After much consideration about what this may or may not accomplish - I decided to get on this site and tell you all my side of the story - or the missing half.<P>I am Tired Lady's husband. I am the "betrayer". I am also the OM to Mia. Well, correction. I was the OM to Mia until she broke it off with me. Told me the wife deserved better. Told me she deserved better. Told me that in some great moment of strength and courage for her, she was finally doing the "right" thing. Do I miss her? Oh, yes. Terribly. This was no fantasy. I do love her.<P>My wife has been quite honest here about her part of this mess we are in. She racked up bills for which I now have to pay - $40K folks. It's only money - not happiness? Heck, my paycheck isn't enough to pay all the bills. And she won't work to help "fix" the mess she made for us. Did I have an affair because of this - NO! I found this out long after I had my affair. <P>I thought I was doing the right thing by telling her what I had done. It was the worst thing - being honest that is. She has never, ever let me forget what I did. I tried and tried until I was just exhausted to get her to go to counseling with me. For years. She never thought our marriage was bad. Why would she? While I was out busting my butt making a decent living for her and the kids, she was out doing her stuff, spending money (that we don't have)not cleaning the house, not cooking meals for the family, etc. No, I'm not the slave driver that this sounds like. I am a good man, who had a wife and kids at home and the only thing I expected and wanted was a clean house, and a family meal together, and my wife to make me feel important to her. Believe me when I say that life for us changed right after I slipped that ring on her finger! It was a progressive downhill from there. <P>So here we are, 15 years later, and at the lowest pit of my life I met a person who thinks I'm worth something other than a paycheck. Even after the discovery of this affair, my wife has done virtually nothing to make things better - in fact she has driven a bigger wedge between us. <P>I know she will read this as I have already told her I would be putting my side of this thing out here for you to read. I will not regret my involvment with Mia. She is a warm hearted woman who, like me, made a very human mistake. Every man wants, needs, and desires to feel loved in his relationship with his spouse. By my wife's own admission, I did not feel this way with her. I don't feel this way now. I believe there comes a time when we, as adults, must realize when we have exhausted all measures in salvaging our marriages. I can say, without reservation I have done that - for years. <P>I do appreciate all the insight and help you have been giving "Tired Lady". She needs to see that what you all have been trying to say to her is the very same things she has been told by me, on several occasions. Maybe hearing these same issues from "unbiased" people help her to see that my concerns have been real.<P>Thanks for listening to my ramblings.

I understand your frustration, but it still didn't give you the right to hurt someone as we all know affairs do!<P>If you didn't like it at home, and were sooo unhappy, then why didn't you do the proper thing, and file for divorce BEFORE you found someone else?<P>gmc900

First, welcome EM!<P>You sound exactly like my H, or rather like my H did when he had an affair. Tweleve years later, I had one of my own, so I understand this thing from both sides- unfortunately.<P>I have written to your W several times. I understand her pain, just as I understand yours.<P>I am touched by your story. As I said, it resembles our story. I am very much like your W. When I see it in print I am embarrassed to admit it. I racked up bills that weren't quite so high, but there nonetheless, I never have been a good housekeeper, and those things mattered to my H. However, as gmc says, it doesn't mean you (or my H) should have had an affair. But I'll tell you something: when it happened to me, even all these years later, I suddenly understood how someone could be brought to that point. <P>I have nothing to tell you to make things better for you and your W, but wanted you to know that I read this, that I care, and that I hope you and TL can find some common ground upon which to build what's left of your life together. Point is: when you have kids together, you will have a life together FOREVER. Something has to be worked out so you both don't go insane, or cause your children more pain than they've had already.<P>Best wishes as you navigate this difficult road. <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

