"I still abuse my wife, even though it's toned down from the past."

"Toned down" abuse is still abuse, and she is wise to stay separated until you have made the marriage safe for her.

Erastis, thank you this is great information.

No all our conversations don't start with her love busters and I'd like to know more about how I can detect when things are heading in the wrong direction. Predicting rather than reacting - what should I look for? I'm thinking it would be similar to what I would look for inside myself when I feel like I'm escalating inside - so watching body language and tone of voice. Do you have any other tips from your experience?

Also, your comment about how I walk away is spot on. I get very short with her and tell her abrubtly that I need to be done with the conversation. And then, if I was looking at myself from the outside, I'm probably huffing away agressively in my body language. Not calm in any way. I need to work on that - staying calm in words AND body language. That's very helpful.

I have also failed with coming back to the complaint. After I leave the conversation, I rarely if ever come back to address the complaint. It's no wonder she is so upset because her complaints are not being addressed. What can I do to remember to come back to it? Should I write it down immediately - any other ideas on what's worked for you?

Yes I have verified she has had no contact and there is no new affair.

I have listened to the radio clips a couple years ago, but I will listen again - that's a good idea - and maybe there are new ones too. I saw the thread on anger management 101 so I will go through it again starting tonight.

Good and yes check the last couple of pages on the anger Management thread because there are new radio clips added to the thread.

Thanks - this is very encouraging and it's helps me see HOW I need to change my mindset. Grateful that she is complaining: that's definitely not something I've ever considered, but getting a taste of being separated from her is showing how painful divorce will be. It's a wake up call.

I'm going to write that down and read it every day to remind myself. Be grateful if she complains. She's giving me the information that will make us both happy. I have been so stupid to take them defensively as attacks.

Prisca and Markos, you're both absolutely right. Stopping my AOs and always remaining calm, no matter what needs to be my top priority. It is what I will focus on. I will go through the Anger Management 101 thread again now.

I also asked permission to go back into our house to get the meter. It is "off the shelf" and I will practice with it again.

First, I suggest the word "thinking". I would stay away from the idea of "predicting" which is essentially the same as DJing your wife in the future sense.

I am suggesting things that would prolong your good conversations as much as possible, even if your wife is LBing you and not handling complaints properly. And also, how you might avoid "walking away" in a fashion that would be a LB on your part.

Does your wife know about MB? Is she on board? Does she know anything about LBs? Or how to complain MB-style?

Your first line of action always should be to examine yourself (LBs, enemies of good convo) and fix those problems. However, being empathetic toward her gives you a second way to catch your own errors if you miss recognizing your problem. It also can help her to stay on track if she is LBing you.

Practical example: I have a history of dominating the conversation with Azurite, and imposing my views. I did several things to change this: accept that I cannot change her, recognize the value of her thoughts (two heads are better than one), and by using a chess clock app on my phone. I developed a new habit of balanced convo time, and respectful convo.

Now, let's say that we are conversing and I miss noticing the fact that I am talking too much. If I am empathetic toward her, I may recognize her silence. That is my second chance. I immediately stop, apologize, and take corrective action. I missed the best point to fix the problem, and I need to go back to the chess clock. But at least I was empathetic and the whole convo wasn't a disaster.

When I have a convo with Azurite, it helps to keep two MB words in the forefront of my mind, taken from the negotiation material: "safe and pleasant". Those certainly apply to all convos whether negotiating or not.

Also check out this article on the friends and enemies of good conversation

As you are talking, is she showing any signs (facial expressions, body language, voice tone, words) whatsoever of feeling unpleasant? Unsafe? Annoyed? Discouraged? Sad? Worried? First, check yourself and apologize for any LB or enemy of good convo going on and stop doing them. Are you trying to impose your thought onto her? Are you triggering her with an unpleasant topic? Are you punishing her in even the slightest way with your words?

Practical example: What if you said, "I sure miss being home." Seems innocent enough. Except that the other ten times you might have said this in previous convos, it triggered a response in her of, "Well, if you weren't such an angry person you could be here." That is a DJ, and an excellent time to immediately change the subject to a topic that you know is highly enjoyable for her. I would also suggest wording it differently next time. How about, "I sure miss being with YOU." Or just don't even go there for now.

When it comes to getting better at this, most of my progress seems to have come from reverse-engineering the failures. As soon as I was calm, I played the video back in my head and pinpointed where she first showed any sign of feeling unhappy. Then I examined any role I played in her unhappiness. Then I could make a plan to fix any problems in me, but also I have a new piece of information that helps me detect if she is becoming unhappy in our convo in the future.

One other thing - do not mix conflict problem-solving topics with your Intimate Conversation. When both of you get past LBing each other, and can address conflicts, you need a separate time for those topics.

By the way, consider exercise as part of your anger management strategy.

DD, I'm going to guess that you alternate between your Giver being in complete control, and your Taker being in complete control. I'm betting you bounce between extremes of feeling like your wife is treating you intolerably versus feeling like you are willing to give away the store and do anything for her.

Am I right?

