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So I've been in a rocky relationship for quite some time. It all started when I lost a job and just didnt handle the extended unemployment well, taking out my anger and frustration on my wife. She subsequently stopped being supportive and poured herself into work. She stopped seeing me in a positive light and really stopped most efforts to meeting my needs. This was 3 years or more ago at this point.

We've done the counselling individually and together. It has not helped. We are both intuitive types in the Myers Briggs system (if you're not familiar we are very far more complex than the average population) and I think this definitely doesnt help us deal with things simply and quickly. our communication is pretty strong but for some reason I've not been able to move us in much of a better direction.

She has lost trust in me.
1. She lost trust when she saw me lose my job and not just take anything I could ( we never needed the money)
2. She lost trust in me when I wasnt beeming confidence in my new startup company despite telling her to take a step back from work and go back to school.
3. she lost trust in me when, a year ago, our relationship had gotten so bad I felt the need to start talking to different women and guage my marketability at 35 years old. (I'm still quite marketable it turns out)
4. She lost trust in me when I discussed our relationship with other people.

So I've not done everything right... BUT I discovered this site and the language that allowed me to better start articulating my needs and discussed this with her. Today I can say that my needs have been unmet fully for some time. We have no kids and generally no money worries, drive nice cars, buy whatever we want when we want (within reason) and really have no right to complain about much. Nevertheless, I've been communicating what my needs are to her for so long and in every way possible and because of the trust stuff... she says she cant do it... she doesnt think she can ever give me what I need.

I've also tried to find out what tactical acts of service I can perform for her... had her take the test... done those things but it makes little to no difference. She wants a "trustworthy and kind man" I say I want a wife that addresses the needs that are not appropriate to be met outside of our relationship. I want to be appreciated, wanted and have my needs met. They weren't being met and havent been for some time. I will admit I'm an attention fiend and feel that there is a debt that needs to be made up.

So last night on Valentines day my wife decides to use my computer and sees that I have a chat history with a woman that caused us conflict about a year ago. She reads some of it... and clearly goes ape [censored]. 99.99% of our conversations could not be construde as sexually charged, ~50% of it was me talking about my wife... generally looking for advice, 30% was talking about cars, ~20% random stuff. In fact, my last communication with her was to ask for help to make a custom gift for my wife and to see how her relationship with her BF was going. BUT because I supposedly agreed to never talk to her again (I wouldnt do this) I've just undermind the last year of our relationship and the efforts I've been making to build the relationship back up.

Meanwhile, I'm still not getting half of what I want for intimacy and I've not seen a look in her eye of desire in over 3 years. So I'm now kicked out of the house and really not sure how to proceed.

Anyone?

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You need to decide if you are going to commit to your marriage. If you want to commit to your marriage, you need to follow all of the steps that the veterans here give you. Start with this:

Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

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Any thoughts on how you'd change your recommendation if I told you there was NO affair? Not a single kiss or touch.I see her being validated in being upset but it has little to do with the idea of an affair and more about trust. I posted this here because she might think there was something going on but honestly I talk to dozens of people about my relationship. Case in point: I'm writing this right now for the world to see if they are clever enough to know who I am.

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Caddidle,

I don't really come up the forum much anymore, but, your thread jump out at me for some reason. I can pretty much guess what all the veterans here are going to say to you. Your wife is 100% correct in feeling like you "chatting" with another women undermines any work you have done on your relationship in the past. "Chatting" is how affairs start. regardless of your intention at the time, talking with a person of the opposite sex about anything personal at. all. is setting yourself up for, at the very least, an emotional affair, (if it hasn't already risen to that level.) Affair does not just mean physical cheating, in fact most do not start out physical at all. They start out as "just friends"

It is not a surprise that your wife is having a hard time trusting you given what you wrote about. If your wife feels she cannot trust you, she is not going to be inclined to meet your needs, and I would suspect the veterans here would tell her that is fine until you have proven to her you are, and will remain trustworthy and have taken the steps to affair-proof your marriage.

Again, regardless of your intentions, if this woman makes your wife uncomfortable, you should indeed never talk to her again. You certainly shouldn't be asking her for advise on your relationship or asking her about hers.

I'm sure the wonderful people here will be along soon to give you some steps you can take. Good luck to you!


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Originally Posted by Caddidle
she lost trust in me when, a year ago, our relationship had gotten so bad I felt the need to start talking to different women and guage my marketability at 35 years old. (I'm still quite marketable it turns out)
4. She lost trust in me when I discussed our relationship with other people.
......

