Its been 4 months since the affair was exposed, all steps except moving have been taken. I'd say we are in some sort of recovery, however WW is unwilling to follow the MB plan, she didn't like that SF was a legitimate emotional need, because she uses as justification for the A (a legitimate issue between us, that I've since improved, but she wont let it go). My WW will not tell me that she's committed to us or me, she says she doesn't want to say it before she feels it, but for me it feels like torture. Like she's holding onto all control and using that to continue to keep me on edge that if I screw up she'll be gone. I don't know why, but I feel that if she commits to me and us I'll feel a huge sense of relief or affirmation. I guess what I'm seeking is affirmation that things will be ok and that if there are mis-steps in the recovery process it wont be the end.
She says she is trying and that her actions should show me that, and I do see improvements, but there's this lingering fear that I cant shake. I feel that I'm competing with the fantasy of the A, and she's waiting to see if I can compare before she decides to commit, but I view the world in the opposite sense, where you need to recommit and then work on creating the feeling.

Is this a legitimate request? Do I just need to give it time? OR is this just me trying to make the pain go away faster?

I think what I'm struggling with is the part of Plan A where it's meeting the WS top emotional needs without anything in return, which is kind of where we are. My emotional needs are not being met and there's an unwillingness to do so. What is hard is that she wants more IC, which we've been working on, but I know that's what OM provided, now I'm struggling with the insecurity that I'm not as "fun" as OM and its hard to meet this emotional need, cause I feel like I'm forcing it or constantly comparing myself to OM, because I know she's comparing it to what they had. Any advice is appreciated!

Have you read SAA? Sue in the book never said sorry for her affair and Dr. Harley has said this is very common for wayward wives, but wayward husband's should show the regret.

Have you confirmed no contact between her and OM?

How much UA time are you getting?

There seems to be some back story missing here. I think you need to start again and give us details about this affair, and tell us what makes you think that it has ended. Since you mention the need to move away, this suggests that OM lives quite close to you. Is that correct?

Who was he - a colleague? A neighbour? How did they conduct their affair? Did they go to hotels? Does she travel for work? Did they use their homes?

How did the affair end? How did you discover the affair?

Hi MEssy, your story is missing background, but the above comment is an indicator the affair is still active. Is there a reason you believe it is over? Do you have actual proof it is over? How close do you live to the OM?

Ok, so I've been reading here for weeks, and fighting the urge go into details, because there's just so many, and fear she'll find my posts and be upset for telling the world. But after watching the events of the 'caught snooping' thread unfold and seeing the similarities I've decided it would be best for me and my marriage if I seek wisdom here.

Here's the backstory you requested:
Wife confessed to feelings for one of my best friends after I pushed, initially, she denied feelings and said the emotional disconnect between us was because she was unhappy with me. This was early September '16. I was devastated, obviously, and went into a severe bout of anxiety/depression. About a week after she confessed these feelings, but told me she wanted to work on us and would change how she was around OM, so as to not make me jealous or hurt, I confronted OM and told him to end any 1 on 1 communication. Due to him being my best friend and both of them being so involved in our church, I foolishly trusted them. Fast forward 4 weeks, I finally got hard evidence that it was an EA, hundreds of texts over a 3 day family vacation and many hours on the phone over the previous weeks. I confronted WW with the evidence, said I know she was having an affair, I told her I wanted to work on things, but she needed to choose, me or him. She choose me and agreed to counseling. I agreed that we would continue our church activities with OM for a week (not knowing the severity of the addiction). After that week she agreed to no contact, and began adjusting work schedule so they wouldn't see each other (worked together). A week and a half later, my tracking indicated she was at his house. I drove there and caught them together, both saying the 'just needed to talk'. It was the day of our first counseling session and she wanted to make sure they were on the same page, cause she knew I'd take it hard when she told me they had discussed their feelings for each other. At this point I was so devastated and hurt I went full exposure. My family, Her family, our friends, and our pastors. (she resents exposure btw).

Since exposure she went into a depressed state, and was only doing counseling cause she had too. Our counselor gave us SAA, which WW stopped reading because it gave me too much "control". She is holding onto resentment for our physical relationship, my lack of parenting, and selfishness. I fully own my part in creating the vulnerability of the affair, I had a porn addiction and was selfish with my time which affected my parenting and her free time. The addiction was outted 6 years ago, but I still struggled off and on with it, however I'm 6 mos completely sober now and have taking drastic steps to stay that way. Also, I've fully changed my behavior to eliminate my 'taker'.

Now I'm trying my best to be in full plan A while she decides if staying is what she really wants. I struggled with not wanting SF from her and that was definitely a LB if I tried anything. Also my anxiety went berserk, and I learned I used sex as my drug for anxiety - dealing with social anxiety stress, and anxiety that we were growing apart and needing to be wanted (I'm an anxious attacher, if you've read much on attachment theory). Anyway, I started anti-anxiety meds and that has helped, within the last month I can manage it such that I'm no longer letting it turn into AO or DJ.

I guess bottom line, I'm struggling to stay positive in plan A, it's been 4 months of NC, but she was so devastated and depressed having to give up both OM and her fulfilling job that she has just barely started to come out of the fog. What I'm struggling with is patience, I know its worth it to be patient, but I just am starving for some of my top ENs to be fulfilled, basically I just want to be wanted again. So that wears on me and I have to fight LBs hard as I try to make her take some more positive actions and 'speed up'.

Appreciate advice so I can ensure I'm doing everything possible to restore the marriage.

ML - I am fairly confident affair is over, I had tracking for a few months, plus access to her phone, and she has friends to hold her accountable to NC as well.

I'll also add that the last month has shown improvements, which is why I believe she's coming out of the fog (albeit slowly), however it was early Oct since last contact, so for her to start coming out of the fog has been good. My evidence of 'out of the fog' is improved attitude (not as irritable), more attentive to household and kids, we've had numerous dates and a weekend away that went very well, great UA and IC on those dates. Less arguing/LB. I guess it's just my anxiety that is driving me nuts to have her say she is committed, when in reality I'll know it when she shows it... I'm just struggling with feelings of 'you messed this up, you better take action to fix it' instead of being stuck trying to win her back.

So neither you or your WW have ANY contact with OM?

Has she quit her job?

Have you quit going to shared church?

Are you making plans to move?

What kind of tracking did you have? Does this indicate that you are no longer keeping tabs on her?

It generally only takes a couple weeks for a WS to start coming out of the fog, if there really is true 100% no contact.

I suspect that there was lingering contact for much longer than you think.

You also sound like you continue to lovebust through AO's and DJ's, and 'arguing' in general.

You need to STOP the lovebusting.

You will NOT win her back if you lovebust her, you will only make the OM look like a far better option.

Yes, neither of us have any contact with OM.
She quit her job at shared church (source of much depression, because she finally had an identity outside of being a mom)
Yes, we quit going to shared church. This is a huge issue and why I think the fog has lingered, she really resents exposure because she had to quit and we left the church. All of her friends and "people" we at the church. She still has constant contact with a few close friends who go there and I know it gets talked about a lot. Also she continued to see things and photos of OM on social media relative to church. It took her a few weeks to disconnect from her social media links to the church. Even though she will say it we cant go back, I know she really wants to go back. We have found another church we like, but its too painful for her to attend at this time, I'm not pushing it because its a LB for her if I try to.
Yes, we are discussing moving about 25-30 miles away, but we are not financially ready to move just yet. I've mentioned numerous times to move much farther, but she doesn't want to leave friends and family.

Tracking was via the phone. She resented it because I had an AO on our anniversary when she stayed out all day and said she was headed home, but stopped at the mall on her way... after that incident we had a new tracking app so she could watch me as well and she did it begrudgingly, it brewed resentment for me cause it felt like a 'punishment'. It also increased my anxiety because I was constantly watching. We discussed how it made both of us feel and since stopped using it. She is good about telling me her plans for the day and checking in when she moves from one place to another.

Yes, I need to stop lovebusting. I went into a severe bout of depression/anxiety and did a terrible job of managing LB. I would do well, but then something would happen that would trigger my anxiety or fear of her leaving and I'd lose it. The last 4-5 weeks my medication has kicked in and I'm really adapting the mindset of "love is patient". It felt unfair that I had to win her back, after I was the one that was hurt, and I let my anger and pain from the hurt interfere. Which is why I turned here, I need help keeping the mindset of plan A. It wears down when my ENs and love bank are not getting filled.

This is not NC.

Continuing to follow OM on social media or hear about him from friends, will keep her perpetually in the fog. This is one reason she has not fully withdrawn from him yet. This will keep him front and center of mind for both of you, and will prevent recovery from even beginning.

Monitoring someone after an affair is very important. This is because affairs are so addictive, it is very difficult to stay away from the high. Unfortunately, simply having a tracking device on her phone that she knows about, is not enough to prevent her from seeking out that high. It is very easy to circumvent.

For the record, both my H and I have tracking devices on our phones and use them without each other's knowledge whenever we want. I harbor no resentment for this AT ALL, I welcome him to track my whereabouts whenever he wants to. What about that makes you feel resentful?

Here is what I hear...."yes, I need to stop lovebusting. BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH" because NONE of those are acceptable reasons or excuses for your abuse. AO's are abusive. AO's and DJ's are NOT in line with Plan A. What you are telling me is that you have never done Plan A. Filling needs while also lovebusting to this extent, is like putting rocks in a bucket with a giant hole in the bottom. It is no wonder she is unsure of whether to invest in the marriage.

She's owns the affair. You own your lovebusting.

Just STOP.

Agreed. She blocked him on all social media accounts, unfortunately I can't control if her friends talk about OM, I'd like to believe they dont because they know the issue, I've tried to bring up my concerns with her friends, but she gets extremely angry and defensive. I think my concern is she still hears very much about the church which is a sore wound. She despises that we had to leave the church, granted she owns her decisions caused this to happen, she's just not letting go of the church.

Resentment was on her part, she resented that I needed to "control" her. For me, knowing I could track her was perpetuating my anxiety, I couldn't focus if she was driving somewhere, I'd just watch it. Once we stopped, and it became simply communication of whereabouts that helped me relax and not obsess on it. Also, it gives us more reason to have positive communication during the day.

Completely agree. I've worked really hard and been successful the last 5 weeks of eliminating LB. Which I believe is why I'm seeing progress and having her start to de-fog.

Messy, there are a lot of RED FLAGS in your story and I would suggest upping your snooping. All this "resentment" is a sign of the FOG and that concerns me. Why is she fogged out? fog is a sign of an ongoing contact. Accusing you of "controlling" her just because you track her whereabouts is also a huge red flag. A normal person who has nothing to hide would not resent that because snooping would clear her good name. Just ask yourself if you "resent" your spouse checking on you? I sure don't. My husband sure doesn't.

Knowing where she is at all times is not "controlling." That is a ploy used by manipulative women to force her will.


This makes no sense at all. How can her self reporting about her whereabouts make you relax more than some good old fashioned snooping? Snooping on my husband helped me relax and helped me grow to TRUST him. Obviously, you can't trust her word, so how does that make you relax? An illusion?

ML - this is exactly where I'm struggling. She's convinced I was controlling, objectified her (selfish with SF), and a negligent father. All gaslighting as far as I'm concerned, because according to her it's been this way for years and she was unhappy, but never could communicate it to me, or anyone else for that matter. Which is why I know its gaslighting, it wasn't until she had a point of comparison that she determined it to be her unhappiness. She has valid reasons (my addiction, anxiety, and selfishness) but spends way too much time focused on that to justify it. IMO, she had decided she was done, but is only staying because the consequences of leaving were too severe, and so she felt she needed to 'show up' to the marriage.

I agree, I need to increase my snooping, however, snooping drives my anxiety up (cause I expect to find things) and it triggers significant anxiety about her calling it quits. It may be hard to understand if you haven't struggled with anxiety, but I've found it's healthier for me to have a more "I don't care approach" to snooping. Yes, I fully acknowledge I run the risk of more D-days, but I haven't been able to snoop and successfully manage my anxiety which in turn makes it hard for me to fully plan A, because I can't turn off the anxious thoughts of her leaving, so I struggle with a need to seek reassurance that she will stay which drives her away. I need to work on it, because I don't want to get caught flat footed by a FR.

Hence, why I started this post, she wont say that she's committed to working on the marriage, she will only say that right now she wants to try and work on things, but I know deep down, shes trying to decide if she wants to deal with the consequences of leaving. Her statement last week was "I'm not sure what we have was ever good, or could ever be fulfilling"...

I've found if I don't go near relationship talks and just 'act like all is normal' things go the best for us. So that's what I'm trying to do, full on plan A. But if feels to me like we are just ignoring the issues at hand, but maybe that's good? I don't know, that's why I need your help.

That sounds like a conflict avoidance strategy to me. How can it increase your anxiety if you confirm - without her knowing - that she is being faithful? Does it give you anxiety because you know you will catch her doing something? And you would rather not know?


I don't think your goal of staying married at all cost is helping your marriage. She seems to understand you have no standards and only want to keep her around at any cost. This smacks of unconditional love which leads to neglect and abuse. She never will have any motivation to work on the marriage because she knows you will accept her on any basis no matter what.

What would happen if she left you? I predict that is what you are facing because she is clearly checked out of this marriage.

Wow. Dr. Harley's snooping recommendations actually decrease anxiety through a technique called "flooding." He says to snoop until snooping is boring because you'll never find anything.

If there's a current affair going on you need to gather evidence and expose it.

If there's not a current affair going on you need to snoop until bored, at which point snooping will not cause you anxiety any more.


If there's an active affair going on and you can't Plan A then you need to move to Plan B (and likely give up your marriage) or get medicine to help you be able to Plan B. Get some Paxil or similar for anxiety/panic.

You can't just skip the most important steps because they make you anxious. If you want to survive the affair, these are the things that have to be done. If you aren't going to do them then you should just go ahead and move to Plan B and give up and move on with your life and your own personal recovery.

Ok, I think I didnt give enough details. I snooped for 3 months and didn't find anything, tracking, cell bills, internet history, cell phone etc. no trace of a burner or anything. No unplanned money etc. I will look into increased snooping, I'll look at the snooping thread for more info.

I do think your right, she refuses to work on anything and anytime I bring up a potential conflict she try's to turn it back on me and won't problem solve it. That's been my biggest frustration all along, she would rather just avoid doing anything and mope or just pretend nothing happened. She does this with any hard conflict and just won't deal with it.

I guess I'm looking for advice, we have four kids and I really want to save the marriage, but it just feels like she's checked out and would rather pretend things are fine, cause it's comfy.

What kind of lifestyle does have? Does she go out alone with friends? What does your typical week look like?

She is a SAHM, we have 4 kids. So about one day a week she goes out with friends in the evening, and she sees them during the day probably once or twice during the week.

In our typical week, she gets 3 of 4 kids to school and then has a few hours during the day with DD4 to do her things before its time to get the kids. Then I work till dinner"ish" time, and lately we have been going to the gym as a family after dinner 2 nights a week, then get the kids in bed and her and I have an hour or 2 to get some UA time in or watch TV together. Weekends usually entail getting things done around the house or doing something fun with the kids. I've been intentional about trying to get us a date night out of the house at least every other week, with an 'in-house' date on the weekends... watching a movie, or doing something together.

This hit home for me ML. I think my fear of losing her is unhealthy. It's difficult, because I don't want to throw away what we have or our family, but I've always just acquiesced to what she wants to do because I want to make her happy. Something I've been trying to overcome during this event is the feeling of unworthiness, that she wouldn't have picked me had she not been pregnant. The other fear is the consequences if we end, the pain for the kids, shared custody, shame of getting a D, and the financial setback.

But last night I did some serious thinking and I think you are right, my approach has been 'save it at all costs', and she's taking advantage of that. I also think my failure point is that when we talk about things, I end up getting hurt or emotional and then my reaction is to try to get things to change is to make ME feel better, and she just resists it, cause its what I want.

I am willing to end it, but the costs just seem too great to me, but I'm paying the price emotionally for that...

I appreciate any advice.

What are AO's and DJ's? Where can find the list of abbreviations? Thank you.

This is spot on. So far (thanks to you guys!) I'm realizing that my playing along with her avoiding personality is doing nothing for us to actually fix the issues, we are superficially getting along better, but its not really filling either of our ENs.

What do you think of this plan... She stopped reading SAA because she felt like it gave me 'control' to move our family (something I've wanted to do anyway), but she doesn't want to. I've tried to get her to read HNHN since it was less of a 'punishment' for the A, but that hasn't gotten anywhere, she just refused to do it or ignores it, and if I push she gets agitated.
So, I'm thinking tonight I'd like to sit down with her and request that we start reading either SAA or HNHN together, with the explanation that I want us to have a thriving, fulfilling marriage, and that I believe the methods in the books will help us get there. Also, that it's important to me that we address the issues and not ignore them, for fear that we'll end up with a superficial marriage like we had before the A (since she never expressed her unhappiness, and I would express mine, but we never made any real change and I would ignore it, or over-compensate to fix it alone).

Please let me know what you think?

Also, I think the gaps I have in snooping are: if OM came to the house when I was at work, she had a burner, or they contact via data app (i.e. snapchat) and delete it so I wouldn't notice. I can eliminate the first two with a VAR and cam, but I need suggestions on how to covertly track the cell.

If her phone is an iphone, it remembers where it was and when.
Just innocently ask to use her phone for whatever or sneak a look snd go to:

Settings > privacy > location services > system services > frequent locations > history

There you will find all locations she visited more than a few minutes. If you tip on the location, it will show you when and how long she was there.
If location services or frequent locations are turned off, turn them on.

Thanks happyheart, I'll try it. Webwatcher isn't good enough because she stopped backing up to icloud...

ML - where is this quote from, I'd like to read more.

Here you go! http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2311122#Post2311122

Awesome! Thank you!

Also, what is your opinion of requesting WW to start reading HNHN or SAA together again? With my reasoning being that I want to create romantic love and restore our marriage, and I believe in the MB program.