Hi Exhausted Man -<P>Welcome to MB...I am very glad that you have come here and I think that it is very beneficial to get both "sides" of the story in a marriage....<P>I have tried to talk with Tired Lady and I do understand all that you are saying.<P>I have felt that you are an honorable man who reached a breaking point as is the same in some cases when infidelity occurred.<P>I do not fully understand TL's actions throughout the marriage and I know that this anger, pain and bitterness is not healthy for either one of you or the children.<P>I have encouraged her to stay with counseling and I REALLY hope that she will...there's quite a bit to work on.<P>May I ask you something? You don't have to answer.....<P>I know that with TL's past and current behavior - you have no inkling to recommit to this marriage....<P>If, however, she were to continue counseling and help pay off HER debt and begin to show you the love and respect that you have been without for so long, do you feel that you can see a possibility of attempting a rebuilding of the marriage?<P>The affair was wrong...I will never say that such a devastatingly hurtful and deceitful action is ever deserved. It is not!!!! I do however think that looking at and working on the reasons for it happening are the more important issues at stake.....No one is above making a bad choice. Yes, it was a bad choice because you were not honest and aboveboard with what you did.<P>I do know that people need love, attention and to feel valued.....lack of such things can make even the most moral people do immoral things.<P>Hugs and Prayers for you,<P>Sheba

Hey, I will be the first one to admit that there are two sides to every story. When my H had his affair, he couldn't blame a messy house, as he has pointed out many times in counselling that at times I am TOO fussy with my housekeeping. When I would ask him to take his shoes off after dragging mud throughout the house, he took offense to that. He couldn't complain about his dinner not being made every night, nor could he accuse me of racking up any debts whatsoever. (I don't use a credit card for any purchases.) His complaint about me was that I was a fussy *****, although there never had been a complaint when he wanted to give a "tour" of our home to friends and strangers alike. He always took at least half of the credit when anyone commented on how lovely our home was.<P>My BIL, who also had an affair about 17 years back, used this excuse. He just got tired of "competing" with the perfect wife, so he had no choice but to seek out another woman for comfort.<P>My point is this. If you have been married for length of time that you were, why did you pick this particular time to realize that things were just too much to handle? I am not saying that what you have written is not truthful, but sometimes the betrayer is looking for justification for his wrongdoings. Just my thoughts on the subject. Good Luck.<P>------------------<BR><BR>SUCCESS STORY<P>

Exhausted Man,<P>Thank you for posting. I lurk a lot here but rarely post. I feel very much like you do about my husband. I know that this point of view is very painful for the other posters and, typically, NOT well received. <P>I too tried for years to fix my marriage. I told my husband how unhappy I was before having an affair and that I felt that the "marriage contract" was already broken. <P>To those who say, "get a divorce first," I think my affair was a last ditch effort at saving my marriage and avoiding divorce. As it stands now, it didn't work. Oh, my husband wants to stay married but has been unwilling to change to meet my needs. The only changes he has made are the ones that were relatively easy or that HE wanted to make anyway that also benefitted him.<P>I am writing this as a warning to those who insist on blaming their spouses complaints on a need to justify their affairs. That may not be the case. I do not have an OM and am not going through any sort of withdrawal, but my marriage is still in trouble. My view of my husband did not magically get rosy after the affair. This is because there WERE serious problems before the affair and they are still there.<P>For those people who are in this scenario, it is horribly painful for both parties because the two people still love each other. However, one of them feels literally driven out of the marriage by the other. I love my husband but, at this time, we are not living together because he just doesn't see how he drives me away. I've recently begun to accept that he may never see it.<P>I hope this helps someone and I apologize for the pain it may cause some of you. I think if more "betrayers" (especially male ones) posted, you'd hear this point of view more often. I also think it is reason some of you "betrayed" are made to feel like the "betrayer" by your spouses. I felt deeply hurt and betrayed by my husband before the affair.<P>Exhausted Man, please keep posting, this forum is far too lop-sided to be of much help to the so-called "unrepentant" betrayers. And I do think that your view is VERY typical especially for men (I'm an exception). I suppose, deep inside, I really want to keep my marriage but I don't know what else to do. Maybe if more of us unrepentant types voiced our sides of the story we could all come to more even-handed solutions.<P>A/S<BR>

