Until I have removed 'the plank from my own eye', so to speak, I don't think I can point out the dust in his eye. He's already overwhelmed with everything he's reading, and he's feeling criticized by me. If I push this issue and point my finger at him, I think it'll just be gas to the fire. I should point out that he is not ever physically abusive in any way, and I don't ever fear for my safety. I think it's better to lead by example at this time.

Also, I still haven't been able to get my books (LB & HN,HN) from storage, so I ordered another copy of Lovebusters and I also ordered He Wins, She Wins, since we both clearly need help in the negotiation department.

Insisting that your husband not have angry outbursts is not taking dust out of his eye. Angry outbursts are serious business. A point we often make here is that no matter what a person has done, they do not deserve to be punished with angry outbursts - that includes even if you are ever demanding, disrespectful, or angry yourself.

You don't have to EARN an end to abuse by doing everything right first - it needs to end immediately.

Dr. Harley's position on angry outbursts is that they should never be tolerated in marriage, for so many reasons. Besides everything I just mentioned, they are incredibly dangerous. Even if a person's angry outbursts have never been violent before there is no predicting what a person will do in an angry outburst, because he or she is temporarily insane.

I strongly encourage you to start following Dr. Harley's advice on this immediately - don't tolerate angry outbursts from your husband.

Thank you Markos. I had to read that one a few times to really get it to sink in.

We�ve made some progress since your post. We�ve had some brief talks. Seems he thought I don�t care how he feels, and that I preferred to ignore issues rather that discuss them. I explained that this isn�t true. I care very much how he feels! I want the issues resolved too, but the way we�ve tried to do it has not worked. I explained what makes discussion unpleasant for me; being talked over, being interrupted, not being heard, having my point of view or my feelings dismissed, and being �lectured� to in order to convince me that I�m wrong or that I shouldn�t feel the way I feel.

The AO have stopped. He told me he has decided he's not going there anymore because he's out of his mind in that state. We both agree our communication methods have been horrible, and that we're BOTH out of our minds when the AO start. We agree on how destructive the fighting has been, that we both hate it and it absolutely needs to stop if our marriage is going to survive. We also agree we don't want it to just 'survive', we want it to flourish.

In trying to talk constructively, he initially was talking over me and interrupting me, and I told him this doesn�t work for me and until he stops this, I can�t talk with him. He�s made a very strong effort to stop this and we�ve started to have a true dialog.

..and my books will be arriving this week (Lovebusters & He Wins, She Wins), so we'll have some tools to work with.

Will your H listen to these?

I don't think he would do it on his own. However, I listen to the show daily, and he does overhear them (it's a small house). I will listen to this one (and the others that deal with AO) again at a time when he's around and would over hear it.

We've been doing A LOT better. We're both doing very well with not having ANY AO or DJ. We're both being much more thoughtful and working to meet each others EN. We're also being careful with communicating; and trying to be more clear, listening better, taking turns talking, and recapping conversations so there is no misunderstanding.

My books came in the mail, and I was fearful that he would get annoyed or upset when I opened the package and he saw them. He actually did take an interest and took a look at them. No negative reaction at all, in fact, his attitude was calm and welcoming. And even though he hasn't used the POJA phrase lately, he is definitely attempting to follow it and making sure I'm in enthusiastic agreement before we do anything. I've also been mindful of the POJA and working to make it a habit all the time. I am guilty of IB (buying books on my own, for example). So I've been careful to involve him in stuff I usually just take care of, just to be sure we're on the same page before I act. So things are looking up!

Why?

Anger Management is not really something you can pick up by osmosis. Is he on board, or is he not?

fretless,

Dr. Harley's program works, but it doesn't work if you don't follow it.

If your husband is not eagerly, enthusiastically learning how to eliminate his angry outbursts, the plan is to separate. Anything else is going to lead to the end of your marriage.

How soon can you get into Plan B? Are you prepared? You need to start Plan B preparations at the beginning of Plan A, according to Dr. Harley.

When a wife faces the problem of a husband who won't learn to stop his angry outbursts, Dr. Harley's advice is to prepare for a separation.

