I've lurked here for some time, as I've been reading Dr. Harley's books for the last 6 months or so, on recommendation from my therapist.

It will take ages to write all about my marriage. So I will try to do it in spurts as I can here, sort of a journal I guess.

As of today my marriage is the worst it's been. Last night I asked my husband to finally step up and join me in fighting to keep us together - for 3 years I've been in counselling, read marriage and self help books, trying to become a better person, spouse, and mother. My H felt that I was the root of all of our problems. I believed him. I've come a long way. And our marriage is no better. In fact - it's almost worse, since I now have much more confidence, practice assertion of my feelings because I know they're valid, and understand communication much more. This has all made me resent the fact my husband hasn't lifted a finger to try to change or learn about marriage or me.

I told him we have two options. 1 - we stay together, but if so, I require us to work through MB TOGETHER. 2 - we separate. Sit down, draw up an amicable plan, meet with a mediator. He told me he believes we simply are not compatible and that if us staying together means we have to change then he's not interested. He doesn't think we should want to change each other. He says we should accept one another as we are. Except that's not what he means. He means I should accept him how he is, while I continue changing for our marriage. His exact words were "so in order for us to stay together I have to read a bunch of novels?"

I explained all the ways I've changed already. I explained I want to continue changing if it means I become a stronger, more loving, more open and communicative person. Not just in my marriage, but for me as a human, for all my relationships.

At the same time as saying we are not compatible, that he can't stand living this way anymore, that we will just never be right for each other, that he's been unhappy for almost our entire 10 year marriage, he says he doesn't want to separate because of our business and our kids. It's "too complicated". So we just stay in this miserable, awkward, uncomfortable, unhealthy space? Why is that ok?

In the end he said he needs to think about it. Separation or taking one year to try the MB program. If I'm honest I'm torn about which I'd like to do more: option 1 or 2. The last several years he's only been with me because of the business and the kids. He flat out says that. I love him desperately, and I know that my flawed character traits have pushed him so far away that it may be irreversible.

What makes it all harder is we have a successful business together that we inherited in 2012 from his family. We live on the business property as well. His immediate reaction to MB was "we both work 70 hrs a week, how can we possibly manage the time this takes?". I tried to say - maybe the constant working is our problem. He didn't like that. But it's true. The business is the only thing we do have in common, that we ever actually discuss. And I hate it. We spend no recreational or social time together. He doesn't speak to me about anything besides work and the kids. He refuses to come to bed with me - he stays up hours longer than me and sleeps hours later than me in the morning. I feel it's all to avoid having to be near me any longer than necessary.

How do I know when it's time to just let him go? I feel I'm just torturing him. He's not willing to stand up and change anything, though. maybe I just need to?

Will be back later....

Hi, Onesided, welcome to Marriage Builders.

Are you aware of Dr. Harley's daily radio show? You can get a free app for your phone and listen each week day, and I highly recommend it.

In a situation where a wife makes her complaints and requests to her husband, as you have done, and the husband simply refuses to do anything about it, for whatever reason, Dr. Harley does often encourage separation. That may or may not provide the motivation the husband needs to finally start meeting his wife's emotional needs. Either way it protects her from the damage she suffers through marital neglect.

You might read through Dr. Harley's article series about this:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com//graphic/mbi8111_quit.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_quit2.html

Welcome to MB.

This paragraph makes me suspicious of another point of reference. Have you done any snooping to rule out a possible affair?

Thank you! Yes, I've read both the articles you linked to.

When I suggest separation he says "that won't work and I want to do everything possible to make the best situation for our kids". When I say what does that mean to him - do we stay like this forever? He says he doesn't know. He says he's felt like this a long time and still doesn't know the solution. I say I don't want to live this way any more. I'm 30. I deserve to be able to have a happy life for the next 40-50 years. I can't bear the neglect and rejection much longer.

I feel resentful that he says he wants to try everything possible when that's clearly not true. He doesn't think he should need to change anything about him or his behaviour or treatment of me. He isn't open to trying MB or therapy together. So clearly he's not willing to try everything possible.