Some other updates, as part of the fallout of the A we quit attending church, it's been 5 months now and the kids ask almost every weekend if we are going, and they talk about the old church. We've found a new church we both like but we've only gone twice because WW 'isn't there yet', when I ask almost every weekend. I've been avoiding anything that could 'rock the boat' so I just drop it if she says no, but it doesn't sit right with me and its important for me to have the kids back into a church. I sent a text to WW today, saying that I'm planning to go to church this weekend and I'd love to go as a family. Her response was 'maybe... I'll think about it'. I responded with 'thank you! just let me know, I'm planning to go either way'. I decided I need to just do what is right for me and the kids and not let her control me with conflict or anger to make me feel bad about upsetting her. I hope this wasn't a mistake!! thoughts?

POJA would dictate that you make a decision which benefits both of you, a win/win.

Instead what you have done is independent behavior. You basically told her "I am taking the kids to church whether you like it or not, you can come if you want but I am going either way regardless of how you feel."

You need to open the idea of church up for negotiation.

Ok thanks for pointing this out. I haven't said anything about the kids going or not, and every time I've asked recently, she has told me she's fine with me going without her. I guess when she gives me her answer (and hopefully its just that she'll go) we can discuss taking the kids. I'll simply request that I'd like to take the kids and see if she agrees to that or not, if not, I wont take them. I also wont say anything to the kids until I've finalized the agreement with her. Still working on the POJA practice...

POJA also covers whether you go to church on your own, though. It isn't just about whether you take the kids.

I suggest you think about whether your going to church without her is a good idea at all. I have no idea whether church is a point of contention between you, but if it is, you cannot resolve it by simply going alone when she doesn't want to go. You must not behave independently - doing whatever you want to do as if she wasn't there.

How does she feel about your going to church?

The last few times I've asked to go, she's told me repeatedly that she didn't mind if I went without her. But I didn't want to really go without her.

Church was previously a point of contention for us, as I had requested numerous times to dial back our involvement but it was non-negotiable from her end. I also felt that she was puffed up and moderately manipulated to be involved there. This is where previously the POJA would have been helpful, I didn't want the involvement increased, but it did, at what now is obviously a major expense, however it resulted in many AO/DJ from both sides... I believe there's still anger and resentment for that issue which is spilling over into her 'not being there yet'. Also, since the A caused her to give it all up, she told me 'you got what you wanted' as if some how I was to blame because I exposed it. Anyway, it's a very sensitive topic for us, so, she avoids any talk of it unless I bring it up.

Have you eliminated all AOs?

Yes, none in over a month and even before that they were not frequent. Not that it makes much of a difference how frequent. My struggle is DJ, I struggle to resist sometimes when WW try's to pick a fight if we are talking about things. I'm making a serious effort to eliminate them. And haven't in over 2 weeks

Do you have the book Love Busters and read the chapter on DJs?

What do you think is the best thing for your marriage at this stage, given that she is withdrawn from you because of her affair, and won't go? This is probably not the only pace that she won't go with you.

Is it best to take her at her word and go without her? My worry is that she wants you to go, partly because it gets you away from her, and partly because she doesn't care what you do.

Your task is to try and rebuild closeness with her. I'm not convinced that following anything separately from her is the right thing, at this time.

I think I agree I'll just wait until she's ready.

Do you guys think it's ok to ask for her phone? Im afraid it's love bank withdrawal...

I was able to get the phone for a min this morn, checked frequent locations and all of them were good, places she told me she had been.

WW is headed to a new counselor this morning, I pray she is helpful, WW has some major wounds to heal from and I hope as she heals she lets me back in.

That is good! How were you able to sneak it away? Would you be able to get it longer and slip some spyware on it?


This is not good news, unfortunately. Counselors are very destructive to marriages, especially when there has been an affair.

I swiped it for just a min while she was in he shower, but she peeked as soon as I made some noise. I didn't get caught though. I need to get the iCloud to backup so webwatcher will work. She's crazy protective of her phone, even takes it when she gets up to go to the bathroom at night. It's got me suspicious, obviously. She views me taking the phone as controlling and an invasion of privacy.

I tend to agree about the counsellors, but I have high hopes for this one. Ww has never really dealt with some major things in her past, getting pregnant at 17, my porn addiction, now this. Also, given that she is an avoidant personality she would avoid it if it weren't for counseling. However there's the obvious risk that she gets validation and is encouraged to be her own person... We shall see.

We'll see what comes of the church request.

Also, another big issue is that she has an aversion to SF. We never communicated about it in the past and she built up a resentment to it, and obviously now is using that to demonize me. I'm not sure how to work thru that other than we agreed to abstain until she desires it again. But it's pretty painful to hear your spouse tell you she doesn't desire SF with you... Ugh, and before getting on board with MB I was clingy and needy in that area which has just made it worse, I used it to reassure myself... I've been really changed the last 4 or 5 weeks, but there is no affection or anything from her, I guess this is the part of plan a that is the endurance time... Any advice in that area is much appreciated

This is a huge red flag.

People who have nothing to hide do not behave this way.

Recovery from an affair starts with NC and creating an environment which makes rekindling the affair next to impossible. This is done by creating EP's (extraordinary precautions) to safeguard your marriage. Here is the list Dr Harley provides in Surviving an Affair. I don't see that it has been posted to you before, but can you please tell us what has been done on this list? Clearly 'provide technical accountability' has NOT.

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

People who have nothing to hide, don't hide. She is obviously hiding something.


That is great..........for the "counselors" bank account!! But it will just make your situation worse. I agree it is a cash cow for counselors but dragging up the past just makes the present WORSE. It will hurt your marriage and your wife.


Right, it is because she is not emotionally attached you and is hiding something. Her lovebank is closed to you because it is open to someone else.

I would put money on the fact that she is still communicating with her AP, or she has other SSL behavior she is hiding from you.

There are just too many red flags here to think otherwise.

here

here

here

Here
Beware of Bad Counselors

Thanks for all the info! I'll be reading thru it today. Sorry, it's harder for me to respond on weekends.

ML- as far as the list, the only two things she hasn't done is the letter and we haven't moved (yet). Technical accountability is a partial, she will let me look at her phone but it's always uncomfortable. I have access to all her email and social media accounts. She's blocked OM on all of it. None the less I too am concerned there is ongoing contact given the continued disconnect and unwillingness to fight for us. So I will be installing some VARs this week.

I do think she had just decided she was done with me, OM is not really an option right now, he as first child due in a month or so, and if they tried to get together both would have to give up literally everything and everyone in their life, so it's impractical, but I also understand the power of addiction. I think WW is just too stubborn to come back yet and has demonized me, hence why i have to change that via plan A.

With regards to the conselor, WW came home very enthusiastic about her, and was very talkative and in a good mood all day, she asked if we could go out for lunch, so we went out and did some shopping together, it ended up being a great day,. Adding in some great family time in the evening and a movie for WW and I. I'm optimistic that this counselor will be a good fit, she has personal history with WW and knows about the issues surrounding the pregnancy at 17. I think why WW needs to deal with it is because she's in this spot of thinking she had always done what "everyone said was best", hence marrying me for financial security etc, it's as if she's having a full blown midlife crisis. I hope and pray that as I continue to deposit into her love bank she'll start to see she did it because she wanted to and because she loved me, not just because people told her too or she felt pressured to.

I don't know, I can completely see how counsellors can be bad, in fact we are ending our couples counseling because it was bad, although that's how we found MB, but WW hasn't been this close to her old self in months... Maybe it's helping?

Thanks for all the advice! Time to go make some love bank deposits

She is in complete defiance of the checklist: _____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

She still HAS social media. And a wetbrain could "unblock" the OM in 2 seconds flat. Nor do you even know if she has ended contact because she keeps her phone hidden frm you. Showing you her phone is a meaningless gesture because she can delete and hide anything.

The goal of the checklist is transparency and she is hiding things. I get real concerned when I see BS's engaging in a check the box exercise to make themselves feel better when their WS is obviously not going along with the program. You just told us yesterday that:



The fact that she came home in a good mood does not mean the session was good for your marriage, though. The problem with individual counselors is that they help the client achieve her personal goals, regardless of its impact on the marriage. For example, if they are coaching someone in an affair, they would help that person pursue the affair and get out of her marriage.

I am not trying to be a downer, but you should not imagine that her counseling is going to help your marriage. It is not. She is not there to help her marriage. And talking about the tragedies of the past is damaging to your wife and your marriage.

I can tell you why it is uncomfortable. Your WW is deleting things off her phone that she does not want you to see, and then she is handing it over so you can see that she is not hiding anything. The reason it is uncomfortable, is because she is nervous that maybe she forgot something that you will find. I am guessing she hands it over to you, but stays very close even looking over your shoulder nervously, and takes it away as quickly as possible.

This is not even close to technical accountability.....

This is irrelevant. Oh how we wish that waywards were inclined to care about important events like the birth of a first child. But they're not. What they care about is getting a fix.

He is still an option, and even if it is not a practical option to the average person, the wayward brain does not care about rational practical decision making. You ARE underestimating the power of the addiction.

Threadjack to say I think unwritten is one of the best, most consistent posters on this forum. We are lucky to have her!

First child is a red flag, men who expect their first born are prone to having affairs. A former BF contacted me while his wife was pregnant with their first. I didn't know he had a wife and we rekindled, so I was the affair partner. I was devastated and cut off contact.

After their second child was born, I was notified he checked my LinkedIn profile several times. Before, I was certain this wouldn't happen to me in a million years. But I was tempted.

Don't underestimate the toxicity of an affair. His wife is most probably not at her best meeting his needs at this moment. It only takes one weak moment.

I'm sufficiently convinced that contact is ongoing, hence the VARs. Not sure what else I can do except monitoring software.

WW has been uncharacteristically short with me lately, which also fuels my concern about ongoing contact.

Also, She has told me that she doesn't understand why I need covenant eyes, that if I was truly better i wouldn't need it... She said I just have it so I can tell her I want to see her phone. *rolleyes*. Maybe tonight I'll just ask to see her phone...

She hints that it's weak to use covenant eyes, but happily scowers the reports every week...

Honestly this is just tiring, it's been 5 months since discovery and I'm struggling to stay motivated, my love bank is draining I fear...

Is covenant eyes a keylogger? And I take it she is aware of it?

i would stop doing that. It is a useless gesture and just causes conflict for absolutely no legitimate reason.

Good point, I haven't asked for it in a while and didn't last night.

Covenant eyes is a monitoring software for mature porn, she gets reports of my activity every week

Well, some good news/bad news. WW was very agreeable to go to church yesterday and it was seemingly great, all the kids were happy to be going. The sermon is related to relationships, and it was something I wish I had heard 10 years ago, about not being selfish, and leaving behind old ways of only watching out for yourself. Anyway at one point the pastor made mention of being in a marriage to serve your spouse and put their needs above yours, she became angry at this, to the point where she actually pushed my hand away during prayer, instead of holding hands like we normally do...

I could obviously tell she was upset, and didn't want to bring it up with the kids in the car. I just asked if she was ok, and she said 'not really'. Well, my valentines day gift had come in the mail, so I wrote her a very long note, highlighting that I'm committed to changing and meeting her needs, and that I took a lot away from the sermon, and that I'm waiting patiently for her and reminiscing a bit too since we first started dating around valentines day. I left the note and the gift on the bed for her and told her there was something waiting for her and went about cleaning the house/laundry.

I gave her some time alone with the note and gift and then went in to see her (she loved the gift btw!). We sat down to start talking a little bit, and she finally said if she's being honest with herself, she's angry. She didn't go into details about why, but I assumed its a mixture of things, but she's primarily angry with me. Angry that I didn't meet her needs for so many years, angry that I exposed things, angry about what she's done and the consequences.

I told her its difficult for me that she's so laser focused on what I did or didn't do to meet her needs for so long, I told her it feels like she's justifying what she did and not will to see all the good that we had. I apologized again for the way I didn't meet her needs in the past and that I see it now and I'm committed to changing. She acknowledged that she sees the changes and that she needs to work through her anger. Which is what shes doing with her new counselor. We talked for a bit longer and it was very 'emotion free' even though I was struggling with wanting to say 'you don't get to be angry', but I was able to maintain a non LB state and we talked through it proactively. She agreed that she needs to work on her anger, which is waaay more than shes said to date. She also gave me a real hug and kiss before she left for a few min to drive so she could clear her head before we went out with friends last night. Again this morning I got a real hug (better than any since discovery) where it actually felt like she wanted to hug me, not because I initiated things.

Sorry for the rambling, but I'm slightly optimistic, she seems like she's moving out of the fog and into the 'work on it' stage... praying its real!

Does she have a habit of driving to clear her head? Or did she want to talk to someone on the phone without being heard?

Did you mention in your note that you do not agree with this?

It is not unusual for pastors to give sermons about sacrifice. This is not in line with MB at all, Dr Harley does not believe in sacrificing for your spouse as it creates resentment in the marriage. Instead he believes in win/win solutions where everybody is happy and nobody has to sacrifice.

Pray to God but row for the shore.

There are many red flags here, it is NOT real if there is still contact with the AP going on. What sources of spyware do you still have in place? Do you have a VAR in her car?

T/J to say thank you to MelodyLane, you are too kind

Yes, with 4 kids in the house there is never a quiet spot to hide, and when she tries to get some time alone one of them seeks her out. So this is not abnormal for either of us.

When we talked I made a point to say that the pastor specifically gave an example where this being one sided is unhealthy and thats if that the case at somepoint that person wakes up and says 'what about my needs'. Which is basically what happened with us, except instead of communicating unmet needs to me, it happened with OM...

I also added that I don't think that's healthy, that it should be a mutual desire to meet each others needs, without having to sacrifice, but yes, it's probably worth re-iterating the MB principles here.

Just got the VAR today, its going in the car as an experiment, if it works well I'll add more to the house, if any of the VAR data raises my suspicion I'll add video capability.

I'm in a hope, but verify state.

That is sensible.

Totally agree!! Love unwritten!!

Do you have any spyware on her devices?

So I guess with days, come bad days...

Just really struggling today, had a conversation with WW and I struggle with my communication being perceived as DJ. It's hard because she's telling me she's angry, and I say yea that makes sense, but if I tell her what I'm feeling, she interprets it as trying to change her opinion. She also let me in on more of her counseling discussion, and how she's thinking she got married because she wanted everything to look good, despite the real issues that existed. So now I'm stuck, waiting for her to decide if she wants to save the marriage, or if she got married for all the wrong reasons and now has to 'do something for herself'... I don't know maybe I'm catastrophizing her words, and maybe she just needs to work through those feelings if they exist and not just ignore them. I guess for me its just devastating to hear what she is saying... this is hard, and it sucks to be hurting so badly on valentines day, somehow I have to manage to get myself back in a good mood so I can plan A.

Thanks for reading through my venting session.

No, I haven't been able to.

Also, a fun point was made, that all my plan A efforts just make her angry. She said it feels like a competition to see will get the dishes done first now. Feels like I just can't win.

Sorry, I know I'm complaining a lot today...

Some new updates...

First off, after re-reading my posts from the other day I was just distraught from a hard conversation with WW, I was thinking I was being empathetic and acknowledging her feelings as legitimate, however she still felt I was trying to dismiss them since I brought up my feelings. I since apologized and told her I see her perspective and said my feelings are real as well, but that shouldn't mean I try to change her point of view. It's my own stubbornness to not try and solve the problem when logic is so clear that she's fogged...after that things settled down.

I also informed WW that I've been working on my anxiety and insecurities and that I feel I'm in a place where I don't need to use her to cope with anxiety or compensate for insecurities. I told her I'm fighting to save our marriage because I love her and I believe we can have something amazing and that God will use this to refine us into the people He made us to be and we'll have an amazing fulfilling marriage.

At this she told me that her counselor has suggested she have some time alone to get some clarity of thought to figure out what she really wants. I asked if she meant a separation, she said no, just some time to reflect and determine what she wants. After I told her I'm confident in what I want, she said that she owes it to me to as confident as I am, and be 'all in' to saving the marriage, she plans to use this 'alone time' to do some soul searching to see if she can overcome the past (i.e. what I did wrong). Not sure how supportive of the I should be?

Also, it's got me thinking I need to start prepping for plan b. any advice is much appreciated.

Know that when a wayward wants "alone time" or "space" to think things out, what she is really asking for is for you to leave her alone to continue her affair in peace.

Don't make disrespectful judgements of her desire to be left alone, and don't debate her, but don't leave her alone either. Continue with Plan A until you are in Plan B.

Did I read right that you've been at this 5 months?
Dr. Harley recommends at least 6 months of Plan A for men. He sometimes encourages men to go longer -- you might want to talk to him about that and see if it would be good in your case.

Know that most WW do not respond to Plan B very well. It should be the absolute last step you take, because it will likely end your marriage. Are you feeling like you can't take it anymore? Is all this beginning to affect your health?

A WW that gets angry over Plan A efforts is a good thing It irritates her when you make lovebank deposits, because it doesn't fit with the narrative in her mind that you are a monster. Ignore the anger, and continue with the Plan A efforts despite it.

She hasn't yet said what she wants to do for her alone time, I told her to determine what it was that she wanted to do and we'd discuss it.

Yes, it will be 6 mos in a few weeks. I started AD's a few months into this and that has stabilized my health, otherwise I was going waste away to nothing or lose my job. Still the emotional roller coaster is exhausting for me.

My thinking is that if WW gets her alone time she might come back and want a D, at which point I'll probable go into plan B, maybe not? still plan A until the D is final?

Don't discuss it. And don't leave her alone. Continue with Plan A until you are in Plan B.

As long as you are doing okay physically, and as long as you are able to remain calm and not lose control of your emotions, you can continue Plan A. You can probably Plan A until the divorce is final.

Given that you are at the 6 months mark, though, write Dr. Harley and get his advice on whether you should continue with Plan A or go straight to Plan B. He sometimes tells men to go longer, and sometimes tells them to go to Plan B.

In the end, it's really up to you. No one would blame you if you went to Plan B and just moved on with your life.

I struggle with not honoring her request for alone time. I've been waiting for 5 months for her to start engaging in the healing process, so far she's basically been stuck in the fog and depression, she's now putting real energy into healing, and the first step for her is to make a decision if she wants to recover our marriage. I'm optimistic that her time away would result in a decision to move forward with recovery or move on with a D.

The anxiety of living in limbo, waiting for her to decide to engage is a terrible thing to endure, but I certainly don't want to enable the A...

