On the first page, some expressed hope that yes, spouses can turn around but the chances are narrow.

Call me dense, but I honestly didn't realize 2 years ago that she was so determined to end it all.

To markos:

I need to get the app. And read that specific book by Hartley you mentioned.

Yes, teaching my kids about faithfulness is very important to me. Our daughter is in a serious relationship with a fine young man. Very happy for the two of them. He's from a good family with parents that have a healthy relationship. And they both have good values and a good relationship.

To which specific show of Dr. Hartley's are you referring?

(12) RE: kids knowing of the affair.
I'm still trying to figure out if the kids should know about the affair. If we don't split up nor divorce, I doubt I would want the kids to know. If we do split up, I probably do want them to know otherwise they might think the divorce was all my fault.

To unwritten:
(13) The OM is not married. He evidently was and has a daughter from his first wife. He sounds like someone who enjoys "playing the field" so to speak.

(14) Yes, she declared her disengagement from me 2 years ago. And she gradually put up more and more walls. I can see from our texts 18 months ago when she would still express in minor ways some love and concern for me (heart smiley every once a while). Call me dense, but I honestly didn't realize 2 years ago that she was so determined to end it all. I honestly thought she would realize she had a good thing with me and not destroy it. But as the months rolled on, the distance between us became greater. Finally, in October we got to counseling (stupid mistake on my part not going sooner... but I foolishly thought I could fix our marriage ourselves).[quote]

I am sorry to see you are wasting your time in marriage counseling now. It is a needless distraction from your marriage problems. As you can see, it has helped nothing. Counseling is very desrtructive to marriages in crisis and almost every saved marriage on this forum can attest to this. Marriage counselor's have a higher personal divorce rate than the general population.

[quote]After going to counseling, things got worse. As she expressed her disappointments and frustrations with me, it helped her build more walls. In the process of verbalizing it in counseling, she became more determined to distance herself.

Please understand, I do respect what you're saying and I'm trying to think through the implications of your advice, because it still seems to me like the nuclear option and once I press that button, I can't undo any damage caused by publicly exposing this. So yes, I'm thinking through what you're saying... just hesitant to make an unretractable decision to do it at the moment.

(15) I am snooping on my wife in a way that she has no idea about. I can track the location of her phone so I know where she is at any time. And I can see the past history of it all. So yeah, I know when she was in that other city and where and everywhere she goes. How do I put spyware on her phone without her knowing? Or VAR? Is that illegal?

Due to our location, there is virtually no chance the OM will visit my wife in our city.

(16) RE: fears, hopes, wishes... and a plan
All of us have fears, hopes, and wishes. I'm simply try to express mine. No, I do not think any of those are a plan to execute. I'm doing everything possible to show my wife I love her and to wait for her to choose to love me. On the first page, some expressed hope that yes, spouses can turn around but the chances are narrow.

The plan in the back of my mind right now (and I'm still thinking through this), is to expose all of this to her parents when we visit them in June. They live in another state. They don't know of any of this. We will stay with them, and I would like to explain first to her father what all has happened, not just her affair, but also my failures that created a context for my wife to seek someone else.

Well, she did really neither. She wants space, freedom, and independence from me and the kids, but she's also not willing to end our marriage. She's very indecisive. And yet, she will not do anything that could be seen as a positive step for rebuilding our relationship.

The same can be said about telling children about an affair. My experience with the positive outcomes of hundreds of families where an affair has been exposed to children has led me to encourage a betrayed spouse not to fear such exposure. In fact, to mislead children, giving other false explanations as to why their parents are not getting along, causes children to be very confused. When they finally discover the truth, it sets an example to children that dishonesty is sometimes acceptable, making them the judge of when that might occur.

An affair is an attack on children as well as the betrayed spouse. And it's true that children are deeply affected by this form of irresponsible behavior. But it's the act of infidelity that causes children to suffer, not the exposure of it. Facts point us toward solutions. Illusion leads us astray. That's true for children as well as adults.

Q: So, you do suggest telling our 10 year old son? Is this more than he can handle? He never saw any real unhappiness as my husband and I had a very low conflict marriage. I have been protecting our son from this truth. He still has hope that his dad is going to come home.
___________________________________
A: As for your son, the truth will come out eventually, even if you get back together again. And your son won't be emotionally crippled if he hears the truth. It's lies and deception that cripple children. He should know that your husband is choosing his lover over his son's mother. It's a fact. He's willing to ruin a family unit all for what.