To him it's simple. We aren't compatible. So too bad, we'll have to suck it up and just accept it and try to not be miserable. Oh well. This makes me feel like I'm just not worth it to him. Maybe I'm not. And if not, why keep trying.

And yes - I also have a radio archive subscription and have listened to hours of it on my own.

I haven't really snooped. He really doesn't spend much time away from me. We work and live in the same place together and he's a workaholic. He does play some multiplayer video games online, here and there, so I've considered he's maybe had an EA there. But I have no proof of that.

I'm sure an affair is possible. I have never been given any reason to suspect it.

Oh, no, you don't suggest separation to him. You plan for separation.

Separation is not something you plan together. If you could plan things together, you wouldn't need a separation.

So you save your breath and don't debate it with him. There's no need for any back and forth. You let him know what you need, you see if he does it, and if he doesn't do it, you protect yourself by separating (which gives him one last chance).

Oh good - that's very helpful for you! You can hear how Dr. Harley recommends wives address husbands who are reluctant about following the program, and how they are sometimes able to bring them around, and what they do if they don't.

I would put spyware where he plays his online games just to rule out an affair.

And are you saying he doesn't want to do 15hrs of UA time?

I wouldn't know the first thing about spyware.

All he's said so far is he doesn't think that many hours is manageable. Last we left it, he's got two choices: separation or trying MB. If he's not willing to try, then I'm leaving. He's fine with staying in this torturous relationship if necessary. I'm not.

Our kids are 9 and 7. If he had his way we'd suck it up till they're grown and then make a plan. I can't do 12 or so more years of this.

You've come to the best site on the Internet for finding out about it - check out the Operation Investigate section of the site.

Background:

I am 31. H is 37.

We met in 2004. I was 18. He was 24. I had just left my only other serious relationship. I had just started my second year of university (yes - I was young, I finished high school at 16 and started at university right away). I have always been mature for my age and was attracted to older men. My only other long relationship began when I was 13 and lasted on and off till I was 18. That man was only two years older than me. we had suffered the regular things young couples do - long distance going to different colleges, the desire to not be tied down. That "first man" was driven. Hard core committed to his future and being successful. He pressured me to excel so I could finish high school sooner and get into business school asap, with hopes of going to law school. I was attracted to this but also didn't ever want to stand in his way, while I also dealt with feelings that he was more interested in his chosen career path than me. When H and I met it was totally casual. We were sleeping together and spending tons of social time together with our mutual friends, but had no real commitment to each other. Over time he started just being around all the time. We got along really well. We both liked football and bowling and enjoyed each other's conversation. He was close friends with my college room mate, who introduced us. A year in he told me he was in love and wanted more of a commitment. By this time my first love had long disappeared after we had a huge falling out - I wasn't meeting his standards and he wanted time to be free. I resented having to meet a certain standard of accomplishment in order for him to want me. So, we had separated for good. I loved spending time with H. He was totally care free. Accepted and loved me for what/who i was. Didn't expect me to be a lawyer in order for me to be valuable.

I hated business school. My father was strict and expected me to go into law or medicine. I was always artistic and linguistic. I wanted a creative career and H was the first person I knew who supported me in that. We were happy. I left business school at the end of third year.

When I was 20 H was offered a job in a different city. I thought our relationship was over. But He wanted me to come along. I had just started my interior design degree program, but was able to transfer to the university there. We moved. We were happy, and he proposed. We got married when I was 21, and moved back home after his contract was up. Two months later I found out I was pregnant. I was not ready. I was on birth control. He was ecstatic. He was ready. My daughter was born when I was 22. I had serious issues during labor and delivery, but we were healthy and fine, and she changed me - she induced love I had no idea I was capable of. The next year would mark the first hurdles in our relationship. I changed. I became a mom. He told me I was no longer who he fell in love with. I also suffered from PPD and had huge body issues afterwards that affected our intimacy a great deal. I had gained 50 lbs in pregnancy and just didn't feel confident any more. Despite this I got pregnant and had our son when I was 24. My labor and delivery was life threatening and my gyno recommended no more children. I planned to get a tubal in the following year.