Wanting time alone is NOT a step toward healing your marriage. Nothing good comes from a WW taking time away by herself. She is not putting energy into healing, she is running away from you and towards her affair.

If you let her go away by herself, you will be sending the message loud and clear that she's not worth pursuing.

So, don't debate her on her desire to get away. Don't discuss it. But, don't leave her alone either. Plan A is your best bet to turning this around (and you won't be able to Plan A if she's off by herself).

Thanks, I won't discuss it. Hopefully she can come to a conclusion on her own without a need to go on some type of sabbatical.

you don't want to tell her that, just lure her into spending time with you by making offers she can't refuse...

So I haven't been able to get move past the need for alone time. I'm getting a strong, disconnected vibe from her and even when we embrace, it feels more like a pity embrace, like she's doing it cause she knows she's about to hurt me by telling me she's done.

I don't know what to do, she's an avoidant personality, is afraid to act on it so she is dragging this out, I just cant see how she'll say she wants to stay, there isn't any love headed my way, just pity or empathy I guess. I fear she's convinced herself she's done and is just working up the courage to end it.

Last night it was all I could do to not call her out on it, and tell her I can tell she is done, but I didn't, still trying to stay in plan A. But the suspense is killing me, I am really struggling to maintain plan A when I feel like she's done and just doesn't have the courage to tell me.

Should I bring it up? I need advice please, also I'm thinking maybe I should talk to Dr. Harley, what's the best way to get in touch with him?

thanks in advance.

It is normal and natural for women to fall in love with men they do not initially like, when they meet their emotional needs and are persistent and not deterred by their obvious rejection. Happens all the time.

Persistence.

Thought I'd provide an update and seek some adivice, still managing plan A as best I can. WW is somewhat responsive, but still not committed or ready to actively work on the marriage. She is content to stay where we currently are in this stage of limbo. She's not willing to commit to me or the marriage yet, so I'm still the only one actively working on improving things. SShe makes almost zero LB deposits for me. She hasn't had her 'away' time yet, and though we've talked about it, she still doesn't know that if she gets it, she'll be able to make a decision.

All indications are that the A is still over (VAR, electronic records). But there's always a chance they've been able to hide it...

I'm still struggling with DJ (unintentional) when we have conversations about where things are. The pain of living with the woman you love and living together as if nothing is wrong but knowing she doesn't love you and is trying to decide if she wants to end things is unbearable at times, and it comes out in the form of DJ to try and get her to move out of her indecision in order to gain closure. I'm really struggling with this area, I'm not sure how to manage that emotion all the time. It usually comes out as me either shutting down, or trying to get her to meet my key ENs (though shes unwilling to) which then turns into a DJ or AO because she just is stuck and I'm frustrated that I can't get her to take action. Any suggestions?

At this point its been 7 months of plan A, now I fully acknowledge I haven't been perfect these 7 months, mostly in the form of DJ as a result of the emotional pain of the A being toxic and seeping out. However, I've corrected many of primary issues she cited that lead to the vulnerability for the A. I'm 7+ months sober from porn, really involved with the kids and around the house. Bottom line is WW doesn't feel love towards me, but is mostly feeling resentment and anger, and isn't sure if she can let go of the past. During any discussion she response to my DJ's with long, venomous rewrites of the past, focusing on negatives.

At this point I feel like my options are as follows:
1) Continue plan A and STOP the DJ (something I need to figure out, because the pain keeps causing me to try and 'fix' things)

2) Plan B

3) Request WW decide if she can recommit to the M and start working on MB and meeting each others EN by XX date, and if she can't Plan B.

Thoughts?

Well some things have changed for the better since the last post.

First off, I was able to find new resolve to maintain plan A, now focused even more on being myself and eliminating LB.

Secondly, and more importantly, after an issue yesterday we talked briefly and then decided together to wait until emotions had died to continue the conversation. I took the time to refocus and study SAA again and when we talked about things later, I was able to explain the issue in terms of LB and basically said there is so much anger on both sides right now that I would like to start working on MB again and trying to figure out how we can get over the LB.

At that point, I told WW that it's been 7 months, and that we've been caught in a cycle for most of it, where things are 'ok' for a few weeks, (because we ignore the issues) and then something triggers a skirmish that escalates quickly and results in many LB on both sides. I said I'm ready to find greatness with her and made the request that we start working through the recovery section of SAA. I ended the conversation there and waited until this morning to bring it up again, requesting that she take some time to think about my request and let me know. Here's the good news... She said yes! She's agreed to start working through SAA I can sense the reluctancey, but she's at least said she will.

This is great news for me, now I know the proof will be in the follow through and I need to manage a pace that is comfortable for her and allows us both to fully implement the MB.

So now my question is this, should I order the LB book, or is the info in SAA sufficient? BTW, we also have HNHN & Fall in Love, stay in love.

Thanks!

Yes, you should get Lovebusters. And you should get He Wins, She Wins. HNHN is only 1/3 of the program.

And Messy, you need to be listening to Dr. Harley's radio program, daily - you can get an app for your phone and listen. It's free. Have you heard it?

Prisca - Thanks I'll order a copy of LB.

Markos - I will definitely get the MB radio app. I've only listened to clips so far.

I am planning on proceeding gently with this, if I push to hard or try to force it (SD!) she'll run away from it... This is the first time since D-day +4 weeks that she's willing to go near MB... Please pray that she joins the fight.

Update for you, I picked up LB and will start reading it this week, we were out of town all weekend and had an overall good time.

We had our first MB conversation and WW was not too enthusiastic. She didn't finish the chapter in SAA, I was disappointed because it was only 14 pages and it wasn't a priority to read.

It's clear WW is still in the fog babble stage, and I fear she is getting affirmation from her IC. Making comments about it wasn't 50/50 fault, and that I was the one responsible for our bad marriage, I guess this means I'm also responsible for the A too? I didn't refute the comment about who owned more LB prior to the A and I continued the conversation by basically owning the LB's that I had done in the past, however she didn't think she had committed many LB. Again, making me believe she is still justifying the affair. Even telling me how she had discussed me with her IC and that 'people like me' behave impulsively and can't control themselves (due to porn), again, painting me as the monster. I own my issues in that area and have taken EP to fix it and I'm 8 mos sober. But she said that being around her is like an alcoholic being in a bar, due to my desire for SF - mind you, we haven't had any for over 3 months and I haven't requested it during that time.

Overall the conversation was disappointing for me, she acknowledged that she appreciates me being more 'introspective' and working on things, but it feels all one-sided at this point to me because she's still just 'showing up' to use her terms and is unable to show me love because she doesn't feel it, but will tell me she loves me? I'm confused, so many mixed signals. She feels like MB is 'childish' due to the terminology or 'common sense' and that you shouldn't have to read the books to identify what you're doing that are LB. Again, lack of ownership on her part.

I'm still just not sure what to do, I have a growing resentment towards WW, not because of the A, but because of the inability to make a decision and work actively on the marriage. The pride and indecision she is showing is extremely unattractive. Even when she asked me what I felt one of her LB was she dismissed it. She asked for an example, I gave her one, which was arguably the biggest reason for our fighting, and she dismissed it as 'only one thing'... ugh, just not sure where to go with this.

Thoughts and advice?

Messy,

What's going to save your marriage is the actual deposit of Love Bank units. Persuading her of anything isn't going to save your marriage. Even if it were possible.

So there's not a need to have a conversation about who "owns" love busters or whatever or whether or not she is to blame for her affair.

What you're looking for is how you can make Love Bank deposits and information about Love Bank withdrawals you can avoid. You want to be constantly refining your approach so that you are making bigger and bigger deposits and eliminating withdrawals. Over time, assuming she is not receiving Love Bank deposits from someone else, this will change her feelings toward you and then all of the babble will disappear.

Thanks for the wake up call markos. You're right, sometimes I lose sight of that in my own desire for LB deposits and closure to this situation...

Working on LB deposits.

I guess the other side of this, that I haven't found yet in any of the threads here or on Dr. Harley's site, is what if the A is blown up and ended via exposure, but WW still doesn't want to actively work on the M?

We've been 'stuck' in neutral for almost 8 months, at what point do I say, time to get to work or go to plan B/D? Basically, my love bank is running dry after 8 months and I'm ready to move forward with my life, either with or without her, I just cant take this purgatory position much longer. Am I just being impatient? Or do I take solace in the fact that she hasn't left and is slooooowly coming around (sorta) as this is just part of our long recovery and I just keep up with the permanent plan A?

Thoughts?

A wife not wanting to work on the marriage is pretty much the most common situation I have seen!

The solution is as I described above: you have to take the steps to change her feelings before she will be willing to work.

Don't issue any ultimatums, and don't give her any deadlines. (If you want to privately set your own deadline that's fine. Dr. Harley recommends you give it two years. When the deadline hits you separate.)

You can communicate your needs to her. Tell her what you would like from her, and tell her if anything she is doing hurts or bothers you, and then sit back and see if she makes any adjustment or not. Many women won't make any adjustment until they are in love with their husbands.

If you decide you don't want to do this, that's fine, you can always separate or file for divorce. But don't fight about it with your wife because that will make her less likely to meet your needs. This is why you don't give her a deadline or threaten to leave. If you hold the possibility of divorce out over her and that's what it takes to get her working, she will hate you for it.

If you have trouble motivating yourself to do this and feel like you can't do it and want to give up, you can see your doctor about antidepressants. I had to do that for awhile when Prisca was not motivated to work on our marriage.

Thanks for the guidance Markos. I did read 'when to call it quits part 3' yesterday and that was also helpful.

I'm on AD and they certainly help, it's just the moments of weakness where my taker starts getting louder that I get frustrated.

Still gonna stay strong with plan A. I'll check back in soon, thanks!

Want your thoughts on something...

like most men, SF is my top EN, followed by affection and admiration... well as written above WW is not meeting any of those needs. Is it inappropriate for me to request SF or affection? I don't want to LB.

Thanks.

Messy,

Dr. Harley definitely encourages couples to make lots of thoughtful requests of each other. Make sure that your requests are unmistakable as requests: no consequences if she declines, and worded as "I would like to have ..." and "How would you feel about ... ?"

She might be a little bit annoyed by your requests; if she expresses annoyance consider backing off for a little while before bringing it back up at a later time.

In the meantime, continue trying to establish habits that make the biggest love bank deposits possible.

Also, be sure you understand the points Dr. Harley makes about sexual desire in wives: a woman needs two things in order to feel sexual desire: 1) to feel bonded to her husband, and 2) the prospect of enjoyment in the sexual experience. If she doesn't have both of these, pressing forward is likely to create a sexual aversion.

In some ways you basically have to win your wife all over again.

You might find this article helpful:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com//graphic/mbi8122_raise.html

Thanks Markos, I do think she's just 'not there yet' to put it in her words. I don't think I've won her back yet, we are getting along better, spending plenty of UA time, I'm pouring on plan A...

I read the link you posted, she reverts to option C - just ignoring it, we intentionally decided to abstain for a few months because she wasn't feeling it, and I didn't want to force it (I'm implementing the POJA by myself lol)soI backed off completely for 3 months and wanted to re-approach the topic to see if things have changed, I'd like to open the dialogue to see what we could do to solve the problem. I will certainly make the request simply a request with no consequences.

And have you confirmed NC between her and OM?

I have confirmed as best I can via monitoring phone and email records. VAR hasn't detected anything. GPS locations are all appropriate and in line with her telling me where she is coming/going.

It's possible, but I haven't been able to find any evidence. WW is not very protective of her phone (as during the A) so that's also a sign to me that she has nothing to hide. Additionally, both OM and her have people checking in to make sure contact doesn't happen...

The only thing I'm aware of that could be a trigger or counted maybe as contact is that photos of OM appear on social media that WW would see (thru friends). I'm not sure how to get around this one other than to request that WW delete social media. I don't see that going well.

I would make that a request just like the others. "It bothers me for you to use {social website}." And don't let a fight happen if she declines to address your complaint. But do let her know how you feel.

Good point Markos. I think I've been hesitant to make any requests or complaints because she usually turns them back on me.

I think this is an area where we need to make change, in the past when one of us made a complaint, first it would be harsh and critical, not simply a complaint, then the other would get defensive and a fight would break out without much ever getting resolved.

Perhaps me leading the way and making complaints without criticism will start this change.

Well the request for SF was turned down, she's still not ready yet. I told her I respect that and appreciated that she acknowledged it was an important EN for me. I continued the negotiation with a request to see if she thinks there is anyway we can ease back into SF, via some affection. Not sure where that will go.

This whole experience has been a huge growing opportunity for me, I've never experience anything as painful as the A and then having to continue the feeling of rejection while I win her back, takes some much needed self-discipline on my part, I need to get better at it. But this requesting approach is helpful, gotta stay focused on the end game.

Is social media one of the avenues she used to conduct her affair?

No, she didn't use social media.

Messy, how's it going?

The negotiation for SF turned into a difficult discussion around the relationship. WW continued the fogbabble focusing on my desire for affection and SF as "compulsive and objectifying". Her IC has reaffirmed this by telling her 'people like me' (i.e. those who used to view porn) can't control their impulses. WW completely disagrees with MB and said that SF is not an emotional need... convenient for her because that's the only thing she has left to hold against me, saying that she felt objectified by me. I acknowledged that my taker turned SF into that at times, but reminded her that we had kept having conversations about it not being really fulfilling and what was going on? If I'd only known about MB and the A at the time...

The other frustrating part of this for me was that WW threw all the affection I'd been showing her back in my face to support her claim of impulsive behavior, even though, we had previously agreed that non-intimate affection was ok, and I had been very intentional to keep it non-intimate. She followed it with a 'a need to know that you want me for more than my body' more babble... I replied that I hope she realizes that I haven't been fighting 8 months to save our M for SF.

Anyway, the whole conversation left me angry, and I withdrew. Of course WW doesn't think I have anything to be angry about and confronted me the next morning for being withdrawn. I told her I was angry because it continues to feel like she is so focused on what I did and is painting me as a monster to justify her actions. Its also frustrating that she got angry that the issue turned into the bigger issues about her lack of commitment and action to work on the M, saying that it's not changing. I told her the reason I'm desiring affection and SF is they are my top emotional needs, and I'm not getting anything from her as reassurance the M will be ok, as well as I desire to feel connected to her and that is my key way to feel connected. It HAS to be about the bigger issue. Again her trying to deflect responsibility.

Bottom line, I know the conversation was a LB, but honestly it was a bigger LB for me than her. She flew DJ and dishonesty at me and it left me really angry and withdrawn. I feel like any change I make will never be good enough, and she's focused on the past. Apparently 8 months of changed behavior isn't cutting it. It's so hard to be finally free from the shame and guilt of porn and have her just keep throwing it back in my face, I know it hurt her, but I wish she was supportive.

Thankfully we recovered from the discussion and had a 'normal' weekend. I've channeled the anger into an ability to suppress my desires for affection and SF. Basically I'm really insulted that she thinks the only reason I want to save the M is for SF. I've completely stopped all affection or touching, except for 1 kiss and hug each morning as I leave for work, which she initiates. Its been almost a week, and she hasn't made any comments.

Otherwise I'm able to maintain plan A, just a little more disconnected. I think I was being too needy and pushing her away.

Ugh, this process is hard and unfortunately I'm learning from making mistakes... Hard part now is to not stay withdrawn, I'm tired of acting as if nothing is wrong so she can feel like things are at peace and not make a decision to recommit or reconnect to me and the M.

Forgot to add that WW went through my phone over the weekend while I was outside. I intentionally left my phone available, but it concerns me that she went through it and didn't say anything to me. I don't have anything to hide, in fact my monitoring software tells her all of my activity, BUT I know she read through all of my text messages. I think she's just trying to find dirt to be mad at me for...

Not sure if I should ask her about it, or wait for her to bring it up during an argument like she has in the past lol...

Your angry outburst set any progress you have made back to square one.

Dr. Harley says that no marital problem can be solved until angry outbursts are eliminated. You, sir, are demanding, disrespectful and angry. You have made it near impossible for her to meet your needs.

Can you tell me what Dr. Harley says about anger? Who makes you angry, according to him? How do you eliminate angry outbursts?

And the problem with her going through your phone is .......?

Messy,

Remember that the recovery plan is for you to make enough love bank deposits and avoid withdrawals that she feels in love with you. She won't feel motivated to meet your emotional needs until that happens.

If your needs aren't being met then you need to be looking for ways to refine your love bank depositing approach so that you can meet the goal sooner, and you need to be looking for ways to avoid love bank withdrawals. Relationship discussions are typically a big love bank withdrawal especially if they include demands, disrespectful judgments, and anger like this one did.

Question: are you listening to Dr. Harley's radio show, every day? There's a lot of information and motivation there that you need to stick to the plan and make it work. Steve Harley told me that I needed to "embark on a program of education" about Marriage Builders so that I could get the logic of the plan firmly reinforced in my mind so that I would be able to override my emotional impulses with logic and stick to the plan until it worked.

Why does this concern you? what's wrong with her going through your phone, and why does she need to say anything to you about having done so?

What does Dr Harley say about monitoring a spouse's online activity - do you know?

Why are you even posting about this? What is the problem with her doing this?

Do you have any dirt for her to be mad at you for? If not, why are you bothered about her doing this?

Why do you need to do either? Is there anything wrong with what she did? What, if so?

You have posted today as if we obviously agree with you about recent events, and as if we would chuckle along with you, but your posts are full of DJs and unpleasant insinuations...and "lol" does not excuse this.

Thanks for the feedback, Dr. Harley would say I'm angry because I'm not getting what I want. I'm angry about the A, I'm angry that she hurt me and hasn't provided just compensation or a willingness to work on the M for over 8 months. I'm angry that my plan A efforts are met with doubt, I'm angry that I'm not getting what I want - a better marriage and a wife that loves me and wants to meet my needs.

I understand I need to overcome the AO, I need to avoid trying to convince WW to make a decision. I'm worn out from this, my hurt from the A has switched from grief/neediness to anger, I know that's not an excuse for an AO. I need to finish reading through love busters and work harder to eliminate them.

