Messy,

Dr. Harley definitely encourages couples to make lots of thoughtful requests of each other. Make sure that your requests are unmistakable as requests: no consequences if she declines, and worded as "I would like to have ..." and "How would you feel about ... ?"

She might be a little bit annoyed by your requests; if she expresses annoyance consider backing off for a little while before bringing it back up at a later time.

In the meantime, continue trying to establish habits that make the biggest love bank deposits possible.

Also, be sure you understand the points Dr. Harley makes about sexual desire in wives: a woman needs two things in order to feel sexual desire: 1) to feel bonded to her husband, and 2) the prospect of enjoyment in the sexual experience. If she doesn't have both of these, pressing forward is likely to create a sexual aversion.

In some ways you basically have to win your wife all over again.

You might find this article helpful:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com//graphic/mbi8122_raise.html

Thanks Markos, I do think she's just 'not there yet' to put it in her words. I don't think I've won her back yet, we are getting along better, spending plenty of UA time, I'm pouring on plan A...

I read the link you posted, she reverts to option C - just ignoring it, we intentionally decided to abstain for a few months because she wasn't feeling it, and I didn't want to force it (I'm implementing the POJA by myself lol)soI backed off completely for 3 months and wanted to re-approach the topic to see if things have changed, I'd like to open the dialogue to see what we could do to solve the problem. I will certainly make the request simply a request with no consequences.

And have you confirmed NC between her and OM?

I have confirmed as best I can via monitoring phone and email records. VAR hasn't detected anything. GPS locations are all appropriate and in line with her telling me where she is coming/going.

It's possible, but I haven't been able to find any evidence. WW is not very protective of her phone (as during the A) so that's also a sign to me that she has nothing to hide. Additionally, both OM and her have people checking in to make sure contact doesn't happen...

The only thing I'm aware of that could be a trigger or counted maybe as contact is that photos of OM appear on social media that WW would see (thru friends). I'm not sure how to get around this one other than to request that WW delete social media. I don't see that going well.

I would make that a request just like the others. "It bothers me for you to use {social website}." And don't let a fight happen if she declines to address your complaint. But do let her know how you feel.

Good point Markos. I think I've been hesitant to make any requests or complaints because she usually turns them back on me.

I think this is an area where we need to make change, in the past when one of us made a complaint, first it would be harsh and critical, not simply a complaint, then the other would get defensive and a fight would break out without much ever getting resolved.

Perhaps me leading the way and making complaints without criticism will start this change.

Well the request for SF was turned down, she's still not ready yet. I told her I respect that and appreciated that she acknowledged it was an important EN for me. I continued the negotiation with a request to see if she thinks there is anyway we can ease back into SF, via some affection. Not sure where that will go.

This whole experience has been a huge growing opportunity for me, I've never experience anything as painful as the A and then having to continue the feeling of rejection while I win her back, takes some much needed self-discipline on my part, I need to get better at it. But this requesting approach is helpful, gotta stay focused on the end game.

Is social media one of the avenues she used to conduct her affair?

No, she didn't use social media.

Messy, how's it going?

The negotiation for SF turned into a difficult discussion around the relationship. WW continued the fogbabble focusing on my desire for affection and SF as "compulsive and objectifying". Her IC has reaffirmed this by telling her 'people like me' (i.e. those who used to view porn) can't control their impulses. WW completely disagrees with MB and said that SF is not an emotional need... convenient for her because that's the only thing she has left to hold against me, saying that she felt objectified by me. I acknowledged that my taker turned SF into that at times, but reminded her that we had kept having conversations about it not being really fulfilling and what was going on? If I'd only known about MB and the A at the time...

The other frustrating part of this for me was that WW threw all the affection I'd been showing her back in my face to support her claim of impulsive behavior, even though, we had previously agreed that non-intimate affection was ok, and I had been very intentional to keep it non-intimate. She followed it with a 'a need to know that you want me for more than my body' more babble... I replied that I hope she realizes that I haven't been fighting 8 months to save our M for SF.

Anyway, the whole conversation left me angry, and I withdrew. Of course WW doesn't think I have anything to be angry about and confronted me the next morning for being withdrawn. I told her I was angry because it continues to feel like she is so focused on what I did and is painting me as a monster to justify her actions. Its also frustrating that she got angry that the issue turned into the bigger issues about her lack of commitment and action to work on the M, saying that it's not changing. I told her the reason I'm desiring affection and SF is they are my top emotional needs, and I'm not getting anything from her as reassurance the M will be ok, as well as I desire to feel connected to her and that is my key way to feel connected. It HAS to be about the bigger issue. Again her trying to deflect responsibility.