I graduated from university when my son was 4 months old. H had supported us all the time I was in school via his contracting business. I was ready to get to work, and quickly found an interior design job. 6 months later H's grandfather left us his family business. It was out of both our fields but would provide us several benefits - no more child care for the kids, they could be with us daily. We could choose our working hours to fit their schedules. We could move into the property at the business and rent out our house, which has been great for us financially. Plus the benefits of inheriting a very successful pre-established business. I had trepidations about us working together. He thought it would be fine. Pros would outweigh the cons. His contracting business was under water and I was nervous it wouldn't get better. So, the logical side prevailed and I agreed.

That was 2012. We already had issues - I wasn't who he fell in love with. He was already neglecting me. I was building walls to avoid being vulnerable. We both are guilty of tons of bad relationship choices. He stayed up most nights gaming. I got up early with the kids and handled all their activities, school, homework, all household chores, etc. He primarily worked. I put in about 50-60 hours per week. He works 70-80. I suggest hiring more staff to help and he gets upset - he feels
We should sacrifice and put in as many hours as possible ourselves to keep costs down while we are still young and able.

I want to live too. I don't want to just work away my 30's. I want to go to dinner. I want to try new things. I want to travel. I want to make memories.


More to come

In therapy I discovered:

- my self image issues after bearing children made me push my husband away sexually. I gained a lot of weight (50lbs), struggled to get it off, got pregnant again, gained some back, struggled to get it off again. I was ashamed of my body and how I looked. H has always been supportive, but it still affected my confidence levels in bed. He Says I'm beautiful. But he resented any time I took time away from the family to work out, etc. I resented he couldn't just give me that few hours per week to focus on me. To me this was the beginning of the end. Less sex led to many more problems.

- without immense intimacy we drew apart. H never pressured me. But I could sense he was withdrawing as many as eight years ago. by that point I needed him. A lot more than he needed me. I was still in school and raising our babies.
This made me extremely vulnerable. So I built walls to protect my heart from him. I let negative toxic behaviour in. I tried to avoid conversations about feeling rejection or sadness at the state of our relationship, since he didn't seem to care one way or the other. I felt invisible.

- I communicated poorly. I let cutting remarks take the place of my true feelings so I wouldn't have to seem so needy and vulnerable.

- his belief that we're just "compatible or we're not" made me think there was nothing I could do about all this. I'm sad I missed the chance to really fix it sooner. I fear it's now too late.

The result is a H who doesn't know me at all. He thinks I will use our kids as pawns against him in a divorce. This couldn't be further from the truth. My first priority is always my kids, and I'd never want to hurt them in that way. They need their dad and always will. Im sad that after all this time he thinks I'm that terrible a mother, that I'd do that to them. He thinks I'll be vindictive at every turn of this process, despite me saying "absolutely we need to be as respectful, fair, and equitable as possible while we consider all the factors." I've never given him any reason to question this.

It is not too late if he will follow this program, but if he is not presently willing to do that the best you can do is protect yourself through a separation. That is the only way you will find out if it is too late or not. Sometimes it does cause a spouse to decide they will do what it takes to make the marriage great.

I'd suggest you read through this from Dr. Harley:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com//graphic/mbi8111_quit.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_quit2.html

Onesided, you really don't need to journal every detail for us to understand your situation. I only tell you that because most posters will not spend the time reading all of that and will abandon your thread.

Basically, you have put many things before the marriage and have grown apart. You have not spent adequate UA time together and have not filled each others lovebanks. You have both engaged in lovebusting behavior. Result: your love banks are low and you do not have romantic love. You seem to want to change this and invest in your marriage, but he does not.

I would write him a letter and tell him you are unhappy. Tell him you are not willing to spend your life in a neglectful marriage. Tell him you recognize that you have done many things to make him unhappy, and you are willing to change those things. Invite him to commit to the MB program with you, where you can both invest in the marriage and create a relationship where you have romantic love and put the marriage first.