Thanks AGAIN (I need to continue to learn how to improve and the reminders help!) for the reminder Markos, I haven't been able to listen to the radio show regularly, just a few clips here and there. I'm not sure how I squeeze that into my day, but I'll see if I can find a time window to squeeze this in.

It's not really a problem, its mostly that it's not reciprocal, she would be angry if I went through her phone.

I guess what bothered me by it was being sneaky about it and not acknowledging anything about it. I am letting it go, it just bothered me for some reason, but like I said, I have nothing to hide so I'm not concerned about what she saw or would see.

Nononono: he would not say that at all.

That's a fail. You need to study this properly.

What does Dr Harley say about anger? According to him, who makes you - and that means you, me, or anybody - angry?

It's going to be really important for you to lead by example when it comes to Marriage Builders principles.

So the principle about going through each other's phone is ... ?

There's a good sign you're not listening to the radio show!

I listen while at work and while driving.

What it says in my signature about the show is true. I'm earnestly serious about that.

How badly do you want to succeed at this? Because you are passing up HUNDREDS of HOURS of FREE COUNSELING.

SugarCane, you are correct, I know the recent events were major LB, my anger and frustrations are obvious in my posts. I'm struggling to control my emotions and not allowing them to affect my behavior. Not an excuse, just an area that I need to continue to improve.

Honestly, I hate to complain, cause I know you all have been through this and worse, but it all feels overwhelming to me. I haven't figured out how to not push or pressure for a decision. I can be good for a few weeks, but then my underlying hurt boils over in the form of AO or DJ. I'm getting better, but its not good enough yet.

I do appreciate the honest feedback on this forum, when I posted this morning I was secretly hoping for some validation and affirmation, but I didn't deserve any for the way things went down. I acknowledge that, thanks for the reminder that I need to focus on changing/growing myself. I know I keep searching for the easy fix button, and there isn't one.

I believe its the policy of radical honesty.

We are going to help you with that if we can get you listening to the show. You can't skip class and expect to perform well.


HERE IT IS:
http://marriagebuilders.com/app/

I really want to succeed at this. I am typically unable to listen at work and my commute is only 10 min. I'll will try to fit this in. I can probably get some time in during lunch and other times throughout the day.

I don't know the correct answer, I'm still at the beginning of the LB book. I do believe Dr. Harley's advice to overcoming AO is to 'self-trigger' or short circuit the event when the anger feeling arrives. I need to work on this habit, either walking away or calming myself down. I do believe I have improved in this area, but I'm just calming down from anger to DJ probably. Work in progress... back to the homework.

That is not entirely wrong, but the policy of radical honesty is about what each spouse should actively give to the other. It is about revealing your history and your emotions, thoughts and feelings to your spouse, and revealing your past, present and your future plans; but is not about your spouse snooping through your phone, per se. This is how Dr Harley describes the Policy of Radical Honesty:

The Policy of Radical Honesty

Reveal to your spouse as much
information about yourself as you know;
your thoughts, feelings, habits, likes,
dislikes, personal history, daily activities,
and plans for the future.
The Policy of Radical Honesty

Snooping is when one spouse checks up on the other, independently of what the other is revealing.

Please read this article and answer markos's question again: So the principle of going through each other's phone is...?
Snooping: Is it wrong? Or, is it the right thing to do in marriage?

I don't know what you mean by"self-trigger", or by "short circuit the event", but that's not what Dr Harley says.

You have a right to your anger, Messy. All betrayed spouses are confronted with the most intense of emotions, including anger, resentment, hurt, and sadness. Infidelity leaves scars on its victims.

But if you wish to make it through this having "aced the test" you need to be hyper vigilant of your impulses. Avoid angry outbursts and disrespectful judgments at all costs. They feel good when you release them, but in the final analysis they do not help, and, worse, later you will regret having done them.

Do it right. Follow the plan. Keep improving yourself. Be the better person and you will win. It's mathematical.

I think the principle is that no matter what, we all have a tendency to be unfaithful, coupled with hiding porn she does not have a reason to trust me. She is looking to see if I'm still hiding it, or a possible relationship, or if I've been complaining or keeping secrets from her about our relationship via text messages.

As Markos said, I need to lead by example, I need to be ok with her seeing everything, because afterall there is nothing to hide.

I guess the annoyance came because shes paranoid that I might snoop and is deleting text messages, etc. It's one sided at this point in our M, but that's not reason to be angry.

Ok, I need a lesson here then I got these ideas from re-reading the AO article:
http://marriagebuilders.com//graphic/mbi3401_angry.html

I will read the AO chapter tonight in LB... I'm missing the mark here.

I see what you mean. In that article, he says:

"Most effective anger management training programs focus attention on the creation of short-circuiting habits. Whenever a person begins to feel angry, he or she practices a behavior that has been shown to prevent an outburst. In the beginning, the new behavior is a conscious choice, something that is done regardless of how it feels to do it. Walking away from a frustrating situation is one example of a behavior that can short-circuit an angry outburst. Another is to follow a routine that relaxes your muscles and lowers adrenalin in your system. Eventually, with practice, the behavior that has proven effective in short-circuiting an angry outburst becomes a habit. Whenever the person begins to feel angry, the habit kicks in and angry outbursts are overcome."

So, short-circuiting the event means constantly and routinely practicing new behaviours (habits) that cut off the angry outburst before it happens, such as walking away, and relaxing.

But markos was also asking you: who is the person that makes you angry?

It is DESPERATELY important that you find out, and use, the answer to that question. Without that answer, you will not be able to overcome anger.

I don't think that's what Dr. Harley typically says about angry outbursts - that might be true in an academic sense (although some might debate it), but the important thing is to learn that angry outbursts always make your problem worse.

You can feel however you wish. You dont have a right to outbursts. That is the distinction.

Ok, I see what you mean now. I guess my first reaction is to say WW is making me angry - but only because she isn't giving me what I want. Which means I need to come to terms with the fact that I can't force my WW to provide for me what I want her to provide. Sooo... in effect I'm causing myself to be angry by putting these expectations of SD on my WW. The right answer is my WW can choose to satisfy my needs, but I cant make it happen, so I'm angry because I want something I'm not getting. Is that where Dr. Harley would head?

Any good radio clips on this topic?

Thanks!

I really think that you're not helping, with this sort of advice. When it comes to anger, Dr Harley does not say anything that suggests that you have a right to your feelings. That kind of comment actually goes against the advice that we need to lean to relax in the face of frustrations. Dr Harley's advice to relax is focused on dispelling the feeling of anger, as well as on preventing the behaviour that manifests itself as an outburst.

A man who is having angry outbursts doesn't need to be told he has a right to his anger -- he already feels like he has right, that's why he is having AOs. He doesn't need that validation.

Thank you for this. I do have an instinct to feel angry about what happened, but I have the choice to control my response... easier said than done given the intensity of the emotions.

You're getting there.

Dr. Harley says that the only person that can make you angry is YOU. Your wife may frustrate you by what she does, or doesn't do. But you are the only person that can make yourself angry.

Read: How to Negotiate When You Are An Emotional Person

You must learn to calm down while you are still frustrated before it escalates to anger.

You need to find out what Dr Harley would say; not to try and work out where you think he would head.

You really need to become a scholar of Dr Harley and Marriage Builders, if you are to recover from your pornography use and your wife's affair, and turn your marriage around. You won't be able to come to this forum and simply vent about the latest frustrations in your marriage, and get validation for your feelings; that is not what this forum exists for. We will push you and force you to read and listen to Dr Harley's advice - and you have been here long enough to have done a lot more of this than it seems you have done.

I'm no good with radio clips, but have you installed that app on your phone yet?

The anger he had in this situation is not affair related. He did not just discover her in bed with OM, or find a text to OM, or some other contact. He's angry because she is not giving him what he wants. An initial feeling of anger upon discovering the affair is understandable, and most would feel empathy and give a pass for that. But her affair does not give him a blank check to feel anger over what she does or doesn't do in recovery.

His anger was over her not giving him what he wants. He doesn't have a right to that anger just because she had an affair. He doesn't get to demand what he wants and allow himself to get angry just because she doesn't want to do it. He made a demand, punished her with anger, and shot himself in the foot because now she will be VERY unlikely to give him what he wants any time soon.

In recovery, nobody has a right to anger.

Have you listened to all the radio clips in here? There a lot more clips at the end of the thread as well. Tell us what you think.
Anger Management 101

Thanks for the link, its an area I need to put as a priority to work on. So breaking this down into baby steps...

I need to finish studying LB book, and as part of that work on controlling the emotional response during conversations.

Its obvious to me that just cause I've made significant changes on the deposit side, my withdrawals are still holding me back. Emotional control, I need it.

Very good insight! I wish everyone who came through here realized this as quickly.

Spot on. Thanks for the reality check.

App downloaded, was able to get 30 min in last night.

Tried to make a few small deposits via 1 doz roses last night and some good IC, maybe 30 min worth. We made dinner together, had a nice family dinner and watched TV together.

Did you listen to these radio clips?

Not yet, I'm hoping to have time today.

Had time to listen to the anger management 101, very very enlightening! I never thought of myself as an angry person, but it's clear to me that when it comes to intense emotions I can become very angry, thankfully I'm not violent, but it makes me harden my resolve to be right, justified, or whatever the emotion I'm experiencing...

I've been working on the relaxation techniques inadvertently, but not nearly as intentional as I need to.

I think the key takeaway for me was the root cause of the anger, feeling rejected and disrespected. My personality style takes rejection very hard, based in some insecurities that I'm working on via IC. I need to practice not letting the feeling of rejection get me so emotional. Hence why the A messed me up so much, never felt anything like that before...

More listing to come!

Got more listening time in and have been practicing the relaxation methods. It's definitely working, even though its only been a day, I have had multiple opportunities to put it in to practice, its amazing how much simply being aware of it allows for being in control vs. letting the emotions take control.

Not to stay focused on eliminating AO and making deposits...

Great, Messy. Listen to the show daily, too.

Messy, good job.

It's hard to stand outside of ourselves and see the impact of our emotional reactions. We don't feel the impact of the emotions we project; only those we interact with do.

My exwife and my daughters both have complained that I am intense and type A. I don't have issues with AO's or DJ's, but I have made a conscious decision to be aware of my intense moments when I am around my daughters and to not give them any undue stress. That is not to suggest that I will lower my expectations. I will not compromise high expectations, but I will temper my intensity in normal, daily interaction so as to ensure a home life for my family that is serene.

Self-awareness is a good thing. Or as Socrates put it: the unexamined life is not worth living.

Just a quick update, the weekend was good, we had lots of UA and FC time. I continued to work on the relaxation methods and have been diving into to the root of my anger.

We discussed some of her issues with our past, and while my initial instinct is to dismiss it as her just rewriting history and painting me as a monster due to the A, I was open and realized how much damage I had actually caused. I processed it for a few days and sat with WW to sincerely apologize and acknowledge the damage that was done. I committed to her that I wont let it happen again and that I'm taking EP to ensure I can sustain the change. A little to my surprise she forgave me and acknowledged that I'm different now. However she acknowledged that she's concerned it will never be 'great' due to the history. Of course that's got me worried, but I can't control her feelings on the issue, all I can do is pray and focus on myself.

I'm battling the anger now, I think it's rooted in rejection, coupled with the feeling of it not being fair. It is not fair that she had the A and now I'm the one suffering and she is still waiting to determine if she wants to come back, even after I've demonstrated and implemented a desire to change and make things great again. She's convinced she was unhappy for years and isn't sure things can be repaired.

I know that's just the reality of it and I have to deal with it, but it makes me angry, so I'm working to get past that. Any material from Dr. Harley that can help with the anger??

thanks.

Sounds like some great progress, Messy, but did Dr. Harley suggest you dive into the root of your anger?

Regarding your wife's feelings, let me assure you that when you make enough love bank deposits to bring your account in your wife's love bank up above the romantic love threshold, she will discover that your marriage can be great despite the history. I watched it happen with Prisca! In fact to some extent she may tend to rewrite history in a positive manner.

No, you make yourself angry. The situation may frustrate you, but you choose to be angry over it.

Get a GSR meter, as described in that article I posted to you, and start using it to learn how to remain calm in the face of frustration. Eventually, calmness will be an automatic response rather than anger.

Thanks for the encouragement Markos.

I guess on the anger front, I just want to process through the feelings and move past them, hoping to minimize triggers to resentment, but in reality I don't see that happening until her love bank is restored, because the rejection is constant.

I do think that understanding what emotion (rejection, disrespect, etc.) that causes the anger will allow me to relax faster, if I can rationally explain to myself why I'm feeling that way, then I can make the choice to stay rational. So, I'm just processing the feelings to help understand what it is that I'm not getting that is causing the anger other than lack of a happy M. It also helps me maintain my plan A motivation.

I re-read Dr. Harley's article on resentment, which is why I believe it will only get better once her love bank account has grown. Of course WW is digging through all of the past issues with her IC. I know it's bringing up the feelings of resentment for her, but I also know she had allowed them to put up a wall anyway. I think the only benefit of it, is it's allowing her an opportunity to tell me how she felt, whereas in the past she buried it. Additionally, it's giving me areas to improve upon as well as show her that I'm truly sorry for the behavior versus in the past her interpretation was that I didn't care, because I didn't understand the damage I was causing, which isn't the case. It feels like progess to me, even though I know Dr. Harley doesn't recommend reliving the past issues, I can't control what WW does with her IC. The key now is to see if she can move forward from it now that it's been aired. I know I need to give her time.

Yes you're right, I allow my frustration to become anger.

Thanks for keeping me grounded!

Looking for some advice, some events yesterday have driven me to regroup.

OMW contacted me for the first time since exposure yesterday, concerned that contact may still be happening and she wanted to see how our M was doing. Turns out OM is saying and acting the same way as WW, 'needs more time', completely disconnected, depressed, can't recommit. The thing that has me most bothered is that OM is constantly on his phone, just like my WW. This was their primary method to conduct the A. I have no intel to prove anything, but it does make sense why WW continues to be so disconnected. I'm going to step up my snooping again in an attempt to find concrete evidence.

Also OMW is planning on entering plan B, so that has me concerned...

Am I in for a false recovery D-day? How should I best handle this info?

Do step up your snooping - that's the best way to handle. But I don't think it's OMW's business how your marriage is doing.

If the OMW was asking how his marriage was doing as in trying to share information in order for both of them to try and break up the affair, wouldn't in that case be some of her business? I am not certain on that point but it would seem that if the intent for OMW and Messy to share Intel to try and destroy the affair it would be an okay question to ask each other?

I guess I should have worded it differently. She was asking because she was checking to see if WW was still a viable option. In other words, if we were doing well, she would know OM isn't pursuing WW.

We did share intel, neither of us have any evidence of continued contact.

He could still be pursuing her even if you were doing well, though.

Sharing Intel is not the same as sharing information about the marriage. We have seen BS start an affair due to their lack of boundaries when they are updating about their WS.

Agreed. Neither of us trust the WS, but it was comforting to know that intel on both sides points to continued no contact...

Yes, I could see that threat BrainHurts seeing as to how vulnerable I feel in my current state. Thats why I needed to some clarity because sharing intel with the intent to destroy the affair I think is good. Sharing feelings etc. is what likely got the way wards in the affair to begin with and adding a second affair is a recipe for disaster.

We do all understand that affairs are caused by poor boundaries, not by bad marriages, right?

Need help. VAR confirms A is active and is now physical. Plan B? New exposure? Please advise. I'm devastated

I am so sorry, Messy. Yes, you need to expose.

Messy, I am very sorry to hear this. You need to expose this new information.

Do you have information on the OM as well so you can expose to his side?

How do I do it?

Yes. I got everything. I'm also ready for plan B. I don't think I can do Plan a anymore

You have been at this long enough, Messy. You have tried very hard to win her. If you are ready for Plan B, then go to Plan B. No one will blame you at all.

You need to expose her the same way you exposed the first time around. Contact all family, friends, church leaders, etc. Expose to your children. Expose to his side. Make sure his wife knows what you have discovered. Tell them that you have discovered that your wife never ended her affair. Ask them for their support.

Do you have a Plan B letter written?

No letter yet. Going to see a lawyer first, then will expose and deliver letter

I'm sorry Messy. Not surprised, her actions were textbook wayward. But I always want to be wrong about that

I agree with Prisca. False recoveries and second Ddays are even more taxing than the first, and if you have had enough nobody will blame you.

Make sure you do a very thorough exposure before you go into Plan B.

Do you have an IM lined up?

Messy .... how's it going?

Thanks everyone, I'm forced to wait a few days due to a TON of family commitments this weekend. So I've had to fake it, which is just making things harder. Because of the kids I don't think I can jump to a plan B just yet, I need a few days to get my ducks in a row. But I'm going to expose and see what happens.

What ducks are you getting in a row?
When are you planning to expose?

I am also wondering the same.

I need to make sure I'm covered legally if I leave the house, I don't think I can just kick WW out, I can ask her to leave I guess. I need a solid plan to avoid contact and yet have my time with the kids. A schedule will be difficult to manage but I can figure it out. Any advice on how plan B can work when WW is a SAM?

I see a lawyer on Monday, to have a separation agreement prepared.

Exposure is tomorrow.

I have a few IM ready.

Well, exposure was surprisingly effective. She has ended things with OM but isn't sure our M can be saved. Gotta give her some time to let the fog dissipate. It's been a humiliating day for her, so I'm giving her some space by not over communicating or trying to much of plan a, gonna just let the events of today process. It's clear OM was manipulating her the whole time and thinks everything I say is a lie. I've been able to muster some plan A thru the support I have gotten during exposure.

At this point I've basically told her I'm willing to continue to fight for the M but I'm going to need her to decide and engage. I will clearly communicate a need for EPs and working on MB. My guard is up right now, and I need to not let the hope of restoration distort my decision making.

Any advice as I restart from zero and plan A again?

Some questions for you all this morning, thankfully I was able to actually sleep last night after exposure.

WW is showing 2 personalities, at times I see the W I knew before the A, but mostly I get the angry, fogbabble version. How can I best protect myself from the babble? Right now I'm just not engaging, and it's frustrating for her. Should I just continue that path? Knowing I can't rationalize with her yet?

Like I said early the exposure has brought an upwelling of support from friends and family, especially my in-laws, giving me the strength to start a new plan A. Should I go easy on it until she's had a few days to let the fog and shock of exposure dissipate?