If so, I would suggest that you learn how to not let either the Giver or the Taker be in control. DigDeeper should be in control and should use the Giver and the Taker as sources of ideas, filtering out ideas that offend one or the other.

Erastis, unfortunately, I don't feel like we ever have "good conversation". It's been years since we have a good conversation because our conversations almost always center around the kids/family or the terrible marriage. The last time I remember connecting over conversation was last Fall when we were on vacation in Hawaii. We went on some walks together and I feel like we had good, relaxed conversation.

W complains that I interrupt her and she doesn't feel like I'm listening. She also hates it when I "parrot" back her words to confirm I'm listening. I feel like she does all the talking and she never hears my perspective, so I have to interrupt. When I get frustrated, I also sharply stop conversations by saying things like "I'm done" or "I can't do this anymore" and physically walk away. When I write it, it's pretty obvious why she doesn't feel safe in our conversations.

Right now, my only chance to have "conversation" is over text because she refuses to talk to me in person about anything other than logistics. she doesn't feel safe talking to me and tells me she needs to protect herself when I ask if she wants to grab a coffee, go to lunch or go out for dinner so we can talk. I see text as an annoying way to communicate, but is that wrong? When I'm at work and I see text coming from her, I feel annoyed and frustrated that I'm going to have to spend the time to answer and have a text conversation.

Markos, you may be right with the Taker and Giver... Here's how this weekend weekend went down and I think my Taker has been in full control. It concluded last night with W telling me that she is going to file the divorce papers and maybe that will be the "slap in my face" that I need.

On Friday night, my daughter danced at a pregame so I decided to book a hotel downtown and have the kids stay with me down there. W did not want to stay at the hotel with us but I did it anyway because I thought it would be fun for the kids. She did come to the game tho and said it was nearly impossible to sit near me at the game because she feels so bad about me. We had minimal interaction at the game because I could tell that she wasn't interested in interacting with me. I did tell her she looked nice at one point but otherwise we didn't really talk much at all. The kids and I had a good time at the hotel, but I felt bad the whole time that my W wasn't there.

I also planned to go skiing with the kids this weekend so I booked a hotel in the mountains on Saturday night and skied with them yesterday. We had a great time and being in the mountains was really nice for me, but my W was not there and she complained to me over text that I went on a ski vacation without her. I asked her if she wanted to come and she refused, but I think this is a prime exhibit of my Taker in action.

I put a lot of focus on the kids this weekend and last week I put a lot of attention toward my job. Honestly, I really like my job and I feel like it's another source of happiness for me. With all the marriage troubles, the only two things that bring me joy are spending time with my kids and working.

All the time that this has been going on, my Giver has been telling me that I need to sacrifice more. Stop working, quit my job, stop doing fun things and put all my focus on my W. Spend all my time meeting her needs even if I feel miserable. It's a constant conflict in my head trying to figure out what exactly I *should* be doing.

At the stage you are at, I would look at conversation as being an opportunity to demonstrate that you are able to control your anger and avoid AOs, SDs, and DJs. And not be concerned yet about whether your needs are being met. Be concerned about whether her needs are being met, and whether the convo is safe and pleasant for her.

Kids/family or convos about "logistics" are a good starting place. She probably has a high need for family commitment, so talking about that topic addresses two needs at once. Work with what you have.

Interruptions are LBing her. Try having your phone or a small pad handy. If you feel the need to interrupt, jot down a word or two about what you wanted to interrupt about. Address it later. At times you may find that you won't even bother to address it later because it turned out to be an emotional reaction and would be fruitless to address.

I have found that repeating back words or paraphrases needs to be done with great care. This is a time of considerable opportunity for DJs. Watch your tone and choice of words. Watch out for rewording what she said in such a way that you are assigning motive to it.

Texting, or even better, email, allows you to THINK through your responses and cut out a lot of emotional reactivity that you would have said or done in person. When you are putting effort into not DJing her, ever notice in texts and emails how many times you will reread and edit your words? That is GOOD. And is exactly what you should be doing in your head when you are talking.

Texting is EXACTLY what you should be doing instead of talking, when 1) you are discussing topics of conflict or just difficult topics, 2) you are having problems with LBs in convos, and 3) she expresses preference for it.

I highly recommend email instead of text for the more difficult topics of conflict. And maybe even writing the email, letting it sit for an hour or three, then re-editing.

For her, texting probably greatly reduces interruptions and AOs, keeps you both brief because it takes more effort to type than talk, and makes her feel safer.

Can you list her top 5 most enjoyable topics of conversation other than family/kids?

W told me last night that I have a big Ego and to get help on these boards, I need to show more humility on the boards. Am I coming across as a know it all? I really want to get help with changing for the better, so what can I do differently on these boards? W recommends I post during the day even though it's hard to do for me when I am working.