Thanks for all the replies. First of all I am not justifing my affair. I know that two wrongs do not make a right. For years (even by my wifes admissions here) I tried to get her to go to counseling. She never thought we had problems big enough to seek a counselor. Thought I was making a "big deal" of our problems. <P>I have read several topics from men who have wives who cheated on them. They are hurt and frustrated. I have felt this frustration in a different way. I've been in a marriage that has not made me feel like I was an important link in the partnership. I agree that having an affair was not the "right" choice to make. I've said this to my wife and I'll say it here...my dog got more affection and attention than I did.<P>I am a hard working, good man. I am a very involved father. I wanted to feel like I was more than just a piece of furniture in the house. I feel I was taken for granted. <P>Sheba asked if my wife accepts her debt, gets a job, pays for it, and shows me love and respect would it change things? I cannot honestly say yes. She feels nothing but contempt & anger towards me. Prior to the affair, I may as well have been invisible. I was good enough to provide for the family and afford her to stay at home, but not good enough for anything else. So why now? Because Mia showed me I was valued as a human being, she now wants to figure things out? 15 years later? I never realized how hurt, frustrated and lonely I have been all these years.

Hi, EM<BR> I'm glad you've come here for help. I'm the betrayed in our marriage, and I've come down a little hard on your wife, even as I continue to struggle with my own issues.<P> In a lot of ways, I guess I'm as guilty of some things as your wife. I'm not a good housekeeper, I have spent money that I shouldn't have spent (H did, too, though), etc. However, in retrospect, a lot of this was in reaction to the problems in our marriage--starting after he suddenly changed in his behavior toward me. I now believe that this was when he started cheating on me.<BR>That doesn't make my behavior right, by any means, but I'm starting to understand that this behavior was the result of pent-up resentment over his treatment of me.<P> I understand that you've tried to get her to meet your needs for years. But, I do have a question for you. <B>HOW</B> have you tried to get her to change her ways? Have you come in and chewed her out because the house was dirty or supper wasn't on the table? Have you complained about everything she's ever bought for herself? This may or may not be the way you've approached the problems, but I can tell you from experience that an unhappy wife will grow to not care about pleasing her husband, even though she doesn't realize that's how she feels.<P> One of the things that I used to resent the most about my H is the fact that if we were going somewhere, and I asked him to stop and buy me a 35-cent coke (I'm a coke-a-holic), he would refuse and b**** and complain about it. It got to the point where the only way I could get a Coke would be if one of the kids asked him for one. Now, a Coke is a small thing, but why did he so bitterly resent getting it for me? I've never figured that one out, and he has long since stopped being so unreasonable about it. But, it just sort of stings to this day.<P> BTW, I never spent BIG money on stuff or got us into real debt, but I still spent money I shouldn't have spent. But, this didn't start until <B>after</B> he suddenly decided that I was wasting all <B>his</B> money. Up until then, I had handled all our money, and we were relatively debt-free, although we didn't have much money for "playing." I was very proud of myself for doing things like paying a little extra on washer/dryer payments to get them paid off sooner and saving on interest, making clothes for myself and our children to save money, canning/freezing vegetables to save on groceries, etc. And, all of a sudden, I was wasting money? Anyway, I finally realized that my spending usually happened due to resentment of his treatment of me.<P> So, look inside yourself, EM. You two didn't get in this mess solely because of your wife's behavior. I wouldn't be surprised if her behavior wasn't due to unhappiness on her part.<P> Yes, she's bitter and angry. I've come to the realization that I've been bitter and angry for <B>over 13 years</B>...because my H had a one-night stand with a slut who passed on an STD, which he then brought home to me and then <B>lied</B> to me about for all that time. He finally did admit to that, but right now, I'm struggling mightily with the belief that he is still lying to me, even though he seems to realize how badly he's treated me over the years.<P>As for me, well, I'm still not a terrific housekeeper, but I'm trying. It's really hard to get everything together when I'm still dealing with depression, which tends to make me sort of "shut down." Also, your wife may have been depressed for all those years.<P>And, one more thing, EM. You seem to feel that you were "entitled" to have an affair. You weren't--no matter what your wife did or didn't do.<P>That being said, I think you should try to understand your wife's feelings and have compassion (not pity) for her. At this point, I don't think she is able to meet your needs, but if you honestly try to meet her needs, she may eventually be able to reciprocate in kind.<P>Good wishes to both you and Tired Lady.<BR>