What's the best way to keep myself guarded. My insecurity of losing W and avoidance of her anger usually drives me to concede to her demands out of fear of losing her. At this point I'm struggling to find that middle ground, where I proceed cautiously. I think this is a huge growing area for me to just be confident in what I want, and not concede out of fear of losing my family. I just don't want to fall back into the trap. Thoughts?

Also, now that new info has been revealed, I want to know more details about the A, how much should I ask?

Finally, thanks for all your guidance and support, I know I've been slow to adopt and understand MB principles, but you all have made this second D-day much more bearable, knowing that I have a plan and steps to take, but more importantly people who understand and provide support.

I think you're being prematurely optimistic about this. if I understand you correctly you still live near OM. We've advised you to move, but you haven't done so.

What guarantees do you have that contact between them is no longer possible? Has she given you access to her communications?

How do you know that she ended things with OM? Did she tell you this? Have you seen any evidence of it? Has she written a no contact letter, by hand, that you posted?

You said this in your very first post; that exposure was complete, you hadn't moved, and your wife did not want to commit to the marriage. However, as we warned you and as it later turned out, the affair was not over and was in fact sexually active.

You seem to be in the exact same place that you were in January, saying the same thing and painting the same picture. I think, then and now, you move far too quickly to conclude that the affair is over. As long as your wife can contact OM, and as long as you live near him, it isn't over.

SugarCane - you're right, I should have said 'she says' she ended things with OM, I'm not buying it yet. In order for me to be willing to move forward we need to execute the EPs. Including the NC letter, and I'm actively job hunting in other areas. Prayers that I can land something before next school year is appreciated.

Yes, back at ground zero. My conditions for moving forward are a commitment to the marriage and working the MB program and a willingness to execute the EPs.

At this point if she can't meet the above conditions I am prepping for plan B/D.

Trying to stay grounded and not be overly optimistic with the results of exposure.

Have you asked her to write the NC letter?

We are talking tonight. We haven't had any relationship talks since exposure. Other than her telling me she's done with OM.

Is it ok to give her the above conditions for coming back? Is that a SD?

You should not demand her commitment to the marriage. We've talked about this before. Have you read Surviving an Affair yet - the story of Jon and Sue?

The conditions for recovery are set out in that book, and also constantly circulated on this forum. They have probably been posted to you on this thread. If you want to follow the path with the best chance of making recovery a success, you need to follow Dr Harley's advice, given in that book, to a tee. Don't make up your own conditions, because you could easily cause the marriage to fail when, with patience, it could have succeeded. Your wife's commitment to the marriage might only come when she sees the marriage making her happy.

Also, don't try to push for what you want when you haven't even completed step one. Step one is for there to be total non contact with OM, and this necessitates your moving. You cannot complete step one while you live close to OM, and in the direct vicinity here the affair took place. You brush discussion of moving aside when we bring it up, but your marriage cannot succeed without it.

Ok. Thanks for keeping me grounded. I am actively pursuing a new job and we are also considering moving to the opposite side of town at least that would put 20 or 30 miles of distance

Messy, I think you need to move away from the OM sooner, rather than later. Several months for a job hunt is too long.

Having relationship talks is usually not a good idea, btw.

Let her know that her infidelity is the most painful thing that ever happened to you and that you need to make it impossible for either of you to ever see or hear from the OM again if you are going to recover. Let her know you are going to need to move. Tell us how she reacts to that.

Messy, are you still listening to the daily radio show?

You haven't addressed the question I asked. I see that your counsellor gave you a copy of Surviving an Affair, but did you read it all the way through? If so, what do you understand from the Jon and Sue story, about a wife who reluctantly comes back to the marriage?

You were discussing moving 25-30 miles away when you first came here, in January. You seem to have made no progress on this. You need to attack the issue of moving with much more urgency.

However, being on the other side of the same town might not be enough to make it impossible for your wife to meet OM. Obviously I don't know your town, but you need to do this properly, and not by half measures. If you get this wrong and the affair continues or resumes, your marriage will not survive.

Sorry for radio silence. The last 72 hours have been a whirlwind of activity and emotion. Let me do the best to summarize.

Bottom line, exposure worked. WW & OM were confronted by family, clergy and friends. All saying the same consistent message, the A was a fantasy and had no hope of survival, and that the relationship MUST come to an end. Per documented agreement with WW I stayed out of the house the night of exposure.

The timing of everything was truly God's provision. Through our IC's WW and I identified my previous behavior in our physical relationship as emotional abuse. This identification came on the same day the VAR confirmed the active A. I firmly believe I needed to see the extent of my sin and the damage I had caused in order for us to have any hope of healing. So our path before us has 2 massive issues to address.

Onto our talk. WW's IC recommended separation to allow her space to figure out what she wants. At the beginning of the conversation I was in agreement, basically I had already planned to implement plan B so we aligned. It didn't carry the shock of a plan b letter, but I didn't know how to address it because there are a TON of logistical details that have to be figured out.

The conversation then went onto the A. Here's where God started to show how He makes good from bad. WW had been exhausted from hiding the A, she hated being forced to lie to friends and family, and had been really putting the pressure on OM to make a move forward - either stay with his wife or they were going to leave the spouses and be together. Exposure popped her secrecy bubble, and she was completely humbled and basically told me EVERY detail of the affair.

God blessed me with complete emotional control during the conversation by reassuring me in Him, and allowing me to be secure regardless of the outcome of our M. As WW began telling the details of the affair I became angry FOR her, it finally all made sense, all the things I'd been seeing and feeling the last 10 months were real, OM was completely lying and manipulating WW. Because of the ability to control my emotions in the moment and not have an AO, and in fact connect with WW, 2 things happened. In her words, her anger bubble for me popped and she began to hate OM. Essentially the A was already starting to die a natural death as the fun fantasy needed to become reality for her, but it was never going to. She told me her and OM had started to have arguments about it. Also, her eyes were opened completely to the lies and manipulation from OM. Due to more confirmation that OM had lied to her based on a angry phone call from OMW, WW had an emotional breakdown.

At that point we had previously agreed to sleep in separate beds and I went to bed to give her time to process the grief and emotion. 2 hours go by and WW comes up to get something, and I can see she's a mess, I offered to have her sleep in the bed, at which point she completely comes apart and falls into me expressing her extreme grief and sorrow.

At that point we basically talked openly and honestly through the entire night, until the kids woke. It was the first time in our relationship that we had complete honesty. It's clear to me now that our focus for recovery needs to be the policy of radical honesty. As that has been the biggest hidden love buster for both of us.

At this point we are working through the list of EPs. I have all I need to know about the A, she's committed to no contact, I'm going to request the NC letter (they met to end things after the exposure got out), We are working on EPs particularly the technology. The other thing as you have all emphasized so much is moving. I need to get on that very actively.

So here's where I need help/advice. WW is still contemplating a separation to ensure she really wants to work to save the marriage. According to SAA this isn't the plan, I'd prefer to spend as much time together as possible per the EPs. However, if WW wants the separation I'm not sure what I should do?

Finally, I want to tell WW about these forums and this thread, I know reading through it will be extremely hard for her based on my up and down emotional rollercoaster, and the fact that my anger and frustration with her was poured out in my posts. Is this good? I think per the PORH it should be done, but I'm new to this.

Please advise.

To answer the previous questions. No I haven't finished SAA, I stopped at the recovery phase. I will finish it today. Also, haven't had much time to listen to the radio broadcast the last few days.

I can't believe you've just written this, after all the time you've spent getting advice from us. This whole account has so many things wrong with it that I don't know where to start.

Just STOP doing anything. Do not do anything at all for the rest of today, and ESPECIALLY do not tell your wife about this forum. Her affair is not finished and she will simply learn from our advice that you are spying on her, and that she needs to hide her affair better.

Separation: NO!!!! She wants this to see if she can pursue the affair.

Counselling: NO!!! Stop talking to this counsellor. Your counsellor is encouraging you to give her space, when all that will do is give her the means to continue the affair. Your counsellor gave you Surviving an Affair, but it doesn't seem as if she's read it herself. Certainly she is not getting you to follow the checklist from it. Certainly she doesn't seem to know the first thing about Dr Harley's approach.

They met after exposure: This will happen again. You've been duped.

She cried and had a breakdown because he lied: She had a breakdown because he hasn't stood by her like she wanted him to - but she will go back to him. She can't believe that he didn't love her and there is no future for them.

How do I know this?

She is behaving identically to the married woman in my husband's affair, and you are behaving identically to her husband. I'd started reading this forum by the time I exposed to him, and no matter how much I warned him about her lying to him about wanting nothing more to do with my husband, he chose to believe her "breakdown" and her "come-to-Jesus remorse", and her now-hatred of my husband for lying to her. Upon exposure she wept, she screamed, and she flung herself on her husband's mercy.

About 4 years after the events of that year, it emerged that she had never stopped contacting my husband, who, of course, loved hearing from her. (It wasn't easy for them to meet in person, as we live in London and she lives in Belgium.) In fact, I discovered their contact at the point where they were getting ready to meet again, after 5 years. All contact between ceased upon my discovery, because my husband was retiring and she could no longer contact him at work.

About 5 years after that exposure, she left her husband for a different, divorced man. She had been seeing other men throughout their "reconciliation" and had been simply waiting for the right one who would take her out of the marriage.

Many times, during exposure, I told her husband that she was obsessed, that she was desperately unhappy in her marriage, and that she would continue to contact my husband, but he didn't believe me because of her "breakdown". Yet, for me, the signs were there, in her doctored confession, and her fury at my husband.

The signs are there for you, in your wife's manipulation of the counsellor to get you to agree to separation, and her desire for separation itself. She wants this because she doesn't believe her married man does not want her, and she knows she can entice him back to bed. She believes she can entice him to leave his wife. In her head, they shared too much for this not to be true.

Believe this garbage at your peril. You are very gullible, I'm sorry to say.

MESSY, DO NOT TELL YOUR WIFE ABOUT THIS FORUM RIGHT NOW.

Messy, the big problem I see is you don't know the Marriage Builders plan.

The plan actually does work when followed, but you are doing all sorts of other stuff, so I am worried this is not going to end well for you.

I am catching up, but the reason she wants the "separation" is so she can pursue her affair without your interference.

One of my greatest concerns with your situation is that you don't have good instincts about what is going on around you. We can read your situation and comprehend there is much going on behind the scenes to which you are not privy. People pointed this out from the beginning of your thread. Your IC has no earthly idea what is going on either.

Do you think it is smart to bring your wife here when we tell you to spy on her? When she is in an active affair and wants to separate from you? How in the world do you imagine that is a good idea?

That is not the PORH. It does not apply to resources that are designed to protect you when there has been adultery or abuse.

I'm following you guys, I see my blind optimism. It's rooted in wanting to pain to go away, so I cling to any optimism I can.

I should add that it is her IC that is advising separation, to create space to think. Also, WW didnt like the counselor who gave us SAA so we don't see that one anymore.

At this point, I'm going to tell her I don't want a separation, and work the list of EPs from SAA.

What else should I do?

When I talk to an abuser, I tell them not to be dramatic and poetic when they talk about their abuse, if they want to fix the issue and be sensitive to their victim.

If you are learning Marriage Builders, you know that any time you demand your wife do something she is not enthusiastic about, that is abusive. There shouldn't need to be some big dramatic breakthrough revelation about it - you are trying to win your wife over to this program, so you would never insist she do something she is unenthusiastic about, right? You're not broken and don't need counseling; you just simply knock it off.

Make time. You don't have time to not sit in class and learn the program, if you want to survive this.

Don't separate. And sleep in your own bed. She can sleep somewhere else if she wants.

Fire the counselor who suggested "space."

Stop making agreements with your wife. Get moved.

How very ironic that, after we warned you against your wife seeing an individual counsellor, you wrote, this, in February:

Your wife came home happy from meeting that counsellor, and continued to be happy, because the counsellor validated the thinking that justified her affair. The counsellor, told her that, having felt forced to get married at 17, your wife had never done anything for herself, and now it was "me time". That she had lived her life so far doing what was dutiful, and that now it was time to do what she really wanted to do. The counsellor validated your wife's feelings of "mid-life crisis", and that explanation is almost always a justification for behaving badly and hurting people that are close.

And in all that time she was seeing the counsellor and feeling happier, this wasn't because she was growing closer to you, but because she was continuing the affair, and feeling justified. The affair was "me time".

The counsellor did what counsellors do. We did warn you.

This will have to happen before you can recover.

I think that "space" is a cute and trendy buzzword we see from ineffective counselors, but it is nonsensical. No one needs a "space" to be able to think. If that is truly the case, she can go in the bathroom and shut the door or sit out in the garage.

Rather, we happen to know that this request for "space" always applies to waywards who want the freedom to carry on their affair.

That's what I do when I need "space to think." A thirty minute shower does wonders for the mind. The thought of having to tear up my family in order to "have space to think" is absurd; only waywards think and act that way, and it destroys lives.

My activity of choice is a walk through the park. Clear thinking, the uplift provided by a beautiful and ever-changing landscape, vitamin D for the skin, and exercise, all achieved in less than an hour. And so much more fun than breaking up the family!

After feeling pressured into marrying you, pregnant at 17, why did she go on to have three more kids?

So he was tom-catting around on his wife while she was pregnant, and even the birth of the baby didn't stop him.

I'm surprised you ever thought it would.

I hope you can see what I'm trying to get you to see; that no external considerations, such as his wife, his PREGNANT wife, or his newborn baby, and no demeanour of hers, such as enthusiasm for family life and a newfound talkativeness, or her tears and rage, anger and self-disgust, and/or a come-to-Jesus breakdown, should be read by you as evidence of anything. In the past, they did not mean that the affair had ended, and they will not necessarily mean that today or tomorrow.

The affair only stands a chance of ending when you move away, and non-contact is possible. If contact is easy, contact will happen, breakdown or no breakdown.

Please save this excellent post because it is the KEY to saving your marriage if that is possible. The fact that you thought the pregnancy of the OM's wife would ever prevent anything [and these other things] supports my point that you don't have good instincts about this and don't quite understand the risk. We can help you, but you have to start taking this more seriously.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2002600#Post2002600

Thanks so much for the support today.

Yes, I am on board now, I wanted to believe it wasn't happening. That is making me self analyze so much to wonder why I would avoid obvious signs of continued abuse, and yet continue to believe it wasn't happening... I also don't want to allow any feeling of progress to get my guard down.

Ok, the solution for now is a trip to the mall, WW wanted that space to think today so she went to the mall.

How is the best way to approach implementing EPs? I've just made simple requests so far. Such as, I would like you to consider...

That is a great way to hook up with her boyfriend! Might be better to make her "space" in places where she can't hook up? This is some pretty brazen enabling your part. Getting "space" is code word for HOOKING UP WIHT MY BOYFRIEND.

I am not trying to beat you up, but you have to stop being an enabler and start calling BS when it is OBVIOUS she is going to meet her BF. it's time to wake up.


Show her the damn checklist and start making plans.

You tell us you are on board now and then proceed to tell us she has just gone to the mall to "get space."


No, you are not on board. You have re-boarded the ENABLING TRAIN.

Understood. I need to not enable out of fear of losing her, that has been the reason for a lot of my behavior.

You have lost her already, and that is the issue. More enabling will not get her back.

So here she is headed to the mall to meet up with her boyfriend. What are you going to do about that?

1. Great point.

2. She has one of the kids with her, I'll be able to know if they met OM.

Will that kid be able to report if she spends time on the phone? She'll be talking to him.

You're right. Until EPs are in place I will assume the affair is happening.

You say "I love you dearly and want to stay married to you, but we can't stay married unless we do this."

How old are your kids and how would you know? Is there a play area for the kids at this mall?

Have you put spyware on all her devices to confirm NC and a VAR in her vehicle? Do you have any spyware to confirm she went to the mall and didn't meet up or talk to OM?

I can only confirm she went to mall. I will discuss EPs with her tonight. I told her no separation

How did you confirm this? Did you follow her?

She voluntarily turned on her phone gps. Obviously she knew it was on so that doesn't really mean much to me. It was a good step that she did, but doesn't prevent contact

So you didn't follow her to the mall?

Have you contacted the OMBW back so she can up her snooping on her side?

Messy, are you still in touch with the OMW to compare notes?

A couple of things come to mind. First off, she can meet the OM at the mall. If I were her, I would drop the kids at the play area and step out to see or call the OM. Another thing she can do is leave the phone in her car at the mall and get in the car with the OM and leave. OR drop the phone off at the mall [under a trash can, or any other place] and go elsewhere.

The OM will always be an issue living as close as you do. Your wife and the OM are very skilled in hiding their affair from you and the OMW.

So I have some other questions with regards to details. How much is too much to know? I want to ask about the SF, but I don't know if there's any benefit. I just have been wondering. Right now i see one of my biggest hurdles going forward is comparison, in a ton of areas. Can you provide some insight here? I don't want to ask too much for fear of making it harder to move past. Or I sit better to not let my mind wander? Or should I just work on not thinking about it, but I also want to stop any questions after today so I can close that chapter.

My understanding is that OM is at his dad's without his phone. OMW took the phone and has changed the number. No contact with OMW since Monday

What is the question?

You need your questions answered about dates/times/places/activities and this should be done asap so you can move onto next steps, but I am curious about the nature of your questions.

So he can contact her many other ways. Did he move out?

All I know is general frequency and mostly it occurred in my house. Which is an unbearable thought. I want to know activities. Apparently it was fairly regular for the last 5 mos

I believe OMW is making him stay at his dads.

Yes, I'm going to discuss tech EPs tonight to prevent contact

i would want to know where in the house this took place. Wow, wow, about doing it in your house. What precautions have you put in place to prevent this from ever happening again in your house? Did you not suspect she was having the OM in your home?

What is your plan about that house?

Have the kids been exposed to the OM? Have you asked them?

Does she know he was coming to your home?

I know where it mostly happened. And asked about a few specific places to make sure it didn't happen. Is it healthy to ask about the activities? I'm afraid ill never get it out of my head. But I guess I'm already assuming the worst.

Only the youngest at first, but then WW heard me asking her who she saw that day so that ended it.