I've also been thinking about why my Taker is out of control and I think it comes down to where I think I add value in my relationship. I think I suck at conversation and affection with my W (her 2 most important ENs) so I put more emphasis on the things I think I do well which are financial support through working (W is a SAHM) and family commitment/domestic support by helping with the kids, house, cars, etc. Even though it's obvious why she has fallen out of love with me due to my lack of meeting her top ENs and continued love busters, I still get frustrated because my contributions don't seem to matter. Maybe I'm going about it all wrong and need to stop putting so much focus on financial support (job) and family commitment. Those are important to ME tho so it would be a sacrifice to lessen my contribution in those areas. I'm conflicted and don't know what to do.

This is what comes to mind... I could only think of 3:
1. Travel / vacations (We both share a love for traveling and going to new places)
2. Photography (she used to do this for work and now it's more about photos of our family, etc)
3. Music (Not sure if this is a topic of conversation, but she enjoys finding new music and she also used to be in a choir, played piano)

I don't think Giver/Taker has a whole lot to do with this, and I think you did pretty well here: plan fun things to do as a family, invite your wife, she gets to decide if she will go alone or not, and you won't be demanding, disrespectful, or angry to her about it either way.

In my opinion the fact that she's complaining you went without her is a very good sign - it means she's becoming open to spending time with you and letting you meet her emotional needs. So KEEP doing this kind of thing and keep inviting her, and when she does go along, be totally charming, and definitely don't become demanding, disrespectful, or angry.

The only thing I think Dr. Harley would suggest is to not spend nights away from your wife, but if the two of you are separated that may not be possible to fix at the moment anyway. Even if you are separated you probably shouldn't be taking full vacations without her.

This is ridiculous. You do know what to do.

Do I understand correctly that you've been in the online programme? So you've been coached, week by week, in meeting your wife's ENs? How can you the not know the answer as to what you should be doing - conversation and affection, more than FS and DS?

I have to say that if I were married to someone who simply accepted that they "suck" at conversation and affection, the two most important ROMANTIC things to most women, I would give up on the marriage. If a marriage is to be a marriage, and not just a parenting partnership, a financial support partnership, a housework and yard maintenance partnership - something I can get with a good friend or my sister - it had better have lots of snuggling, hand-holding, spooning, kissing, flowers, perfume and love notes (the first four daily, the latter four - at intervals). It had better have romantic dates, during which we look into each other's eyes and talk. He had better show an interest in what I think about things, and how I feel about things. He had better be someone that I can talk to about my problems at work, and my concerns about my health. There had better be intimacy.

if I want someone that does not do romance, but that can help me with the kids and the housework, and provide me with financial support while I stay at home, I can move in with my mother.

You need to do things for her that no trust fund or nanny or housekeeper can do: provide her with romance. And don't say you "suck" at those things. How did you get her to marry you in the first place? Did you draw up a legal agreement saying that you'd play with the kids, and do housework, and let her stay at home?

I'll bet you didn't. You courted her. Do it again.

How far did you and your wife make it through the online program?


Then you have a few more things to focus on. Every time you have convo, you should be (thoughtfully) initiating topics of family/kids, travel, vacations, photography, music. Spend time during the day Googling some things along these topics. Do your homework.

Music absolutely can be a topic of conversation. You already nailed one on the head - finding new music. Does she still practice piano at all? Ask her what she's been practicing. Compliment her on things you remember her playing.

When you talk about travel/vacations, don't just limit it to specific plans or things you would actually do. Get broader. Dream with her.

Keep working on topics she likes. She needs to know that you actually care about her opinions and thoughts. As couples we can so easily lose that kind of thing in our practical everyday routines.

Stop DJs/AOs at all costs. Ignore your needs for now. Pursue her gently in convo and family time.

I'd guess that she is probably seeing the same sort of DJs that she hears in person from you.

I can pull an example from your previous post:

That's worded as a DJ. Even if your wife was not reading your posts, it would still be a DJ.

In fact, let me just say it this way: If a DJ falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a DJ sound? Answer: Yes. And it will hurt your spouse if she placed a voice recorder in the forest.

Stop the DJs. Learn to communicate even on the forum without them. They aren't useful other than to demonstrate that you have yet to stop them.

SugarCane is right. Intimacy and romantic love are crucial.

I made the same mistake of trying to love Azurite by being a great provider and fixer. Doesn't work if you want a great marriage.

There are important reasons why four emotional needs are specifically listed in the policy of undivided attention. The two that apply to your wife are intimate conversation and affection. They will deposit the most love units.

I see family time as playing a role also, though. If she won't let you make intimate convo or affection deposits, but will let you do family time, by all means do what you can. But I think the potential danger would be getting lazy and not working on IC and A because family time is easier for you.

Regarding the game and the ski trip, I read some possible independent behavior in that. Hard to say because you didn't give the details of how that was negotiated. No matter how good your family time turns out, if you acted independently in arranging it, the love units you gained are leaking out of the bucket.

You most definitely should not be taking trips without your wife, even while separated. You are still married, not single.

If markos had taken a ski trip with the kids while we were separated, it would have sent the message to me that "We're over. We're done. I'm moving on without you." That's really not a message you want to be sending. By all means, plan fun things to do as a family and invite your wife to go along -- but keep it local. If she shows no interest in going on a ski trip, find something else to do.