Bottom line, I know the conversation was a LB, but honestly it was a bigger LB for me than her. She flew DJ and dishonesty at me and it left me really angry and withdrawn. I feel like any change I make will never be good enough, and she's focused on the past. Apparently 8 months of changed behavior isn't cutting it. It's so hard to be finally free from the shame and guilt of porn and have her just keep throwing it back in my face, I know it hurt her, but I wish she was supportive.

Thankfully we recovered from the discussion and had a 'normal' weekend. I've channeled the anger into an ability to suppress my desires for affection and SF. Basically I'm really insulted that she thinks the only reason I want to save the M is for SF. I've completely stopped all affection or touching, except for 1 kiss and hug each morning as I leave for work, which she initiates. Its been almost a week, and she hasn't made any comments.

Otherwise I'm able to maintain plan A, just a little more disconnected. I think I was being too needy and pushing her away.

Ugh, this process is hard and unfortunately I'm learning from making mistakes... Hard part now is to not stay withdrawn, I'm tired of acting as if nothing is wrong so she can feel like things are at peace and not make a decision to recommit or reconnect to me and the M.

Forgot to add that WW went through my phone over the weekend while I was outside. I intentionally left my phone available, but it concerns me that she went through it and didn't say anything to me. I don't have anything to hide, in fact my monitoring software tells her all of my activity, BUT I know she read through all of my text messages. I think she's just trying to find dirt to be mad at me for...

Not sure if I should ask her about it, or wait for her to bring it up during an argument like she has in the past lol...

Your angry outburst set any progress you have made back to square one.

Dr. Harley says that no marital problem can be solved until angry outbursts are eliminated. You, sir, are demanding, disrespectful and angry. You have made it near impossible for her to meet your needs.

Can you tell me what Dr. Harley says about anger? Who makes you angry, according to him? How do you eliminate angry outbursts?

And the problem with her going through your phone is .......?

Messy,

Remember that the recovery plan is for you to make enough love bank deposits and avoid withdrawals that she feels in love with you. She won't feel motivated to meet your emotional needs until that happens.

If your needs aren't being met then you need to be looking for ways to refine your love bank depositing approach so that you can meet the goal sooner, and you need to be looking for ways to avoid love bank withdrawals. Relationship discussions are typically a big love bank withdrawal especially if they include demands, disrespectful judgments, and anger like this one did.

Question: are you listening to Dr. Harley's radio show, every day? There's a lot of information and motivation there that you need to stick to the plan and make it work. Steve Harley told me that I needed to "embark on a program of education" about Marriage Builders so that I could get the logic of the plan firmly reinforced in my mind so that I would be able to override my emotional impulses with logic and stick to the plan until it worked.

Why does this concern you? what's wrong with her going through your phone, and why does she need to say anything to you about having done so?

What does Dr Harley say about monitoring a spouse's online activity - do you know?

Why are you even posting about this? What is the problem with her doing this?

Do you have any dirt for her to be mad at you for? If not, why are you bothered about her doing this?

Why do you need to do either? Is there anything wrong with what she did? What, if so?

You have posted today as if we obviously agree with you about recent events, and as if we would chuckle along with you, but your posts are full of DJs and unpleasant insinuations...and "lol" does not excuse this.

Thanks for the feedback, Dr. Harley would say I'm angry because I'm not getting what I want. I'm angry about the A, I'm angry that she hurt me and hasn't provided just compensation or a willingness to work on the M for over 8 months. I'm angry that my plan A efforts are met with doubt, I'm angry that I'm not getting what I want - a better marriage and a wife that loves me and wants to meet my needs.

I understand I need to overcome the AO, I need to avoid trying to convince WW to make a decision. I'm worn out from this, my hurt from the A has switched from grief/neediness to anger, I know that's not an excuse for an AO. I need to finish reading through love busters and work harder to eliminate them.

Thanks AGAIN (I need to continue to learn how to improve and the reminders help!) for the reminder Markos, I haven't been able to listen to the radio show regularly, just a few clips here and there. I'm not sure how I squeeze that into my day, but I'll see if I can find a time window to squeeze this in.

It's not really a problem, its mostly that it's not reciprocal, she would be angry if I went through her phone.

I guess what bothered me by it was being sneaky about it and not acknowledging anything about it. I am letting it go, it just bothered me for some reason, but like I said, I have nothing to hide so I'm not concerned about what she saw or would see.

Nononono: he would not say that at all.

That's a fail. You need to study this properly.

What does Dr Harley say about anger? According to him, who makes you - and that means you, me, or anybody - angry?