Does this mean that it was never an EA, as you thought - that it was sexual from the beginning? How long has the affair been overall?

Does it also mean that it never stopped, all the time you were posting on this board about how positive she seemed, and how she had ended it with him?

Where were the kids when they were having sex in your house? And how did he manage to get away from his job, or wherever he was supposed to be?

My suggestion would be to not ask that for the very reasons you gave. You know it happened, so getting details is going to make it harder to scrub out of your mind. As long as you have the basic details, that should be sufficient.


How old are the kids? If they are over 4, I would sit the kids down alone and ask them what they have seen. I am assuming you told them all about the affair? They should be coached to tell you if they ever see this rat.

I don't care if your wife heard you ask your child who she saw. I would be more direct, ask the child "have you seen this man?" That rat is the enemy of your children, they have every right to know he is a bad man.

You mentioned that you found out with the VAR that it had become sexual. What, exactly, did the VAR tell you?

How did you find out these other details - about it taking place in your home, for example?

How do you know that sex took place in some parts of the home and not others (I presume, by this, that you believe that it did not happen in your bed)? Did she tell you these details, or did you find out some other way?

Ok lots of questions. I'll try to cover them all.

SC - at the original exposure the most they had done was kiss. It turned full PA in December. It never actually ended, they lied to everyone. POSOM lost his job, so he was free to conduct the A while OMW and I worked to support the 2 of them. It makes me furious.

Kids were at school or asleep

They discussed sex on the VAR. ugh, some of What WW said is unbearable.

WW told me the locations and claims not in my bed

Have you told your kids?

What happened on this recent D Day? What did you say to your wife? How did she respond?

Did you know that she was planning to meet OM after exposure? Did you try to stop this, if so?

What did they talk about at this meeting? Did your wife explain why it was necessary for them to meet at all?

Did OM dump your wife, or does she claim to have dumped him? And - do you know why, since his marriage has apparently broken down, one of them appears to have dumped the other? Why not just get together- did she tell you?

Did you expose this new information (that the affair was sexual, and that it had never stopped) to OMW, straight away? What was her response?

Under what circumstances was a sleeping child present in the home when this was taking place? Was it at night - and if so, where were you - or do you have a pre-schooler who was asleep during the day?

Also, how old are your kids and have they been told about the affair?

I was always at work, it was with our preschooler at home

I need to tell our oldest. I haven't had the courage to tell her yet...

How old is this child? And how old is the youngest? There are 2 children?

Yes at new dday everything was exposed. WW expressed that it was mostly led by OMbut it was mutual to end things. I had no idea they met, WW and OM got nervous as I was exposing and met once things finally broke out.

Basically OM chose his reputation and family over WW. OM father basically set OM straight, he was a victim of infidelity. And WW father also pointed out to WW how much she was used.

Oldest is 12. Youngest is 3, 4 kids total

What are their ages?

Read this and listen to the radio clips.
Exposing to Children

Messy,

I'm very surprised that, given the length of your W's affair, the question of including your kids in your exposures has not come up, or that you haven't been grilled harder on this. Your 12-yr old dau. must certainly be wondering what's going on. I'm assuming that your middle kids are ages 4 - 11 (between age 3 and age 12). You've hardly mentioned your kids at all, and the effect of your W's affair on them. It has to be affection them. I realize this is 'scary' for you, but as their father you need to take the reins and expose to them.

It seems you rely almost entirely on what your W expresses or admits to you, and so far seems she's mislead you or completely stonewalling. The supposed 'epiphany' she had the other night is an example. If I were in your situation I would require her to submit to a polygraph, with you submitting the questions. I also say this because it's pretty much a brazen disreguard of you and the safety of your kids for her to allow her OM into your own home. E.g., do you really know how many times this happened, were ANY of your kids there, and if so did they see the OM, what was said?, and etc.? Have you installed VAR's or other surveillance equip. in various rooms of your home?

It seems you're behind the curve in monitoring no contact. You seem genuinely surprised that this affair has been on-going under your nose and that the most recent contact surprised you. What steps are you taking to ratchet up your surveillance?. You also need to dedicate yourself in getting much more up-to-speed in reading and understanding MB. Reading just part of SAA in your situation seems an indicator that you're not fully into this. Also you need to disclose to the members here more factual info about your situation so they can offer appropriate advice so you and they are not spinning your wheels. E.g., None here know the ages of your kids if of you have discussed your W's affair with them.

You have a lot of work to do and I wish you prayers and good luck.

Tom

Kids are 3, 5, 7, 12.

I don't know how many times it happened, but found out last night it happened while they were all here and in my own bed. Ugh, I'm not sure how to get past that one.

House watching will increase for sure. We will definitely need to move.

I'm going to get up to speed on telling the kids today. That part terrifies me.

I would tell the 3 oldest. They are old enough to understand. But you can't tell them why she is there and you can't forewarn her. Can you manage this? What have they seen? What do you know?

How did you find out this latest bit of news? And what makes you think she won't take the kids with her to the mall to see her BF?

What does this mean? How are you watching the house?

Under what circumstances were they able to have sex in your house while kids that age were around? What were the kids doing?

I think I can manage it, as far as I know they haven't seen or know anything.

WW confessed more to me last night. I don't know that she won't take kids to see him.

Vars for now, will get video today.

Why do you believe this?

Are you on ADs while you go through this?

I don't know that they haven't seen anything, I hope if there was anything that comes out when they find out.

OM came over after kids went to bed. Unfortunately it happened while I was away for work (I know, ZERO nights apart) I wasn't taking this seriously enough.

Yes, I'm on AD's they are helping me hold it together.

I contacted a Realtor yesterday to get the selling process started.

Have you contacted the OMBW to let her know what you now know?

Did you read this?

Yes, OMBW knows. She knew first about the details (OM confessed) and waited for WW to tell me. Which I'm glad, cause it was the most excruciating pain.

I'm reading/listening to telling the children now

So OMBW told you that it was a PA from the beginning?

Ok, I'm going to tell kids tonight. A few questions.

1. In the radio clip Dr. Harley says do it alone, but that was when the wayward was in denial or used for exposure. At this point WW has confessed to everything and has 'committed' to keep an end to the A. My instincts tell me that we should expose together, with me doing the talking. If it was pre-confession and exposure I would do it alone, but I think at this point it would more beneficial towards recovery if we did it together. Thoughts?

2. Here's what I'm planning to say, please critique:

"DD, I'm going to tell you something that's very hard for me to say, but I promise to walk alongside you as we go through this. Mommy had an affair with OM and was prepared to leave me for OM. Does this help you understand why we left church and the tension you've seen in our home? *Answers*
I want to tell you what this looks like for me, this has been extremely painful and very difficult for me, but I feel God has given me the strength to love your mom, even through this hard stuff, just like Jesus loves us. I'm committed to staying married to your mom. Its going to be hard, we are going to have to go through healing, you need to know that I have my own issues that have hurt your mother that she has had to forgive me for too.
What questions do you have?"

No, sorry, I was the one to catch them, she just got the details filled in from OM before I did from WW. WW has been confessing the painstaking details to me.

Tell the kids alone, and do it days ago.

And tell all your kids except for the 3yo.

No, Dr Harley always recommends the BS tells the kids. It is not beneficial to your marriage for her to be there, it would be a disaster. First off, she is unlikely to go along and will spin the story. Then your kids will never get the truth. Secondly, your kids have to be encouraged to tell you what they know. They have likely been coached to not tell you. Just tell them and then tell her afterwards.


This seems to be addressed to one child. You should tell them all together and should ask them what they know about their mothers affair. Also encourage them to call you immediately if they see their mother contacting this rat again.

I would also leave out the part about you needing forgiveness. Don't muddy the waters with unrelated issues. The point here is to inform them of her affair.

Don't say this to your kids:


Jesus doesn't tell people they have to stay with their spouse through infidelity. Don't give your kids that misimpression. It causes all kinds of untold misery in the world.

Tell your children that affairs are wrong because they are the most painful thing one human being can do to another.

I would drop all the poetic dramatic religious comments. Don't try to make this look beautiful. Recovery hasn't happened yet. There is no beauty now, and you don't know if there is going to be any beauty later. There might be. We'll see. But it isn't there now.

Yes, I was planning to tell DD12 separately, because it will be different for her, then tell the younger ones right after.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but I seriously struggle to not tell them with WW. She has committed to ending the A and wants to work on the M. I think it would be a major LB to do this alone. At this point, I view the exposure to the kids more for their sake than the sake of keeping the A dead (sure that will certainly help), but they have been affected by the tension and I think they need to see WW and I unified on this.

Ugh, you've all pointed out that my instincts with regards to the A were awful, but I'm struggling to not trust my instincts on this one. This is scary...

You need to ask the kids if they've ever seen this man and if you have your WW there they might not feel like they can speak freely in her presence. You ignored all our advice that the affair was still active please don't make the same mistake with following our advice from here on out.

Ok, I understand. Our kids are very familiar with OM, so they will be able to tell me if they saw him.

Ok good you're doing the right thing.

Did you talk to her last night about EPs? Is she writing the NC letter?

I asked her to read them last night and said that we will sit down today and make a plan to implement them. That's going to happen soon. Until that happens, I'm assuming the A is still active.

Last night we spent most of the time comparing notes about OM's lies and finishing up my questions on details. After that I had to take a break because I was sobbing. I didn't have the energy to dig into EPs.

Did you get spyware put on her devices (without her knowing) so you can monitor if the affair is really over?

You are making this much more difficult than is neccessary and will invite needless conflict if you invite your wife. Exposure is always somewhat of a lovebuster but the benefit of exposure is so therapeutic to the damaged marriage that is outweighs the LB. Exposure should never be done with the WW in tow.

Don't tell your wife beforehand, for the reasons I gave. All you will do is cause a fight and that will affect getting the appropriate information to your kids.

Not yet, going to put Mspy on the phone today. Which is why I'm assuming it's still happening...

Ok, I need to sign off for a while. I will check back in tonight. Thanks for all your help.

How do you think picking a fight with her by asking her to expose herself to her kids will help your marriage? And how will that ensure your kids the straight story? Your fogged out wife is a) unlikely to tell them the full unvarnished truth and b) unlikely to agree in the first place. It is better to just do it and tell her later.

It sounds like your main goal in this speech is to assure your children everything is all right. But everything is not all right.

I would get my children alone and tell them "Your mother is dating another man. This is the most painful thing that has ever happened to me. We can't stay married unless her relationship with the other man ends forever, because it hurts me too much."

I did it. I feel awful. Kids are upset. WW left.

How is this the right thing to do???

Of course the kids are upset. Suppose you told them you had four weeks to live? Do you think they would have danced for joy? But imagine how they would have felt had you NOT told them you had a terminal illness leaving them to go about their lives not knowing you were about to die? The truth can be painful but it is never wrong.

My XH saw his father tomcatting around during his entire childhood. His mother pretended everything was ok so he grew up thinking that this was normal behaviour in a marriage. The result was that he cheated on me for almost our entire marriage.

The only way to break the chain of behaviour being passed down to your children is to tell them, calmly and factually and to say that it is wrong.

When I discovered the adultery and told my children what he was up to, they cried with relief because the tension in the family finally made sense. Children always know something is wrong. Often they know (as my XH did) exactly what it is that is wrong.

She's taking the kids to her parents for the night. I'm losing it.

No! If she wants to leave, she can. But she can't take the kids.

Tell her she doesn't get to take the kids.

too late. She took them and wont bring them back

I feel like this was a huge mistake.

She is mad because they know the truth. She can't keep pretending around them.

Do you have your written disagreement to her removing the children from the home ( text or email)? Get the VAR and keep it on you. Read the Document thread.

Question: do you think it's a mistake because the kids are upset?

Just calm down! You did the right thing. The kids already knew, didn't they?

You are the one who refuses to lie to children. Don't let her anger convince you telling the truth is wrong.

Dr. Harley on telling the children:

here



here

here

Believe me, telling them was no mistake. Lying to them was a mistake. You have now corrected that mistake by telling them the truth. Are they upset? Of course. But kids can deal with the truth, they can't deal with lies.

Also, have you started listening to the show so you can start learning why the Marriage Builders program works?

Contact her and let her know you want the kids back home and don't agree with them being gone. Call and text.

Messy, your wife is an addict. You need to be the stable ones for your kids right now. Calm down and start by telling her you need her to bring them back.

I've tried to get her to come back. Shes convinced I'm psychotic for telling them.

I feel like the younger ones didnt need to know, the oldest was relieved, cause she knew things were wrong but had no idea why.

I know telling them was the right thing to do. It just appears that WW is now done.

She was also pushing back on EPs...

Yes, I've been listening to the show, that's why I followed thru with it.

"I'm sorry your affair is embarrassing you but I won't lie to my children. I do not agree to you leaving the home with our children. You need to return them to their home immediately."

It's been a couple days, Messy; keep calm. Do not compromise on EPs or the return oof the children.

trying...

Feelings are not truth. Any child over age 4 needs to know. To lie to them about the source of tension in your home only causes confusion. If you don't tell them, they will find out on their own or they will be told lies by your wife.

No, you will be DONE if she doesn't get on board with the EP's. Do you want your kids raised in a home where their mother brings in men and shags them in their home? That is what you are dealing with here. Does that sound like a good environment for children?

It is up to you to take charge of this situation and start protecting your children.

That starts by a) telling your children the truth, b) holding your wife accountable to EP's, c) protecting your home from your wife's destructive, dangerous behavior.

She will come back home when she gets done with her childish fit.

I know, I wasnt going to compromise on the EPs either and I know that was going to be a deal breaker for her. So I decided I can't live in a relationship where she isnt willing to do whatever it takes to fix the M. Telling the kids might have been the catalyst to get her to where she knew she already was.

She now wants nothing to do with me.

She wants nothing to do with you right now because she is angry you told your child.

Yes. I'll give it time.

I think I just need to go lay down for a while. I'll check in later. Thanks for the support.

I agree with MelodyLane 1000%!

Messy - if you hadn't told them, rest assured that WW would have filled their heads with lies, it's what waywards do. When I exposed my WW, she got to the kids before I had a chance to talk to them, and she told them half-truths and lies. Only one of my kids, DD1, knew immediately that WW wasn't telling the truth and was minimizing everything. DS came to believe me when I talked to him the day after. But I think my DD2 still is unsure if I'm telling the truth, and that's because my WW filled her head with lies before I could tell her the truth.

The fact of the matter is that if you didn't tell them the truth, they would have been much more confused with uncertainty and lies (which WW would eventually tell them, if she hasn't already).

Your instincts aren't serving you well because of your fear of losing your marriage and your intact family. But you are already realizing that with WW refusing to EPs, your marriage would already be over. She has gaslighted you continuously, it's what waywards do. It creates guilt and uncertainty in you, just as waywards want it to.

I know this is the hardest thing you've ever done....we've been in your shoes before. We are here to support *you*, the betrayed spouse. None of the mistakes you made in your marriage compare to what WW has done to you, NOTHING. So it's good to recognize that you made mistakes in your M, you both did, we all do. You are willing to fix those mistakes. But don't feel guilty about exposure when WW committed the most painful and selfish act imaginable, and continued the A even after you knew about it. You don't expose for vengeance, you do it to end the affair. You do it because the truth is 1000% better than lies and secrets.

Great post, abrrba!

Thanks, Mel, I learned from the best & brightest!

Thanks again, laying down helped a little. I'm not in as much shock now.

abrrba - you are spot on I couldnt trust my instincts anymore. My instinct was FEAR, fear of losing her and my family. So I was compromising what I knew was right out to avoid the fear. It's how I ended up in a 2nd d-day.

WW has reopened contact, should I say anything at this point?

She's trying to convince me that I did something wrong and damaged them.

I would imagine that a good many who view marriage and family as sacred could be crippled by the same fear. Due to my religious beliefs and a deep, faithful devotion and love for my spouse and family, the thought of losing them was my worst fear imaginable.

Read the stories of those offering you guidance, they all went through this. Whether they saved and recovered their marriages or ended up in Plan D, they all came out the other side and recovered their lives.

Be strong, and be well. It won't be easy, but you will get through this. All of us were helped by other kind souls on this forum, and we are here to help you through these dark days. God bless.

You should agree that her affair has greatly harmed the children, your marriage and their family. Tell her you won't lie to the kids about her wrongdoing.

Have you told your 2 middle children?

yes, I told all 3 at the same time. very concise and direct.

Get the EPs in place asap. If you can't get that going, you really need to start thinking about Plan B. This has been going on for a very long time and I can tell it has had a very bad effect on you.

Good job! I misread your post.

You need to start working on moving to a new town.

Are you DONE letting fear run your life here?

You came here months ago, with an opening statement about how your WW's A was over and you had done all the EP's except for moving and everything was great except your WW was...acting like a wayward Many people (including me) told you the A had not ended. You really battled about this until months later when you found out it had indeed not ended. And then you came back with a second polyanna report about how it had COMPLETELY ended this time and WW was so remorseful and blah blah blah. Now you just want to be a unified front with her and bring her here and have her help you expose to kids...

Your FEAR of upsetting her or doing what you needed to do to end this months ago, has allowed months more of cheating to go on right in your own home. Your fear has let her 'recover' with you while simultaneously bringing her nasty OM right into your own bed. Your fear has kept you from exposing to your own children.

You seem to just want to put this behind you asap and recover and live happily ever after without making any real changes. Sorry, that is called sweeping it under the rug and it is NOT going to work.

You need to STOP allowing fear to control you Messy. I personally feel a little bit duped by you. Here is why. People come here with their own 'plan' initially, when they don't know MB and haven't been educated and haven't listened to the radio show and haven't read the other billion forum stories just like theirs. But you were here for months. You did all these things, you know the MB program. You said all the right things on your thread and just *omitted* the details that you knew we would object to. To me, that is duping us, it is different than people who argue because they don't understand, to understand and just tell people what they want to hear. Did you not know going out of town for work, when you had just recently discovered your wife was in an affair, was a BAD idea? Honestly, that seems like logic to me. Even if it wasn't common sense, you don't have to be here long to know that it is the wrong thing to do. It has no place in a healthy marriage much less one in recovery from a very recent affair (where your wife is still acting wayward and you are being told she is still wayward!). I suspect you knew what we would say if you told us and therefore you omitted that little detail. You never mentioned that you didn't expose to your kids. Again, I suspect it is because you were afraid to and knew we would tell you that you had to do it. What other corners have you cut and what corners are you cutting NOW in this second round to say all the right things here on this forum and convince us that you are serious???