Once you have given him the letter, do not debate him on it. It is simply your requirement for staying in the marriage. Have you read about Plan A? Plan to do a Plan A for 2 weeks, and if he does not by that time commit to rebuilding your marriage, plan to separate. You are giving him the opportunity to work with you to build a great life, you can't control whether he takes it or not but you can control what YOU require for yourself. If he is unwilling to put the marriage first, you need to separate.

I would post your letter here for feedback before you give it to him.

Thanks unwritten. I appreciate the feedback. I'll be honest - I wrote most of those things for me. I tend to focus only on the things he's done wrong in our marriage. I'm trying instead to focus on the things I've done. See where I went wrong. Learn from my mistakes and move forward a changed person. A wiser, better me may be the only positive thing besides my amazing kids that I'll get from this marriage.

Our situation is doubly complex. We work together. I would like to help H find an employee to take the tasks on that I do, so I can be freed up to find a job. He doesn't want anyone else. He thinks I should just suck up all my feelings and be logical and put our business first, ahead of how I feel in our marriage. We are successful and doing well. He tells me I need to sacrifice and stop putting myself first. He knows no employee will put in the kind of heart and effort that I do since I have a vested interest. I'm also very driven and great at my job. It will probably end up that I have to give two weeks notice because he's so passive aggressive he won't do anything about it proactively in advance WITH me, effectively trapping me there. He says I need to put our livelihood first for our kids, and the place can't stay running without me. But I will need a way to support myself if I leave. He completely shuts down when I say we should place an ad and find someone that I can train in my position. He just says "i need time to think about this" every time. "How long?" I say. "I don't know". That's that. we will need to sell our rental properties, so I will have some money to get myself a place in the kids school district. He adamantly demands that he doesn't want that - those properties were supposed to be his "legacy" to the kids. He can't afford to buy me out of the business or the properties. So he'd rather I just shut up and stuck it out. I'm sure he'll force my hand in all of this so I will be the bad guy. That's fine. But doing Plan B is really complex for me. If I just leave and our business tanks my shares will be worthless and my husband will also have no job - so much for child support etc. I feel completely trapped. All my choices are hard choices.

At this point I can try plan A. But if it doesn't work (which is likely) plan B is tough to set in motion. The lawyer I spoke with has said I shouldn't leave the kids there. It would be different if H would leave. But our home is on his family property that we inherited. It's just not reasonable that he leaves and I stay. So I need this to be calculated and rational. It would be ideal if he was on side.

I have verbally told him all of these things. More than once, most recently last week. Will writing it down have an alternative effect? Currently his reaction is 15 hours per week simply isn't feasible, and I shouldn't need him to change. I should unconditionally love him the way he is. And also he doesn't want to have to read some "novel" by some doctor (his sarcastic quotations, not mine). Has anyone here tried the letter after verbal communication and received a different reaction?

Hi and welcome! I am sorry for the reasons that have brought you here but I believe you will learn a lot!

My ex also thought I should unconditionally love him and was not willing to do what needed to be done either. It has been a while and my life is so so great now, I can't imagine why I actually stayed so long in such misery.

Since you have mentioned and let him know countless times what you need and he has rejected you- I would skip the letter and move on to plan B. It is up to you but I wouldn't waste time with it. I don't really enjoy being rejected over and over.

I had to move out of the family home as well (which is harder) but I found a rental, a job and took half of the joint account income to be able to live. You will prob have to interview and find a job while keeping yours and then just one day be gone.

He can wake up to a team of movers-moving you out and if he gets crazy , call the police. They will let you leave with the kids.

Essentially you will have to do this without him.
Plan B is basically there to protect you so don't worry about what he is going to do with the business. He will figure it out.

I also wouldn't talk to him anymore about separation. I wouldn't really do plan A either- but just stop talking about relationship or bringing anything up. Just smile and nod
He might think this plan A anyways!

To recap: Just go make your plans, talk to your lawyer, cover your bases and plan on moving yourself.

At this point I would leave a plan B letter, once again outlining the steps he needs to do in order to prove that he is changing for you.... how to win you back and how custody is going to be arraigned, how to contact your IM if he needs something and letting him know you have filed for legal separation or divorce (this is a must to protect you).

I will be watching your thread.