Because a separation and a divorce is coming whether you like it or not.

If you separate early, it may be just the thing that causes him to wake up and finally decide to turn around.

And if you separate early, it may mean that if he turns around, you still have enough good feelings for him that you are willing to reconcile.

If you don't separate in time, then if he finally does decide to turn around you will probably hate him so much that you will not be able to reconcile with him or not be able to stop punishing him, and we will not be able to talk you into saving your marriage.

Do you want to save your marriage, or not? A separation can be easily called off if it works. But nothing can fix it when you drag your feet on separating. If you are not willing to separate, then you might as well just divorce because this is hopeless.

You have to insist that if he wants to keep you he has to learn to stop the love busters and meet your emotional needs. If you don't insist on that, we cannot help you.

fretless,

Dr. Harley highly recommends that women give their husbands an ultimatum.

Please take a listen to this radio show and listen to what he says about it:

http://marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=09920

Why? Because he has already told me he's overwhelmed with material to read. And while he will acknowledge some of his issues, I think he's of the opinion that I'm just too sensitive and if I could stop being that way, the problems would be solved. He always seems to return to that opinion.

Is he on board? Probably not. Neither of us want to end the marriage, but we do want to end the suffering. His assessment seems to be that if I were to stop being upset/angry with him, he would have no problem with our marriage. I hate to say it, but I think that's the 'crux of the biscuit'. He doesn't understand why I am offended by some of his behaviors, and if he can't understand it, it is therefore wrong. I think in his mind, if he's happy, I should also be happy. And if he can explain to me why how I feel doesn't make logical sense, I won't feel that way, and the problem would be solved.

Case in point today we had an problem. I was busy repotting plants, and he sat down and started telling me the latest news he read on the internet. I couldn't focus on what I was doing, but I know this is one of his needs, so I paused my work and sat with him and engaged the conversation. He then realized he was interrupting me and I said that's ok, I can get back to that, and I want to hear what you have to say. He said he really wasn't trying to interrupt me and started to get up, and I protested, but my voice raised a pitch and got squeaky because I was getting upset at the direction this was going. (My squeaky tone is one of the triggers that, in turn, upsets him). So he tried to quell him own response by making light of the situation. Except that his making light of it was to say (in a mimicking of my squeaky voice) "it's ok! And you don't have to get upset! And you don't have to get squeaky!".

I apologized for getting squeaky but told him that mimicking me is hurtful to me. To this he told me that he's just making a joke, making light, and has good intentions of diffusing the situation. I said diffusing is good, and making humor is good, but doing it this way is doing it at my expense. We had recently talked about this, and how I find his mimicry to be hurtful. So he responded that I'm too sensitive and I shouldn't be hurt by this. I responded that a better way to make humor might be if he made fun of his own behavior instead of mine, and then he could have accomplished his objective of diffusing himself without hurting my feelings.

So this went off to raised voices and him trying to convince me that since being hurt by something done with good intentions doesn't make sense, I shouldn't feel that way. I told him good intentions doesn't make it right. It escalated and he started talking over me again and I lost it. I asked him a few times to leave the room and leave me alone. When he didn't, I screamed the same at him.

He went to another part of the house for a while and then returned to try discussing again. I had calmed down some, so I engaged him. He asked me if I could see his point of view, and when I started to respond that I could, and I can really sympathize with how he must feel because it's probably very confusing for him at times to understand me. He started talking over me again, right after the 'I could' part, and getting louder to drown me out. This escalated to both our voice getting louder, both of us talking and no one being heard. I ended it by screaming at him that it isn't a conversation when only one person is allowed to talk, and if he's going to talk over me, I can't talk with him, so go away and leave me alone.

So I went and listened to the whole anger management audio again, and he went outside.

I did hear that one the other day. I listened to the entire thing again just now.

I really don't like the idea of separation, because I think it would be the last straw for him and we'd end up in a divorce. To go there, I'd have to be prepared to have it backfire on me, and be prepared for the worst. I'm not there yet.

But I suppose I can make an ultimatum of him joining me reading the books and getting on board with the program.