Hey, its your marriage and your divorce, and that is where it is going to lead if you continue to let fear run the show. It is no skin off our backs if you cut corners and pad the truth and end up in divorce. But it is a waste of all of our time if you are not serious.

Please assure this forum that you are done being afraid, and that you are done just saying the right things and you are going to start taking this seriously. I am not at all convinced.

unwritten - Yes. I am done acting out of fear. You are right, I will no longer omit details. Fear again.

WW came home today and berated me for telling the kids for multiple reasons. 1. I should have talked to her first, 2. She doesn't think they need to know, and 3. I didn't tell them about my porn or abuse issues. (I said things were not happy between mommy and daddy).

She's still very angry, but I was able to explain my thought process and why I did it. She still doesn't agree with it, but its water under the bridge.

Here's where we stand at this time. After WW finished she basically accused me that my actions told her I was done, and just wanted to set myself up to look good in the divorce. I told her that was not my motives, I kinda think she believes me some, but still is mostly angry.

I told WW that in order for us to move forward we need to implement the EP's. She said she'll think about it, but first told me she doesn't want to give me the power. I told her it's not about power, its about protection, and I need to protect myself from this pain ever happening again, and she too needs to protect herself from the pain she felt herself. She's still in the camp of 'i'll think about it' and says she needs to choose to do it so she doesn't resent me. I told her it is her choice.

Secondly, she requested that I tell the kids about my emotional abuse and porn addiction. I'm currently drafting something age appropriate to tell them. While I don't believe I can compare or equate the damage caused by my issues and her affair, I do think the kids deserve to know that's a major reason for her unhappiness. Thoughts?

When was the last time you looked at porn? What precautions have you put in place to avoid looking at porn?

Have you read this and listen to the radio clips?
Dr. Harley on the Scourge of Pornography

Just let her know that you are "done" unless she agrees to extraordinary precautions to protect you from her destructive behavior. Let her know this will come to divorce unless she does. She doesn't need to "think about it" at all. She can accept or reject it and you can make your plans accordingly.


Decline the stupid request. Tell her no thank you. Why in God's name would you air unrelated past bad behavior to your children at such a critical time in your lives? This is nothing more than vindictive tit for tat from a butthurt wayward. Don't participate in her reckless vindictiveness.

He is currently looking at PORN????

The point of exposure is not to air your dirty laundry and make the other spouse look bad, but to explain to the children life changing events in their lives. The affair directly affects their lives in a MAJOR way and they need to know the facts. That is why you expose.

Your past porn use is not an issue that is a direct threat to the them nor is it causing your divorce.

Your wife wants to air your dirty laundry to the children because she is reckless and vindictive. You are the grown up here so it falls to you ACT like a grown up and protect your children from her vindictiveness.

I see here back in March you said you haven't looked at porn for 7 months. So her trying to bring it up now is exactly what MelodyLane said to you that she's trying to air your dirty laundry because of her affair.

WW has used the porn and emotional abuse (identified 2 weeks ago) as the justification for her affair. I own what I did, and I've taken EPs to prevent it, porn free almost 10 months, the emotional abuse is stopped, and has stopped since first exposure, also now that I've identified the behaviors to end it, I know even more what to stop doing. She doesn't like that the kids know her mistakes, but not mine. I don't necessarily have a problem telling the kids, but it's not affecting them now, so I'm not sure what the benefit would be, other than as you said, it's her justification, so in her mind it does affect them...

I told her the EPs were non-negotiable, to which she responded "you don't get to say what's non-negotiable, you don't own me". I told her I don't, she gets to make her own choices, but that I need it done in order to move forward. I'm expecting WW to not make a decision...

After some more time to relax, and understanding my thought process, she did admit she's still angry, but understands why I told the kids. Still doesn't like it at all though. I told her I understand that she's upset that I didn't tell her first, and that in the future our parenting decisions will be joint (assuming she implements the EPs).

so now I wait for her answer, not sure how long...

You are saying EP's are non negotiable TO YOU. For you to stay in the marriage you require XYZ and that is not something you are willing to negotiate. You are just telling her what you will or will not accept as conditions to keep you in the marriage. She still has the choice to decline.

It is the same as her saying 'Messy, you viewing porn again is non negotiable.' You would not consider 'negotiating' when and how it is acceptable for you to view porn, would you? That isn't a negotiation, it is a condition that she will not tolerate in marriage. Just as a marriage ripe for more affairs is a condition you should not tolerate.

EP's are a win win for both people. You realize that the reason she is bucking them has nothing to do with 'control' and everything to do with the fact that even if she has actually ended the A, she is not willing to completely close that door yet. She wants the option of making some kind of contact.

You get to say what you will live with and what you won't.


You need to stop acting like you did something wrong. So what if she is upset?


you have your answer. It is no. She is not waiting, she just doesn't care. She keeps you around to pay the bills while she shags other men. So I would start making preparations to separate and go into Plan B.

i am sorry to be harsh, but she is not going to commit to your marriage and it is unrealistic to imagine she will. She is just there for the income.

ML - I understand.

Any guidance on Plan B with 4 kids when I work full time and she is a SAHM?

Nesting seems like the easiest, but I know that's not effective. I have some help from family, but it would be really tough to manage the kids and work... It just seems overwhelming, I guess I could pay for childcare, but I don't know how I'd afford it...

Don't tell her, but see an attorney on Monday. Keep VAT on You at all times. Do not leave the house unless ordered by the court. The house needs to be sold anyway. Get away from the memories.

What would you do if you were divorcing? How would you handle things then? Since that is where you are headed unless she ends this A and agrees to the EPs (including moving), you are going to have to deal with how to handle the kids either way.

I would see an attorney and find out what your rights are in separation and divorce asap. Do not leave your home and do not agree to nesting!

Nesting would be a disaster that would prevent you from entering Plan B. I would contact a lawyer and make plans to move out. Get legal protection. Plan B should mimic a divorce, where you completely separate your lives. If you were divorced, how would you handle childcare?

Read this Men Don't Leave your Home

Will she write the NC letter? Agree to the EPs? Are you going to see a lawyer?

I just want to point out that this advice does not apply to Plan B. Dr Harley said that when a man goes into Plan B, he should leave.

Thanks for pointing that out. And that very statement from Dr. Harley is at the end of the "men don't leave your home" thread.

I should be able to figure out plan B fairly well, I have a place to stay and enough help from friends and family to juggle the kiddos. It just is frustrating that I have to leave the home. It's just added punishment for me.

Do you have an IM lined up? When will you be seeing a lawyer?

Have you read this? How to Plan B Correctly

Messy, you should consider Plan B if you start suffering emotionally and physically. You have been in Plan A a very long time. Dr Harley recommends 6 months for men and up to a year if they are in good shape emotionally. You need to decide if you are at the point where you need to go into Plan B.

Messy, your statement indicates very little if anything of your intent and your current situation. Have you decided on implementing Plan B, and why? Is this your true decision, or, as unwritten implied yesterday, are you responding with what you think would impress the members advising you. You offer very vague one or two sentence responses, and that indicates to me that you've pretty much checked out of MB and only return for sympathy when going your own way gets touqh and backfires on you! Melody just offered you accurate advice about the timing and reason for Plan B You owe it to her to acknowledge her for her effort and at least honestly disclose your situation.

Tom





Tom

I should add that you might be they type of person who feels reluctant to disclose information about your situation to the forum here. If that is the case I would urge you to contact Dr. Harley for individual counseling.

Honestly, I'm really trying to decide. I think the effects of exposure to the kids really had me reeling. The anger I received from her and her family was quite shocking and painful. I was assuming WW was done based on her responses and what she said. Even though its only been just a few days since then, WW's anger has dissipated considerably. I think she sees why I did it, and also sees that the kids aren't as messed up as she assumed it would make them.

I think the biggest thing to happen during exposure was that I realized I need to not be acting out of fear.

The last time I requested the EPs was during the anger of exposure, which does not surprise me that she rejected me. After the intensity has simmered, and WW told me last night she does love me, she's just trying to re-learn how to, I have a glimmer of hope.

My emotional state has been much better the last 24 hours and I think I can manage a bit more time of plan A.

I think WW knows about the forums, after I showed her the checklist for plan A in SAA, I told her about the radio clips and articles on the website when she was trying to understand why I told the kids, I know she poked around the website after I said that. Hence some of my vagueness around plan B. Right now I have some more plan A left in me, and I will not yield on the EPs.

I should also add, that as I've come down from the emotions of exposure I feel in a much better state. I'm gaining confidence in myself, and I know I wont give in on the EPs.

Also, I know WW is very depressed right now, so I think that gives me the strength to muster more plan A, because my hope is that the deep depression is a sign of continued no contact.

Finally, my last motivation to stay in plan A for a bit longer is that I realized the last 9 months it makes sense why WW didnt acknowledge any of my changes, OM was constantly telling her it didnt mean anything and that I was just faking it for my own motives. If I can get the EPs in place, I'm optimistic my changes will start to sink in, and wont be met with resentment and anger...

Messy, did oyu have any idea she was bringing the OM into your home during the day? What have your children said about this:? What have they seen? Did she see her BF at the mall the other day? Are you asking them these questions?

What is your plan to keep this from happening again?

Also, when you exposed the affair to her family and yours, did you tell them she was bringing the OM into your home and conducting the affair? What was the response of your exposure targets? You are very vague so its hard to follow your situation.

No, I had no idea OM was in my house. Children were at school or asleep. The kids also had no idea OM was around, they know him well and would have quickly said something, also they all were surprised about this at exposure and have not seen OM.

WW continues to attest to no contact with OM, but all I have at this point is her word and the limited snooping I can do.

Right now I've been home since exposure, I need to make a plan for going forward. As I said before, until the EPs are in place I'm going to assume the A is still active. I'm going to work today to figure this plan out.

When I exposed I didn't know the extent of the A, it wasn't until after exposure that WW confessed all the details, and that OM was routinely in my home.

All of my exposure targets, including WW family were insisting that the A needed to end. So there is certainly a lot of pressure to keep it ended.

I still love WW and I can maintain plan A until the EPs are in place in true recovery has started.

I would set up some real good spyware in your home, such as cams and VARs. Do you have a plan to set this up?

This isn't going to work while you live in the same town as him.

He is unemployed, and your wife is at home all day with the kids, and evidently, you go away sometimes for work. Even if you never go away again, his unemployment and her SAHM status make this an open goal. That was the backdrop against which he was able to be "routinely in your home", having sex in your bed while your little one slept. Even if he never enters your home again, your wife is free all day to talk to him and possibly meet him.

Please stop talking as if "EPs" mean openness and transparency alone. They cannot begin to work until you move away from there.

I'm installing security cameras on Tuesday.

Next major EP will be monitoring electronic communications, which will most likely be Mspy.

At that point the next step is moving, which will happen this summer. I've already made contact with a realtor, need to get some work done on the house in order to sell it. OMW does plan to move as well, but I'm not sure when or how far, either way, I want to move, too many triggers in this house.

Good! Is this being done without your wife's knowledge, though?


I would move far enough away that it is not easy for her to get to the OM or ever run into him. If you are thinking about moving 30 miles away, that will not do the trick.

I thought about it, but I'm sure she'll see the cameras. So it's not super covert. Once installed she wont be able to bring OM into the house w/o me knowing.

I will reach out to the realtor tomorrow again, going to get the house on the market quickly. WW wants to move, so many triggers for her too. I'm thinking we'll find a place to rent for a few months until we figure out what the next step is. That will depend on job hunting.

I would get some cameras she can't see. Any spy resource she knows about are useless because even a wetbrain can find a way around that. if she knows where the cameras are, she will know where NOT to take the OM. Find some cameras she can't see and don't let her know.


Perfect! Another thing you might be able to do is rent out your home. The key will be getting far enough away.

Checked 2 things off on the list last night:

1. WW said that she's committed to ending communication with OM. She admitted that it's hard, but she doesn't want to talk to him after all the pain she's in.

2. WW agreed to new cell number and closed down all social media accounts. She's also changing her username on the primary communication app they used and blocking him.

Also, I checked with OMW yesterday, they have taken extreme technical precautions as well and are considering moving, but that depends on if OM can find a job...

Next step is moving, we have all others in place - money is all shared, leisure time we spend together, no more nights apart, and I have full access to all her tech. That will leave just the NC letter. Which WW and I discussed more last night, she doesn't like the idea, but also wants to wait until she actually means it when she says she's picking me. Not sure how to handle that one.

I think for now we are in a bit of holding pattern while WW goes thru withdrawal. I think she's going to try and get on some ADs this week. Going to work on a few small LB deposits. Right now she just said it makes her feel worse when I'm nice to her.

That is good, but only if its true. You will have to monitor her closely to see if it is true.


Ok, you say she "closed down all social media accounts" and then say she is KEEPING the one social media app that she used to communicate with the OM!!

Say what?? C'mon, messy!


Hopefully she is watching him closely. Good for you for staying in touch with her.


The point of the NC letter is to "actually mean" she is ending contact. That is all that is necessary. Does she mean the affair is over? If so, then she can prove it by writing the letter.

I think you will see a huge step forward if you can your family moved far away! Hang in there! And close that HUGE GAP with the social media app.

Her not wanting to write a NC letter is a huge red flag. If she truly is picking you why wouldn't she write the letter? What is her excuse that she's giving you?

Yes, I agree, it was a start, I'm going to make the request again, there is really no need for it. It hurts that the app in more important than me, I'll bring it up again tonight.

Yes, OMW is watching closely.

Messy, this isn't your first time around. She needs to be all in, or she's not at all.

- She needs to shut down that app completely, not just change her name and block the guy.
- She needs to write the NC letter today.
- Rent out your home. Move to a rental house FAR AWAY (how far are you planning on moving?). Selling your home and buying a new one elsewhere can be done after you move. We did it.

Yet you tried to spin us by acting like she was implementing EP's when she is not. You said:


The news should have been "My WW refuses to close down the social media app she used to communicate with the OM."

Why not just admit she is not cooperating? It is ridiculous to say she is closing down social media when she obviously has not.

I agree, she's telling she hasn't decided if we are going to work things out. So she doesn't want to send the letter, basically telling me she's not shutting the door with him. Her excuse was that he clearly doesn't want her because he hasn't tried to contact her.

My response was, 'its been a week'... At this point I'll take the baby steps as progress I guess.

Right now what has me really depressed and frustrated is coming to grips with the fact that I'm forced to uproot my entire life, and she's not even telling me she wants me yet. I thought it was just about the pain of betrayal, but there's so many layers to this. ugh...

But it isn't progress.

If she doesn't send the NC letter, you cannot consider the affair over.

You're right, she keeps throwing my requests as being controlling, which is what she cites for one of the major reasons our marriage was rough. Like I always have, I responded out of fear to negotiate something in her favor at my expense. Thanks for keeping me straight...

How far are you planning on moving?

Messy, the time for "baby steps" is over. The time for recovery has arrived. You need to get the house sold/rented and move away from there. If she doesn't get on board, you can move away without her and go into Plan B.

Let her know what it will take for you to want to work things out. If she is serious about ending her affair, then she should have no problem writing that letter. Otherwise, you have to conclude she is not serious. If she won't do these things, then this will lead to divorce. <-----you need to tell her this.

No, she is controlling YOU. She wants to inflict her destructive, marriage wrecking behavior on you and you want it to stop. She needs to stop controlling YOU. It is not "controlling" to ask your spouse to stop hurting you and take steps to protect you and your children from futher harm.

I agree, I need to just tell her that is where we are headed. She tried to tell me that its better for us if she is willing to do these things on her own. Not fill out some list for me...

Again she's still fogged out. I need to hold the line on the EPs, I've told her that I need for them to move forward.

Prisca - I'm looking for work at least 200 miles away.

It is better if she does those things, PERIOD. It is laughable that your wife is telling you what is "better for us." How would she know??

Because if she doesn't, this will lead to divorce. Tell her that and stick to it. She persistently gaslights you and you need to stop falling for it.

Those EPs are non negotiable.

Asking her to end her affair is not asking all that much of her.

Have you read this Please Explain Gaslighting

I said this to you on page 33 and now on page 38 we are still having to weed through some *baloney* to get to the truth.

COME ON MESSY. I don't believe she is gaslighting you. I think YOU are gaslighting you. You want so bad for this to just be over, you yourself are trying to convince yourself that reality is not reality and what you know to be true because you have been here for months is not actually true. You know what needs to be done and you know it is not being done. This is not a case of you not knowing, this is a case of you willfully deciding to continue to try and tell us what we want to hear, and brush this stuff under the rug.

Please answer these questions:
1. Does she still work with OM?
2. Do you still attend church with OM?
3. Since you and OM were best friends, do YOU still have contact with OM?
4. Do you still hang out in social circles with OM?
5. How often did you travel for work over the last several months? You said OM was in your house (having sex in your bed) while ALL of your kids were home and sleeping. Since you have a 12 yo that means it had to be at night. You also said OM was in your home 'consistently' which means you were consistently gone at night?
6. With the current job you have, are you ever going to have to travel again or not?
7. Why did you tell us she had closed all social media, when in fact she has NOT?
8. What are you doing right now to sell your home and move? What is your plan here?
9. You have indicated on page 1 and also very recently that WW knows about MB and you have shared the webpage (even after we advised you to not bring her here) Does WW know about and have access to this thread?