So last night on Valentines day my wife decides to use my computer and sees that I have a chat history with a woman that caused us conflict about a year ago. She reads some of it... and clearly goes ape [censored]. 99.99% of our conversations could not be construde as sexually charged, ~50% of it was me talking about my wife... generally looking for advice, 30% was talking about cars, ~20% random stuff. In fact, my last communication with her was to ask for help to make a custom gift for my wife and to see how her relationship with her BF was going. BUT because I supposedly agreed to never talk to her again (I wouldnt do this) I've just undermind the last year of our relationship and the efforts I've been making to build the relationship back up.
Are you saying that you would never have agreed NOT to talk to this woman again? That you feel that it's okay for you to talk to her, even though your wife has told you that this upsets her?

Do you think that it is okay to check out other women, "gauging your marketability", while married?

Originally Posted by Caddidle
Any thoughts on how you'd change your recommendation if I told you there was NO affair? Not a single kiss or touch.I see her being validated in being upset but it has little to do with the idea of an affair and more about trust. I posted this here because she might think there was something going on but honestly I talk to dozens of people about my relationship. Case in point: I'm writing this right now for the world to see if they are clever enough to know who I am.
It comes down to this:

Your wife does not want you having friendships, online or otherwise, with any women.

Your wife does not want you to discuss your marriage with "dozens of people", some of whom must be women (other than the woman in question).

Your wife has the right to demand the kind of marriage she wants. Among other things, this means a marriage free of your friendships with other women. She has the right to end the marriage if you are not willing to deliver that, and that's what she's done.


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Stop trolling for chicks. Maybe your wife will trust you then.

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Welcome, Caddidle,

You have come to the right place for advice, but get ready to get pounded by tough love. If you listen to the advice you are given you can recover your marriage, and right now your marriage is in code red critical condition.

Opposite sex friendships are off limits. They lead to affairs as doesn't_want_meFL correctly pointed out. Furthermore, intimate conversation should be reserved solely for your wife. She is right to feel angry and betrayed by these chats.

Your wife does not feel safe, and she definitely doesn't feel loved because you have given intimate time to other women. She rightly sees this as an unfaithful act of a husband. You both have a lot of work to do, and you need to start by cleaning up your side of the street.

You need to write her an apology and follow that up by giving her complete transparency of your dealings. She needs technical accountability to know you will not talk to other women again.

You comment about you being "marketable" is a huge red flag. You have no barriers and you are purposely setting yourself up for an affair. Can you blame her for running for the hills?

If you are withholding any information and have actually started an affair, it needs to end right now. If you haven't had an affair, you need to completely cut ties with the women you are in contact with. If they have your contact information, you need to change your number and e-mail accounts so they can no longer reach you. You must end contact with them for life.

If you desire a romantically charged loving marriage, then you need to read the articles posted by Dr. Harley on this site. Read every article under "Suggested Links" on the left-hand sidebar on the homepage of this site. You have a lot to learn about marriage and you've come to the right place.

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I guess I'm just not sure I can go through the effort of pretending my needs are met and trying to meet hers again while she forgives me for "chatting" the way I see it is I've been deprived for years and years already. This seems like insanity to go back through this. We both love each other but I'm clearly too much work for her. She is far too independent and doesnt need me for a thing other than to make a baby and that is arguably untrue. Its been a year since she saw some chatting with this girl in the first place and it hasnt gotten much better with her thinking I hadnt spoken to her at all or not talk to anyone else about our relationship. I've worked my [censored] off to meet her needs and to no avail. She thinks she's made substantial improvements in her intimacy... but the reality is she is just letting me have sex with her more. Zero actual desire for me... its like its her duty. I need my wife to want me and I am skeptical it will ever happen now.

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Originally Posted by apples123
Stop trolling for chicks. Maybe your wife will trust you then.

Yeah thats a good one. thanks for the epic advice.

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Agreed... I also have right to a marriage I want... one that she is not delivering for years and years despite many very clear (think 100's) of conversations stating my needs not being met. When she brings up separation and divorce at the dinner table regularly and doesnt ever make you feel wanted... you start to think its over anyway. Which is where I was when I decided to start talking to this particular woman. Yes she feels she was victimized. And that sucks but so does being in a relationship where your wife holds the intimacy cards and shows no appreciation or affection. So she can get what she wants when I get what I want. Except this wont happen. Seems dubious.

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Originally Posted by Caddidle
Agreed... I also have right to a marriage I want... one that she is not delivering for years and years despite many very clear (think 100's) of conversations stating my needs not being met. When she brings up separation and divorce at the dinner table regularly and doesnt ever make you feel wanted... you start to think its over anyway. Which is where I was when I decided to start talking to this particular woman. Yes she feels she was victimized. And that sucks but so does being in a relationship where your wife holds the intimacy cards and shows no appreciation or affection. So she can get what she wants when I get what I want. Except this wont happen. Seems dubious.

