my car crying about all the chances I've squandered and the pain I've caused. It was a low point and I was acting like a pathetic victim so I'm not here to complain or feel sorry for myself any longer. I know it's a huge uphill battle and I'm grasping at any small chance I have to turn things around and do the work to change. It may be hard to believe, but I love my W and kids dearly, but I see how I have not shown it. I know the chances of re-uniting after a second separation are slim to none, but I want to work on bettering myself for the sake of all people around me, especially my kids and DW. I can't live with myself staying the same and continuing to hurt others so I'm hoping to get some advice from you all about what to do while separated this time.

I screwed up my first separation by finding ways to escape my problems rather than facing them head on and learning a new way. I "conned" my way back in rather than digging deep to improve myself and learn to be a MB husband. I will not do that again, but the question is what do I do now?

Is there a MB plan for a guy who is on the wrong side of Plan B again?

Hi Digdeeper, welcome back. What was your old screen name? It would help if we could read your old thread so we can understand your history.

Yes, Dig, it's the same plan as always:
* Become skilled at making massive love bank deposits
* Completely eliminate love bank withdrawals
* Be completely transparent and don't have a secret second life
* Verify that your wife doesn't have a secret second life with another man in it

MelodyLane, I did not post to this forum. We did phone counseling and the online counseling program.

Markos, thanks for your response. What would you recommend in terms of contact? I don't want to be overbearing trying to meet her needs but one of her complaints from last time was that I disconnected and i didn't step up. I allowed her do it all with the kids and family, and her expectation was that a man who is separated should "move heaven and earth" to win their wife back.

I realize I need to make love bank deposits as much as possible so today i did things like take the kids to school, take our son to basketball and daughter to dance. I don't want to make the same mistake as last time but my concern is that this activity makes no deposit at all. :-/. Family commitment is important to her but do you have thoughts on other things I could do? She is open to texting but discussing my love busters and our relationship over text today was doing the opposite for her (love busting rather than making deposits). I get why since it's a obvious sore spot and she has a complete lack of trust in me but can you offer any guidance on what I could do to make deposits, even small ones? What can I say to her that may make a difference? Should I see if we can go somewhere fun on a date? I did offer to take the kids over night this week too but she doesn't want me taking them to a hotel and she refused to go to a hotel so I can be home with them. I feel like she needs a break but unfortunately I don't have a place for them to stay. I think I will plan to pick them up from school one day and take them out to dinner and fun. They probably need it and it will be a short break for W.

I don't want to disrespect her space so I feel like I need to tread lightly with trying to meet needs. Is that the wrong way to think?

One other note is that she brings up my love busters and why we are separated on text, not me. However she wants to engage but my responses suck to her. I try not to but I think my responses are coming across as angry and defensive. how can I respond in a constructive way if she brings it the reasons we are separated? I also learned not to text about how I'm feeling stressed today. She doesn't want to hear about my problems.

What are the love busters that you were committing? What are her biggest complaints to you?

What are her top ENs?

Here are three magic words that can probably help.

"You are right."

Then, tell her why she is right.

Do you agree you have been neglectful and abusive?

Can you control your angry outbursts now?

Have the police ever been involved?

Has either of you been unfaithful at any time?

Have you engaged in any drug or alcohol use?

You need to deal with the abuse (your Love Busters) first, before dealing with neglect (failure to meet her emotional needs). Regarding emotional needs I can only say that I think it's obvious that you haven't done a lot of learning about how Dr. Harley says to meet emotional needs. When you are really committed I assume you will probably embark on a program of education for yourself that will probably involve Dr. Harley's daily radio show, books, and the Q&A columns on this website about how to meet emotional needs.

But that is down the road. It sounds like your wife is extremely depressed because you have been abusive, so let's face that problem assertively and decisively. It's not safe for your wife to let you meet her emotional needs until you can protect her from love busters.

I have the impression you don't want to give us a lot of details about your love busters, so I think it is VITAL that you start giving us details.

I think you were on the right track. I suspect you were on your best behavior: no love busters, no angry outbursts, and trying to meet one of her most important emotional needs. The main problem is probably that you stopped!

You have to be on your best behavior all the time if you want to have a happy marriage.


I suspect you don't really know that much about the program based on a couple things you've said on this thread. Just a guess: do you know how to eliminate angry outbursts?

Love busters are angry outbursts and disrespectful judgments. for example, when she says something like the other night "I feel depressed when you're around", I respond with "Would it be better for you if I wasn't around so much and I go to an office all day?" in a rather snippy tone. (I work from home so I was around the house day and night). It's probably the tone and lack of concern for her feelings that's the biggest issue.