Please answer these questions:
1. Does she still work with OM? - No
2. Do you still attend church with OM? - No
3. Since you and OM were best friends, do YOU still have contact with OM? - No
4. Do you still hang out in social circles with OM? - No, we had a few friends in common, but not anymore.
5. How often did you travel for work over the last several months? You said OM was in your house (having sex in your bed) while ALL of your kids were home and sleeping. Since you have a 12 yo that means it had to be at night. You also said OM was in your home 'consistently' which means you were consistently gone at night? - I had to travel 2 times in the last year, I don't expect to travel much. It was during these trips OM was there at night, the rest was during the day while the youngest slept.
6. With the current job you have, are you ever going to have to travel again or not? Potentially, but not likely at this time.
7. Why did you tell us she had closed all social media, when in fact she has NOT? I guess I didn't consider the texting app as social media.
8. What are you doing right now to sell your home and move? What is your plan here? Applied for jobs out of state, meeting with realtor today, contacting contractor friend to fix up house to sell.
9. You have indicated on page 1 and also very recently that WW knows about MB and you have shared the webpage (even after we advised you to not bring her here) Does WW know about and have access to this thread? Yes she has access to the thread and knows about it. I tried to get her on board with MB after the first exposure, so she's familiar with the website.

How long has she been reading this thread? What have been her comments in regards to this thread and MB?

This would have been valuable information for us to know

Honestly I don't know, I'm not even sure she's read the thread. Her main comments have been that she doesn't think SAA is a 'one size fits all' solution. She continues to hold my past against me, despite the fact that I've taken action to fix it. She uses that to justify the fact that SAA wont work.

Even today, when I've continued to push the EPs, she throws it in my face. That's when I shut down, because there's not much I can say, other than, yes, I did that, and I've fixed it. But in her mind, since it was over a longer period of time she has endured more, so I can't call the shots, at least that's my read of her point of view. I basically told her she should have treated me the same and not taken the risks that I wouldn't fall back into the addiction without EPs. She's mad that I didn't change until I was hurt, not sure what to say to that one. I can't change the reality of that.

Latest update on EPs - She's agreed to deleting the primary app they used for contact. However now the cell number change is on hold.

She also thinks I'm crazy now for getting the cameras. It was probably a bad move to not be covert about it, I might just send them back and go covert.

That is a great manipulation tactic to take the focus off of her and onto you. She's "MAD" about bad behavior that ended almost a year ago. CUTE. HOW CONVENIENT. Since you stopped and have taken steps to correct your behavior when she will she stop and correct her behavior?


So, you can call and just cancel the # yourself. Don't pay for her to have a phone she had an affair over if she is not serious about recovery.


Agree, send them back. nNt because you are "crazy," [she is crazy for screwing a married man in her children's home, for God's sake] but because there is no point in having cameras she knows about.

No progress yet, other than a verbal commitment to delete the last social media app. She's still considering the phone number change. I'm holding firm those 2 things need to happen.

You should be holding firm that ALL EP's need to happen.

I wanted to provide an update for all of you and make sure I'm still heading in the right direction.

We finished up the social media EPs, I now have access to everything and traceable records to all social media communication. NC letter has not been sent, and we have jointly decided to not move until we see how the recovery process goes. We both determined that since we'd only be able to move a short distance and that we may consider a farther move in the future it was best to stay where we are and prep the house to sell after next school year. Also, knowing my own stress levels I think a move at this point would make plan A extremely difficult.

I'm currently doing the best plan A I can, WW is still going thru the withdrawal phase, but appears to be coming out of the fog for real this time now that NC has been in place for over a month.

It's different this time around. There's real, honest communication on both sides. She's slowly opening herself up to reconnecting. At this point, my goal is to win her back through a strong plan A and a demonstration that my efforts to change and eliminate LBs are permanent changes.

I still struggle with the emotions of it being un-fair that I have to win her back, but I want to save my marriage and family, I try to keep myself focused on that goal when the weakness and fatigue try to get me to give up.

Special thanks to Markos - I've been re-reading a lot of your old posts lately and using that as inspiration to eliminate LB and make deposits.

Messy,

Why are you back if you 1) have not demanded a NC letter, and 2) have not insisted on moving FAR way?? To get the gist of what you have been advised here, please read the recent posts of chaulkncheese - she is someone who has backbone and does not let her WS manipulate her, and has put6 MB into practice as best she can. And so, she refuses the NC letter and you're okay with that.. Have you even replaced your bed where they made love?? Good luck to you!

Tom

Tom,
I understand your perspective because I'm not following the EP's to the t. I'm choosing not to move, and from what I remember from SAA Dr. Harley says it may not be necessary. I haven't given up on the NC letter, but I'm also choosing to not take a stand on that particular EP.

I'm back because I'm looking for support and guidance as we proceed into recovery, if I can even call it that.

WW is convinced she fell out of love with me prior to the A, but I believe she fell out of love with me BECAUSE of the A, and is hanging on to that to justify her lack of effort to restore the M. I'm frustrated by it, and I don't think its fair. I wanted to see what others thought who have been there and had to win back a WW. I understand that's my reality, but if I'm being honest, I'm struggling greatly with it. She's very much like Susan in SAA, feeling that I should be happy she's just showing up, and I'm like John, feeling like she should be happy I'm letting her back.

The problem is she is not yet making much of an effort to meet my ENs, there has been slight improvement. I guess I just need a sanity check, because I'm afraid I want the quick fix and I'm losing sight of the small steps.

Dr Harley says no such thing, if the affair partner lives nearby.

Please cite the page number where he makes this claim.

No, it is necessary. Unless he changed his mind since todays show at 1pm, you do have to move. He has said for years recovery is impossible when you live close to the OP. You have learned this truth the hard way.

if you have found a loophole we don't know about regarding the moving rule, please let us know so we can inform Dr Harley of this dangerous loophole that has been exploited.


This is like trying to reason with a falling down drunk and deciding fairness. Your wife is fogged out because of your close proximity to the OM.


Welcome to your future if you won't move.


Well, there isn't even a LONG FIX in sight unless you set the stage for recovery, and that means moving.

Keep in mind, you can do whatever you want. It is your life. But if you are serious about saving your marriage, you need to move.

So where is this loophole?

There is no "recovery" until you move.

I guess I interpreted the "if necessary" in the book as leaving it to an individuals discretion depending on circumstances. My hope is that OMW is successful in having them move far away. I know it is a goal for them. Otherwise we are waiting to move until next spring (at this point), I'm still job hunting. Also, if OM/OMW move far away that frees us up to move a shorter distance and allow me to keep my job.

Again, I know this isn't Dr. Harley's exact plan, but I'm not ready to try and tackle a move and new job on top of all of this.

Is it possible for recovery to begin without it being 'complete' due to the moving?

No. As long as there is contact (which there will be, even if it is passing by OM on the street), your WW will remain fogged out and recovery will be impossible. But we don't have to tell you that because you are already living it.

Moving "If necessary" means moving if the affair partner lives within a distance where meetings would be relatively easy to conduct.

If your wife and OM were able to meet without having to fly, or to drive for 5 hours, or to taking a long-distance train, and if she and he still live now where they lived then, then moving is necessary.

What, in your wildest dreams, makes you think that moving is not necessary for you and your wife?

She still lives within easy meeting distance of him. She is still fogged out and uncommitted to the marriage. You have made no progress in recovery, which is a sign that contact has not ceased.

Do tell me: when you use your discretion about your own case, what are the circumstances that make you think that staying put will help your marriage?

Why would you only be able to move a short distance?

My thinking was that if OM/OMW move far away, we only need to move to a new house, new town, but I could keep my job.

I'm not sure if that is meant as an answer to my question about not being able to move very far.

I quoted you saying that you would only be able to move a short distance, if you moved now. I'm asking you why that would be. Why are you unable to move far?

Sorry, we could feasibly move far. Pending a job and agreement by both of us to do so. Both of which neither one of us want to do right now.

This is still not clear to me.

Are you saying that neither of you wants actually wants to move far away? Why not?

Correct. All our family and support network is local. I'm not in favor of leaving my company. I really believe moving would be very detrimental to the M, due to the fact that neither of us want to right now. We are both open to doing it in the next year or so, but both of us are just too emotionally exhausted to take on something like that this summer and we don't want to uproot the kids mid-school year.

EVERYTHING is to your discretion, but if you want to recover, you will have to move. I have never seen someone make a loop hole out of that statement, so hats off to you for being clever! However, the "if necessary" is determined by Dr Harley, not you. It is necessary if you live close by as per Dr Harley. He has made this abundantly clear and so have we.


That is cute but hope is not a plan.


Actually that is in direct contradiction to Dr Harley's plan and he would tell you that recovery is impossible under these conditions. But, you already knew that!

No, you have this backwards. STAYING is detrimental to your marriage because recovery is impossible. But again, you know this!! The proof is in the pudding.

Yes, I agree. I would really like to move for a fresh start.

I think we are both still in trauma mode. We are just now figuring out how to recover from my addiction and the damage created there, as well as the damage from the affair, then trying to rebuild the M on top of that. There's a lot of hurt on both sides.

Messy, we have given you the recipe for recovery so you and your wife don't have to figure it out on your own, you just have to follow it. You have been dealing with this for a very long time and you should probably be looking at Plan B given her refusal to commit to recovery. I am surprised she has not consulted a lawyer yet to get you kicked out. It is probably a matter of time.

is the OM still coming to your house during the day when you are gone? And do you all still go to the same church?

You need to remember that this is basically an ER room, and we deal with traumatized women on the edge of a nervous breakdown that need to get into Plan B on a regular basis.

Your WW sounds foggy, not hurt or traumatized.

Refusal to send a NCL is a big red flag. Please do not delude yourself into thinking this is a trauma issue. It's a wayward issue.

Amen! There is nothing wrong with your wife other than a wayward, entitled mind.

No, the last exposure killed the affair. WW doesn't not have a means to contact OM, also the kids are home from school now, so OM would be seen. I have access to all communication tools for WW, she attests and I've confirmed no contact for 6 weeks.

We do not go to church together.

WW is taking some steps to recover (initiating conversations, initiating some affection, and planned a date night for us this weekend - this is a huge step for her), but is unable to commit yet, hence the unwillingness to write the NC letter. We are still in limbo. She still is uncertain that she can get past my addiction, and I'm still committing LBs in that area from my issues and that is triggering resentment from her. Unfortunately I wasn't acknowledging it as a LB until today and need to fix it.

I'm going to request again that she commit to recovery and send the letter.

How have you confirmed this? This was going on for quite a while in your own home without your knowledge. What do you mean when you say she has no way to contact the OM? And what is to stop her from bringing the OM around the children?


Do you still go to the same church?


In other words, you are in the same place you were when you first arrived and she is still using your past - and ended - porn addiction as an excuse to not move forward. And you are enabling that little manipulation. You stopped your porn addiction a year ago, so surely you can see that there is no reason to keep trotting this out. You are being manipulated and it doesn't help that you encourage that manipulation.

Bottom line, if she is not interested in recovery, you need to plan to go into Plan B.

"Social media EP" and "access to social media communication"?

Did she eliminate any avenue of communication (apps, anything) that she used to communication with the OM or does this mean you just have access to her phone now?

Your WW is throwing some crumbs at you and gaslighting you and she knows that it will work. It's really that simple.

It seems that you've been at this for a very long time and keep making excuses for why you're not in recovery and why you're WW is not on board yet.

Just keep in mind that the longer that your WW remains in this foggy state, it just becomes more and more likely that her wayward mentality will become firmly entrenched and even if you move away from this OM, she will probably move on to another affair and/or never really work on a recovery with you - she will just continue on throwing you some crumbs and gaslighting you.

Don't say that we didn't warn you.

Thanks to exposure, and the fact that the kids know OM, they would tell me if OM was around. OM has new number, any tool that she could use to contact him I have passwords too and can track history.


We uncovered an additional impact/area from my addiction, where my taker created an aversion in her. That is the LB I need to address, not making a selfish demand. I have improved, but the LB is still there subtly, and triggers resentment. We are working to recover that, I have sought professional resources to recover in that area, and so has she. I need to be more patient and not incite triggers.

She wants a recovery, just not committed yet. Saying she is still unsure of what she wants, I interpret this as her love bank isn't full enough yet to feel romantic love, and unfortunately my continued LBs are slowing this. However, I do believe that the A has ended my deposits are finally sticking, this is evident by her behavior and actions towards me.

I hope that this doesn't offend:

It is seriously unbelievable that you agreed with your wife not to move, and to continue sleeping in the same home and bed where and she and her lover, your friend, betrayed you.

I understand that porn can feel like a betrayal also. But that is not what's going on here. You are allowing your wife's convincing to take hold because you are emotionally exhausted. You are flailing and need to call on your support system for help to get you both out of there.

You and your wife need big changes. Do NOT STAY in a home where your wife is everyday pleasantly reminded of her passionate interludes with your friend and where she has horrible memories of her interludes with you...All because you are trying to seem reasonable due to your own past mistakes. Your wife's brain is different than than yours. Her positive memories of him won't fade. She will miss him more. Better to divorce now than to kill whatever emotional sanity you have left by a slow poisoning. With your tendencies, you won't notice until you're expired.

Conflict Avoidance Is the Kiss of Death

Your wife has the typical sexual aversion of any woman who has fallen out of love. The only thing you and your wife need is for her to fall in love again. You keep pointing to some ridiculous distraction about a long past porn addiction to describe a trait of an affair, the lack of desire to have sex.


Don't say she wants recovery when you know she doesn't. You also know her lovebank is closed to you so you won't be making lovebank deposits. You will be spinning your wheels as long as that is the case.

Her lovebank will NEVER be full if you can't fill it. You can't fill it until she COMMITS TO THIS PROGRAM OF RECOVERY. Will she commit to this program?

You don't have passwords to pay phones or secret cell phones. What is stopping the OM from calling or stopping by for a booty call?

Sorry to tell you this is all a bunch of bull.

She's still fogged out. And will probably will remain so as long as you live close to the OM.

To make matters worse, you are extremely foggy yourself and spinning your situation and misapplying MB terminology to make yourself feel better about your proximity to the OM being a factor in your wife's non committal to recovery.

A wayward continuing to be foggy when you live close to the OP is COMMON and must be addressed. Ask Dr Harley if you don't believe us. Write to him on the radio show. It's free.

BINGO!!

Yes, I know I'm in a fog of my own, I never thought of it that way, but its true. Maybe I need to increase the ADs.

Whats the best way to approach the NC letter? My thought is that I need to tell her that in order for us to start actually healing, she needs to commit to the marriage and sending that letter is a result of that commitment.

Should I tell her its non-negotiable to me?

if you make this into a demand, and your wife does as you demand, what will you have achieved? Will making a demand about the letter, and getting your way when she writes it, mean that she is committed to the marriage? I don't think so.

By now, you should know why Dr Harley warns against making demands in marriage.

Besides, by trying to get us to focus on the NC letter, you are trying to deflect our focus from moving far away, immediately. That won't work.

Demanding that your wife sends a NC letter while she still lives close to OM is pointless. To get you off her back, she'll just go through the motions, and then see him when she wants to.

You need to focus on moving away. When you've persuaded your wife that that's essential for the survival of your marriage, and when she agrees and follows through, she can send the NC letter and mean it, and it stands a chance of actually being effective.

That was why I didn't force the issue with the NC letter, I requested, she rejected, and said she'll think about it when she's ready to recommit. So I backed off, knowing that if I just demand her to do it, it wont actually mean anything.

Same with moving, I haven't been able to persuade her yet, partly because of my own hesitations.

First off, you can't persuade someone to do something you don't want to do and don't believe you need to do. Are you even going to bother?

You contradict yourself from earlier today:

So, which is it? Are you hesitant, or would you really like to move?

I still don't think you've explained your "hesitations". What are they?

We point out the lack of NCL because it's such an OBVIOUS little thing that can be done - when a WS is refusing to do that, they are probably not going to do much more to help the BS in a recovery.

That is the point we are trying to make. Not to demand that she send the letter and all will be fine.

You need to move in the hopes that she will defog and then be willing to commit to the marriage. Moving is your only hope.

He said a few days ago:
He chooses NOT to move!

Indeed, but why say that he "would really like to move for a fresh start"? Messy, are you telling us what we want to hear when we get cross and beat you up?

I think you would benefit from being honest with yourself, and with us if you choose to post here, about what you really intend to do, what you're prepared to put up with, what you refuse to do - everything.

This thread has gone round in circles for months, and your marriage has been stuck in the post-affair rut for months. It's time to be honest about the decisions you're prepared to make, and those that you are not prepared to make.

You're right Sugarcane, you all seem to be able to hit the nail on the head every time! Here's where I am with things, honestly. I'm willing to risk delaying the move and NC letter. The NC letter will come with a decision to recommit to the marriage and if she recommits, I may not even request an NC letter. If not moving prevents the recommitment, then that's a risk I'm taking.

I know I'm not following Dr. Harley's EP checklist completely, but I am choosing to delay a move. We have so much local support now, I think a move would be worse than staying. We both are in agreement that a move in the next year or so is what we want, but neither of us are ready for that stress currently.

That is where I stand. I believe we have started into recovery despite not moving or an NC letter. We have been getting a lot of good quality UA time the last 3 weeks, and it's apparent to me that her love bank is back open for deposits from me.

You still don't understand the severity of the addiction. They slept in your house in your bed. I don't understand how you cannot be triggered and I guarantee your WW is triggered constantly.

You cannot begin to recover if you stay in this house and sleep in this bed.

The name of your thread is very telling.

Recommitment?

You're uncertain about staying in the marriage and aren't willing to take the risk of really working on it. Moving and getting her to follow the EPs is just too much for you. Somewhere inside you, you must have more doubts about the marriage surviving than hope.

You want HER to show up and do the work. You want HER to show you how much the marriage means. You want HER to recommit.

Sadly, this approach is bound to fail and maybe that's ok. You might just be better off without her. It will wreck the kids and you can say it wasn't your fault. You can stay in town with your friends and family and run into the both of them at the store, at games, etc.

You think a move is stressful but you don't see that the way you're living now is the epitome of stress. You're still in the adrenaline of trying to save this. You haven't had a chance to feel the resentment that's coming and when you do, you will feel sick inside every time you see a car like his around town not to mention seeing him or trying to fall asleep in your own bed.

There was a WW here a few years ago. She and her BH decided not to move after the affair and tried to recover. They kept running into the OM until finally, the BH just said "I can't do this anymore" and left her. The forum tried to get her to move away and she and her BH wouldn't hear of it.

It would be great if you could just get clear about where you're really at. You don't really want to do the work to save this. You want to see if she'll step up and THEN you'll decide. The problem is, she's too fogged out and not in love with you to do any of what you're expecting.

Prepare to split.