So are you here to vent or to fix your marriage? Let us know, because if its the latter we can help you.

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So, are you interested in actually trying to use the Marriage Builders program?

There is so much more to a romantic relationship than just meeting needs. Your professed entitlement to opposite-sex friendships would be a deal breaker for most women. So I ask again, do you want to give it a try?

You should start listening to the radio show every day. Educate yourself. Meeting emotional needs is just the start. Marriage Builders offers a coherent plan for rebuilding troubled marriages like your's, but you can not just cherry-pick the parts you like and ignore the rest.


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Originally Posted by Caddidle
Agreed... I also have right to a marriage I want... one that she is not delivering for years and years despite many very clear (think 100's) of conversations stating my needs not being met. When she brings up separation and divorce at the dinner table regularly and doesnt ever make you feel wanted... you start to think its over anyway. Which is where I was when I decided to start talking to this particular woman. Yes she feels she was victimized. And that sucks but so does being in a relationship where your wife holds the intimacy cards and shows no appreciation or affection. So she can get what she wants when I get what I want. Except this wont happen. Seems dubious.
Where are you going with this justification? Hasn't your wife already kicked you out?


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Originally Posted by Justthe3ofus
Welcome, Caddidle,

You have come to the right place for advice, but get ready to get pounded by tough love. If you listen to the advice you are given you can recover your marriage, and right now your marriage is in code red critical condition.

Opposite sex friendships are off limits. They lead to affairs as doesn't_want_meFL correctly pointed out. Furthermore, intimate conversation should be reserved solely for your wife. She is right to feel angry and betrayed by these chats.


I believe in being open and sharing of generally all information. I do not shy away from politics, money, sex, religion or otherwise. Intimate conversations where I'm not being castrated havent happened between us for the majority of our 6 year marriage. If I dont have them with other people they never happen.


Originally Posted by Justthe3ofus
Your wife does not feel safe, and she definitely doesn't feel loved because you have given intimate time to other women. She rightly sees this as an unfaithful act of a husband. You both have a lot of work to do, and you need to start by cleaning up your side of the street.

I agree with you here. She shouldnt feel safe. I blame her for driving me to this point. I do feel bad but honestly feel that if she didnt ignore/abuse/deny me for years we wouldnt be here. I've cleaned up my side of the street but now... who knows where this will go. I've secured a bed for the next three days at least.


Originally Posted by Justthe3ofus
You need to write her an apology and follow that up by giving her complete transparency of your dealings. She needs technical accountability to know you will not talk to other women again.

Sure. This woman is whatever. I basically dont talk to her already which is why this is so annoying this resurfaced. Again, I think she gets what she wants when she becomes the Queen of my world. I honestly dont think she's willing to do it if none of this ever happened. Ugh


Originally Posted by Justthe3ofus
You comment about you being "marketable" is a huge red flag. You have no barriers and you are purposely setting yourself up for an affair. Can you blame her for running for the hills?

If you are withholding any information and have actually started an affair, it needs to end right now. If you haven't had an affair, you need to completely cut ties with the women you are in contact with. If they have your contact information, you need to change your number and e-mail accounts so they can no longer reach you. You must end contact with them for life.

If you desire a romantically charged loving marriage, then you need to read the articles posted by Dr. Harley on this site. Read every article under "Suggested Links" on the left-hand sidebar on the homepage of this site. You have a lot to learn about marriage and you've come to the right place.


I've read these articles. I've prepared myself for divorce is all by suggesting the marketability of myself. I'm an engineer and business man. I have needs and know how they can be met. When threatened with the loss of a job does one not try and find another job even while hoping his current job survives? The trouble with the articles is that for them to work she needs to actually see me as someone desirable. The result of the unemployment episode created a lens of pitty and discust in her eyes of me. Pretty hard to overcome and also just not true. I make VERY good money so its not the reality of it all... its her "feelings" which one cannot rationalize ever.

Simply put... when you're threatened with divorce after ~3 years of communicating your needs are not getting met things look a little different

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Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by Caddidle
Agreed... I also have right to a marriage I want... one that she is not delivering for years and years despite many very clear (think 100's) of conversations stating my needs not being met. When she brings up separation and divorce at the dinner table regularly and doesnt ever make you feel wanted... you start to think its over anyway. Which is where I was when I decided to start talking to this particular woman. Yes she feels she was victimized. And that sucks but so does being in a relationship where your wife holds the intimacy cards and shows no appreciation or affection. So she can get what she wants when I get what I want. Except this wont happen. Seems dubious.
Where are you going with this justification? Hasn't your wife already kicked you out?


