Wow. Dr. Harley's snooping recommendations actually decrease anxiety through a technique called "flooding." He says to snoop until snooping is boring because you'll never find anything.

If there's a current affair going on you need to gather evidence and expose it.

If there's not a current affair going on you need to snoop until bored, at which point snooping will not cause you anxiety any more.


If there's an active affair going on and you can't Plan A then you need to move to Plan B (and likely give up your marriage) or get medicine to help you be able to Plan B. Get some Paxil or similar for anxiety/panic.

You can't just skip the most important steps because they make you anxious. If you want to survive the affair, these are the things that have to be done. If you aren't going to do them then you should just go ahead and move to Plan B and give up and move on with your life and your own personal recovery.

Ok, I think I didnt give enough details. I snooped for 3 months and didn't find anything, tracking, cell bills, internet history, cell phone etc. no trace of a burner or anything. No unplanned money etc. I will look into increased snooping, I'll look at the snooping thread for more info.

I do think your right, she refuses to work on anything and anytime I bring up a potential conflict she try's to turn it back on me and won't problem solve it. That's been my biggest frustration all along, she would rather just avoid doing anything and mope or just pretend nothing happened. She does this with any hard conflict and just won't deal with it.

I guess I'm looking for advice, we have four kids and I really want to save the marriage, but it just feels like she's checked out and would rather pretend things are fine, cause it's comfy.

What kind of lifestyle does have? Does she go out alone with friends? What does your typical week look like?

She is a SAHM, we have 4 kids. So about one day a week she goes out with friends in the evening, and she sees them during the day probably once or twice during the week.

In our typical week, she gets 3 of 4 kids to school and then has a few hours during the day with DD4 to do her things before its time to get the kids. Then I work till dinner"ish" time, and lately we have been going to the gym as a family after dinner 2 nights a week, then get the kids in bed and her and I have an hour or 2 to get some UA time in or watch TV together. Weekends usually entail getting things done around the house or doing something fun with the kids. I've been intentional about trying to get us a date night out of the house at least every other week, with an 'in-house' date on the weekends... watching a movie, or doing something together.

This hit home for me ML. I think my fear of losing her is unhealthy. It's difficult, because I don't want to throw away what we have or our family, but I've always just acquiesced to what she wants to do because I want to make her happy. Something I've been trying to overcome during this event is the feeling of unworthiness, that she wouldn't have picked me had she not been pregnant. The other fear is the consequences if we end, the pain for the kids, shared custody, shame of getting a D, and the financial setback.

But last night I did some serious thinking and I think you are right, my approach has been 'save it at all costs', and she's taking advantage of that. I also think my failure point is that when we talk about things, I end up getting hurt or emotional and then my reaction is to try to get things to change is to make ME feel better, and she just resists it, cause its what I want.

I am willing to end it, but the costs just seem too great to me, but I'm paying the price emotionally for that...

I appreciate any advice.

What are AO's and DJ's? Where can find the list of abbreviations? Thank you.

This is spot on. So far (thanks to you guys!) I'm realizing that my playing along with her avoiding personality is doing nothing for us to actually fix the issues, we are superficially getting along better, but its not really filling either of our ENs.

What do you think of this plan... She stopped reading SAA because she felt like it gave me 'control' to move our family (something I've wanted to do anyway), but she doesn't want to. I've tried to get her to read HNHN since it was less of a 'punishment' for the A, but that hasn't gotten anywhere, she just refused to do it or ignores it, and if I push she gets agitated.
So, I'm thinking tonight I'd like to sit down with her and request that we start reading either SAA or HNHN together, with the explanation that I want us to have a thriving, fulfilling marriage, and that I believe the methods in the books will help us get there. Also, that it's important to me that we address the issues and not ignore them, for fear that we'll end up with a superficial marriage like we had before the A (since she never expressed her unhappiness, and I would express mine, but we never made any real change and I would ignore it, or over-compensate to fix it alone).