When I first started recommending openness about an affair, I wasn't sure what would happen. But I did it because I knew it was the right thing to do. Now I know that for most couples it marks the beginning of recovery.

The reason that children should know about an affair is that exposing it to the light of day (letting everyone know), helps give the unfaithful spouse a dose of reality. An affair thrives on illusion, and whatever a betrayed spouse can do to eliminate the illusion is justifiable. Mold doesn't grow well in sunlight.

Q. How honest should I be about the A? (they are 7 and under)

A. Tell your children as much as you can about their father's affair, and how it affects you. There are some counselors and lawyers that strongly disagree with me on this issue, but I have maintained that position for over 35 years without any evidence that children are hurt by it. They're hurt by the affair, not by accurate information regarding the affair. Just make sure that you don't combine accurate information with disrespectful judgments. For example, you can say that the OW has taken their father away from you, but you should not say that she is home-wrecker (or worse).

My basic approach to life is that radical honesty is valuable on many different dimensions. It keeps us out of trouble, it helps others understand us, and it helps others avoid the same mistakes we have made. Letting your children know the details of your husband's affair would help them in all three areas.

The more your children know about your husband's affair, the more careful he will be to avoid them in the future.

The more your children know about his affair, the more they will understand what you are going through in your recovery (by the way, you are doing very well -- keep up the good work!).

Being radically honest about your husband's affair with your children would also help them avoid affairs themselves. How it happened and how could it have been prevented is a great object lesson for children. I learned that I was vulnerable for an affair when I learned about my grandfather's affairs. The extraordinary precautions I've taken were directly related to what I learned about him.

It's the approach I've always taken, and while it's difficult, especially for the WS, there's much more upside to it than downside.

The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.

I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.

The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.

This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that
will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted.

An analysis of the wayward spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.

After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts here
as your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.

<snip unrelated>

Infidelity is not something that can be swept under the rug. While those who have affairs want to forget about it and move on, those who are betrayed must take very specific steps before they can fully recover. In your case, those steps have not been taken, and as a result, your fear persists. I will send you a complimentary copy of my book, "Surviving an Affair," if you send me your address. It will describe these two steps to you and provide you with a roadmap toward full recovery. But the path will require full disclosure of all details.

Best wishes,

Willard F. Harley, Jr.

I'm not sure why this whole thread has diverted to the subject of publicly exposing my wife for an affair that is over.

Does anyone in this kind of situation ever come back around?
I'm really afraid my marriage is a lost cause, but I'm not willing to give up.
I keep fighting for our marriage in every possible way, but she does nothing recipricol.

Any chance or hope that someone like this might come back around?

I really hope, yes, there's hope.

What about exposure of an affair that took place years earlier and is now ended but recently revealed? I feel that the children, close relatives, close friends, and the lover's spouse should be informed. Granted, it's embarrassing to admit an affair, but publicly admitting failure is usually the first step toward redemption.

As you probably already know, I'm a strong advocate of honesty and openness in marriage. I call it transparency -- letting your spouse know everything about you, especially your faults. But should that level of openness carry into the public arena? I believe that it should in cases of extreme irresponsibility, and that certainly includes infidelity. When you have done something very hurtful to someone else, others should know about it. Such exposure helps prevent a recurrence of the offense. Your closest friends and relatives will be keeping an eye on you -- holding you accountable.

In my experience with thousands of couples who struggle with the fallout of infidelity, exposure has been the single most important first step toward recovery. It not only helps end the affair, but it also provides support to the betrayed spouse, giving him or her stamina to hold out for ultimate marital recovery.

need Step 2... how to create (or re-create) a romantic relationship between my wife & me.

That's what I came on this forum asking. Is there a chance this can return?

To markos:

I have the app now. But I can only pull up 1 program from Jan 30. I tried logging in, but that's still all I get.

Of course. She's cake eating which is very NORMAL for a wayward spouse. She is getting some needs met by the OM (currently - and I assure you of this) and some needs met by you.