She has asked me to leave the house for a little, yes. Not sure where I'm going with this. I guess if I could get one thing figured out its what can be done since she doesnt seem to have any emotional needs that cant be met with her GFs and some wine or the few things she asks of me. In order for this to work I feel that she NEEDS to NEED me. If I stop talking to anyone remotely controversial I still dont see a path towards reconciliation and a relationship where she shows me the affection attention and intimacy I require.

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It is accurate advice. No one person can measure up to what multiple people can offer. You need to stop comparing your wife to other women.

You also need to stop chatting with this woman. You may need to shut off all social media. Show your wife you are serious.

Beyond your relationships with other women, what are your wife's complaints? Start fixing these.

Men have a great advantage in changing a marriage because women can usually convinced.

Read these sections:
Basic Concepts

Are Friends a Threat to Your Marriage?


Why Women Leave Men

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You won't get your needs met if you are not meeting her needs. You are both stuck in a deadly rut, and neither of you know how to get out. Instead, you make it worse.

You both need to read His Needs Her Needs together. I'd suggest counseling with Steve Harley. I wouldn't suggest counseling with anyone else. He does his work over the phone. Make the investment.

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Originally Posted by Caddidle
She has asked me to leave the house for a little, yes. Not sure where I'm going with this. I guess if I could get one thing figured out its what can be done since she doesnt seem to have any emotional needs that cant be met with her GFs and some wine or the few things she asks of me. In order for this to work I feel that she NEEDS to NEED me. If I stop talking to anyone remotely controversial I still dont see a path towards reconciliation and a relationship where she shows me the affection attention and intimacy I require.
I don't really understand what you want from this forum.

If you're not willing to stop talking to other women, and you're not willing to meet her needs because she isn't meeting yours, and you've already left the home, isn't the marriage all but over? Are you willing to accept that? If not, what are you hoping will happen?


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Originally Posted by apples123
It is accurate advice. No one person can measure up to what multiple people can offer. You need to stop comparing your wife to other women.


This is very good.
Originally Posted by apples123
You also need to stop chatting with this woman. You may need to shut off all social media. Show your wife you are serious.

Beyond your relationships with other women, what are your wife's complaints? Start fixing these.

I think this is rhetorical but I can say that I've been doing this. We did some exercises that identified our major issues with eachother and both tried and to work on them. I've done great on all the tactical ones (picking up, more house chores, not forgetting to do things she's asked, etc) but mine are all tied into her mental image of me which I've clearly just made worse. Her mental perception of me is not shared with the world and also not representative of a version of reality. I still have to work on being less critical. I value truth and accuracy over harmony. For instance if you look terrible in XYZ outfit and ask me I will always be honest. Buyer be ware. She is overly critical on herself and I'm just generally critical with everything so it is like a double wammy on her. I have to just work on that if she gives me the chance.

Its really hard to work on being nice and not overly critical when I'm upset with her 90% of the time for not showing me the affection I need. prior to one of the worst valentines days in history, my coping mechanism was to just pull away and wait for her to want me... come to me.... except it just didnt happen. This only made me more angry and critical. It's a real catch 22.

Originally Posted by apples123
Men have a great advantage in changing a marriage because women can usually convinced.

I agree

Read these sections:
Basic Concepts

Are Friends a Threat to Your Marriage?


Why Women Leave Men [/quote]

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Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by Caddidle
She has asked me to leave the house for a little, yes. Not sure where I'm going with this. I guess if I could get one thing figured out its what can be done since she doesnt seem to have any emotional needs that cant be met with her GFs and some wine or the few things she asks of me. In order for this to work I feel that she NEEDS to NEED me. If I stop talking to anyone remotely controversial I still dont see a path towards reconciliation and a relationship where she shows me the affection attention and intimacy I require.
I don't really understand what you want from this forum.

If you're not willing to stop talking to other women, and you're not willing to meet her needs because she isn't meeting yours, and you've already left the home, isn't the marriage all but over? Are you willing to accept that? If not, what are you hoping will happen?



I'm gleening different perspectives from all of your posts! keep em coming :-)

Also where did I say I am not willing to meet her needs? I've leaned in... I've tried to meet her needs except it doesnt seem to work... she has no needs that I can meet. She doesnt want anything from me... not sure why she is still married to me actually. She tells me she WANTS to need me... I've not created a situation where she trusts me enough to make herself reliant on me. So there it is... She is guarded. Her guarded nature is only fueling my rage. its a death spiral I guess. Any way out of this death spiral? Should I just cut my losses?

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