I think he's reluctant to engage the program because he thinks my reading about these things is the problem. He sees it that when I focus on marriage counseling type material, our problems increase. He has actually said that. But the reverse is true; it is the problems that cause me to seek answers and solutions.

Most of our married friends are in situations that fit that phrase the Harley's hate; Happy Wife, Happy Life. We know men who remain married by doing the 'yes Dear' route, and we pity them. I believe he'd rather be alone than live like that, and I agree.

In one of our more recent, better talks, we talked about the small things that escalate into lovebusting wars that do major damage. It's a case of 'winning the battle, but losing the war'. I think he's afraid if he gives up any ground, he'll be closer to that dismal, 'yes Dear' 'hen pecked husband' life.

And I think he has genuine confusion about how to deal with me. He doesn't understand my emotions. He likes the good ones, but he wants the unpleasant ones to just go away because they don't make any sense to him.

I just wanted to stop by and let you know that separating is really the only chance at not divorcing.
It seems counter-intuitive for most people but it is the truth.

I know as a woman who should have done it long before I did-you are already on the divorce track no matter what it seems and you are dealing with your own fantasy fog to think otherwise.

Could it lead to divorce by separating-yes... but you are already on that track now. If you pull the strings, at least you have some control over it-while also giving your marriage the best shot it has. What if he surprised you and started doing everything he could to keep you? You never really know.

For now some tips: When your H starts to talk over you-get angry.... leave.
I mean whenever, however and no matter what. STOP TALKING.
You can Not reason with him at that point.

Just walk away. Get out of the car. Leave and go to a safe place. I will say it again just for effect: Leave!

So when the situation started to go south- stick to the script Dr. Harley has us use:
"It bothers me when you mimic me."
He starts in "blah blah blah" getting angry and Disrespectful.
You just stand up and leave. You say nothing else. Just leave.
If he follows you- still say nothing- get in your car and leave.

You have to do this every single time. You never ever yell to leave you alone- You leave. Never ever ever ever tolerate being in a room while he starts to get defensive and angry.
"It bothers me when you talk over me"
Doesn't matter if he heard you or not- then you leave.

I hope you get the picture. This will at least help you for now stop reacting and yelling yourself.

What would be the "or else" embedded in that ultimatum?

Has he learned about AO's and DJ's and is he trying to avoid them? I am asking because in your last post you indicated that you were doing better, and he was not having AO's or DJ's. But given your explanation of his general attitude here, it seems like the opposite. It seems like he has not identified or stopped his AO or DJ behavior at all.

Of course you already know what we are going to say, that you need to separate if he is unwilling to meet your needs and avoid the abusive behaviors. His general attitude seems to be that he does not need to do these things and you just need an attitude adjustment.

The worst is going to happen. You get a choice to manage it and try to steer it toward something better, but the way you are going now is not going to make anything better.

There are really only three ways this can go:

1. You issue an ultimatum and back it up with separation if he doesn't step up. He decides that if this is what it takes to keep you he will learn to control his temper and stop other love busters. You both live happily ever after.

2. You issue an ultimatum and back it up with separation if he doesn't step up. He decides not to do what it takes. You live happily ever after without him.

3. You wait and hope. He will never do what it takes. You go through another 8 or 10 or 18 years of pain and heartache and end up damaged. Maybe if you are lucky you pick up the pieces afterward and live happily ever after without him, but you spend the rest of your life wishing for those 18 years back, wishing you'd done this sooner.

You are hoping there's another option here, and there isn't.

We know. They are all like that.

What turns them around is a wife with high standards who insist that their husband has to do what it takes to give them a good marriage.

The ones who don't insist keep coming back here year after year, sadder and sadder. You can read all about them here on old threads. Some of them have been doing this for over a decade. They are still hoping that they won't have to insist.

The only thing a separation is going to do is hurry on up what would've happened anyway. So, if he is the kind of man that is going to step up and change what needs to be changed, it will happen sooner. If he's the kind of man that will never change for you and would rather just divorce, that will happen sooner. Whatever is going to happen will happen sooner. Sooner means less heartache in the long run, either way.