Here top ENs are:
Conversation
Affection (verbal)
Family Commitment

Yes I have not met her needs so I have been neglectful and abusive (verbally).

No, I still have angry outbursts, even though they are toned down from the past.

Police have never been involved.

She had an EA in 2014 but has had no contact with him since then.

No drug use, but yes occasional alcohol use.

Markos, I know controlling angry outbursts requires me to stop and calm down. I have read all Dr H's materials on angry outbursts and I did a course on anger management. I bought also the meter Dr H recommends and practiced with it. Maybe it's time to get it out again since it's been doing shelf time for over a year.

Here's my problem: while I know it's not ok to ever have an AO and it's my choice to react that way, I constantly feel under attack by my W. I know even if she is being completely disrespecful and angry that I need to choose to calm down - deep breathing, relaxation, or even take a walk if it's really bad. The problem is that the attacks always resume or just keep coming if I don't walk away from the conversation (which makes it even worse!). If I am calm for 10 minutes of her disrespect and I ask her to stop, she will just continue for 10, 20, 30 more minutes and finally I break with a mean, insulting response. And then it often escalates to us raising our voices and making threats like throwing in the towel.

She wasn't always like this and I didn't respond the right way early in our relationship when she was kind and sweet with her responses. This is 100% an issue I've created and I'm completely responsible for the anger - I should have never chosen to respond with anger and we probably wouldn't be in a place where it feels like she is constantly upset about the past.

Have you confirmed she's had no contact? Have you confirmed she isn't having a new affair?

So you have heard Dr. Harley's Anger management 101 radio clips?

Do all of your conversations begin with her love busters? I get the impression that this is not the case - that at least some conversations begin without this.

Assuming that is the case, you need to learn to detect the moment she is heading in that direction. This is similar to how you monitor your own self when learning to stop AO before they begin.


How you walk away matters. LB often start small and escalate. Once you identify the first moment that your wife has LB you, respectfully, and caringly take action. The action could be to gently redirect the conversation to a pleasant topic. (Be READY with one already in mind, ahead of time.) Or, it could mean simply saying, "Honey, I want our conversations to be caring and productive. I want to hear what you have to say, but I need to take a break so I can stay safe and pleasant in our talking."

Once you have established this, when you find yourself where the exit strategy is the only one coming to mind, shorten it to "I want to come back to this, but I need to take a break."

Be sure you do not use this exit strategy to avoid conflict. Her LB is probably directly related to a complaint. Long-term you need to come back to her when things are calm and offer to discuss the complaint.

You can be disrespectful in your tone and body language. Not just what you say. Be aware of what you look and sound like. Make sure you are "walking away" in a respectful and caring way. We have more control over our disrespectful tone and body language more than some of us would like to believe. It just takes a lot of practice to develop new habits.

While you are capable of withstanding much more than 10 minutes of LB without committing a LB yourself, you need to change course within the first minute. Not the 10th.

The following is something you might find encouraging.

As Azurite began feeling safe (from my discontinuance of DJs, SDs and AOs, I found that she expressed herself much more than she ever had. She opened up more and more. Along with the openness and honesty came some unpleasant LBs. She just hadn't yet learned new habits.

The woman I thought I knew all those years, I knew not. Because I had been unsafe. I am very grateful for how she has shared herself with me after I became safe. That is not possible in an unsafe situation. She quickly took care of her own LBs by developing new habits, so now we have the openness within the realm of care.

Your wife being separated from you makes her feel much safer. I encourage you to consider that a lot of what she is saying, she was thinking when you were together. The LBs are just part of working through the MB plan. If you follow the MB plan for dealing with them, you will get through it.

I am not saying to just endure the LBs. I am saying to recognize the phase for what it is and be grateful that she is complaining (even if incorrectly). Because withdrawal and silence or divorce hurt much worse. Listen to the complaints and figure out what you need to change in yourself.

Your wife's disrespect has nothing to do with whether or not you have an AO.

Don't ever say "I know it's not ok to ever have an AO and it's my choice to react that way, BUT ..." Yes, there was a "but" in that sentence even though you didn't explicitly say it. You are still blaming your AOs on your wife.

It's not doing you a whole lot of good on the shelf, is it? You've got a long way to go to eliminate your AOs, and you better get to it if you want to save your marriage.

This has got to become top priority, then. There's not really any hope for a marriage if you can't control your temper, yet. I've read your other post and I see you've taken anger management and done some work - you need to complete it, and get to the point where no matter what happens, you don't lose your temper.

In order to make your wife feel safe with you, and to save your marriage, you're going to have to make it where she could absolutely walk all over you and you wouldn't react.

That's how calm you are going to have to be for the rest of your life.

And you will need to expect her to test you on that. She's not going to believe you will protect her from your AO for a long, long time.