Please let me know what you think?

Also, I think the gaps I have in snooping are: if OM came to the house when I was at work, she had a burner, or they contact via data app (i.e. snapchat) and delete it so I wouldn't notice. I can eliminate the first two with a VAR and cam, but I need suggestions on how to covertly track the cell.

If her phone is an iphone, it remembers where it was and when.
Just innocently ask to use her phone for whatever or sneak a look snd go to:

Settings > privacy > location services > system services > frequent locations > history

There you will find all locations she visited more than a few minutes. If you tip on the location, it will show you when and how long she was there.
If location services or frequent locations are turned off, turn them on.

Thanks happyheart, I'll try it. Webwatcher isn't good enough because she stopped backing up to icloud...

ML - where is this quote from, I'd like to read more.

Here you go! http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2311122#Post2311122

Awesome! Thank you!

Also, what is your opinion of requesting WW to start reading HNHN or SAA together again? With my reasoning being that I want to create romantic love and restore our marriage, and I believe in the MB program.

Some other updates, as part of the fallout of the A we quit attending church, it's been 5 months now and the kids ask almost every weekend if we are going, and they talk about the old church. We've found a new church we both like but we've only gone twice because WW 'isn't there yet', when I ask almost every weekend. I've been avoiding anything that could 'rock the boat' so I just drop it if she says no, but it doesn't sit right with me and its important for me to have the kids back into a church. I sent a text to WW today, saying that I'm planning to go to church this weekend and I'd love to go as a family. Her response was 'maybe... I'll think about it'. I responded with 'thank you! just let me know, I'm planning to go either way'. I decided I need to just do what is right for me and the kids and not let her control me with conflict or anger to make me feel bad about upsetting her. I hope this wasn't a mistake!! thoughts?

POJA would dictate that you make a decision which benefits both of you, a win/win.

Instead what you have done is independent behavior. You basically told her "I am taking the kids to church whether you like it or not, you can come if you want but I am going either way regardless of how you feel."

You need to open the idea of church up for negotiation.

Ok thanks for pointing this out. I haven't said anything about the kids going or not, and every time I've asked recently, she has told me she's fine with me going without her. I guess when she gives me her answer (and hopefully its just that she'll go) we can discuss taking the kids. I'll simply request that I'd like to take the kids and see if she agrees to that or not, if not, I wont take them. I also wont say anything to the kids until I've finalized the agreement with her. Still working on the POJA practice...

POJA also covers whether you go to church on your own, though. It isn't just about whether you take the kids.

I suggest you think about whether your going to church without her is a good idea at all. I have no idea whether church is a point of contention between you, but if it is, you cannot resolve it by simply going alone when she doesn't want to go. You must not behave independently - doing whatever you want to do as if she wasn't there.

How does she feel about your going to church?

The last few times I've asked to go, she's told me repeatedly that she didn't mind if I went without her. But I didn't want to really go without her.

Church was previously a point of contention for us, as I had requested numerous times to dial back our involvement but it was non-negotiable from her end. I also felt that she was puffed up and moderately manipulated to be involved there. This is where previously the POJA would have been helpful, I didn't want the involvement increased, but it did, at what now is obviously a major expense, however it resulted in many AO/DJ from both sides... I believe there's still anger and resentment for that issue which is spilling over into her 'not being there yet'. Also, since the A caused her to give it all up, she told me 'you got what you wanted' as if some how I was to blame because I exposed it. Anyway, it's a very sensitive topic for us, so, she avoids any talk of it unless I bring it up.

Have you eliminated all AOs?

Yes, none in over a month and even before that they were not frequent. Not that it makes much of a difference how frequent. My struggle is DJ, I struggle to resist sometimes when WW try's to pick a fight if we are talking about things. I'm making a serious effort to eliminate them. And haven't in over 2 weeks

Do you have the book Love Busters and read the chapter on DJs?