Sweetpea:<P>Thank you for your response. It's a bit trying to come home after a 16 hour day, and see that wife has been out all day, with her friends and social activities and left the kids to fend for themselves for dinner or the house is a complete disaster. No, I don't walk in the house and "chew her butt out". I do ask her why the dishes have been sitting in the same "soapy water" for a couple of days (we do have a dishwasher) or why there's several inches of dust on the furniture. Her response to me is - "I'm too busy with volunteer activities...." "I hate housework". Dammn, I HATE working 16 hour days too, but that's how I provide for my family. Not feeling very appreciated, can you tell?<P>Wife had asked me to support her in her quest to lose weight. So I did. I went with her to Weight Watchers. We'd sign her up, she'd attend ONE time and then it'd be all over. No willpower I guess. A few months later, she'd ask again for support. I would again repeat the same scenario as above. I did this 4 times. All four times were different sign ups. All four times she went once or twice and quit. I have supported her with whatever she wanted to do. I put her though school to get her degree. We had an agreement years ago when we first got married she would return to work and use that degree once the kids were in junior high. NEVER HAPPENED. I really need her to help pay off the extreme debt she has created for us. She handled all the finances up until a few months ago. Obviously, not very well. I am resenting that I have to pay for the mess she's created. It would be one thing if there was something concrete to show for all this money being spent - but there isn't. Nothing. She can't even tell me where all this money went.<P>One more thing. I have never made reference to feeling entitled to having an affair. Never. Nor do I pity my wife. My wife made some bad choices about how to participate in our marriage just as I made some bad choices in how to deal with the situation. At this point in our lives, I want to be able to part company amicably. We will always have our kids to communicate with. We will always have some sort of "relationship". I am not happy. She is not happy.

I just want to thank you again (so much!) for posting and explaining things. You have no idea how much I am like your wife. It makes me sick when I read what you write, but it opens my eyes too. I have never been as bitter as she is, and I have always worked outside the home, but the other things that you've mentioned ring true for me. <P>I think you're sincere and I understand why you did what you did, and I don't think you ever said it was the right thing to do. <P>Remember what I said above, you will have to find a way to deal with TL throughout the rest of your life. She has a responsibility too, but I think you'll have to be the one to initiate a good relationship.<P>You have opened my eyes... bet you didn't expect to hear that from anyone today, huh??<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

And so why haven't you filed? What's keeping you there?<P>Just curious.

What my husband has written is corrent - I can't argue with or deny any of it. <P>Sheba helped me with writing him a letter (which he read) after answering her many, many, personal questions. I'm being honest - I gave her nothing to work with. I did take advantage of my H. I took and took and gave nothing back. Sheba has my permission to acknowledge all this if she wants. My H knows she helped me with this letter. Things will not change for the better for us. I am unwilling and unable to look past his affair - even though I know I contributed to that happening. It's so sad to realize that we both know the marriage has been "dead" for years and have not done anything to move forward with our lives.<P>Sorry this has been such a depressing post for us and for everyone reading it.

Exhausted,<BR>So why didn't you just tell her you were going to leave unless she got a job?

A compliment I guess from New Beginning! Thank you. I was beginning to think the man's point of view is worthless here. So, thank you again.<P>Maya - I have been out of the house at my brother's house for a few weeks, although I do go "home" to see my children daily. I am committed to not alienating, hurting, or not providing for my kids wellbeing. I have thought a great deal about this issue. I cannot be an effective father when I'm so miserable in a marriage that is in theory "only on paper". The relationship my kids have observed between my wife and I is not healthy, nor "normal". We really did exist as "roommates". I will probably be the one to "file", however, as with other decisions this important, I have offered my wife an opportunity to sit down and discuss what would work best for both of us (apart) She hasn't indicated a response of any kind to me as of yet.<P>

Maybe you and TL are caught in one vicious circle.<P>I am no Martha Stewart, but I do keep things reasonably together. My H is so into recreation, he wouldn't have supported nice things and the home as our castle idea, anyway. He is Mr. efficient, though and he doesn't like my slow inefficient style of operation. Actually I am not fond of it either. My kitchen is cleaned. My bathroom is clean. My bills are paid. My children eat. The clothes are clean (hardly ever all folded and in drawers, however). I have worked full time most of marriage, part time now. My H has always made lions share of money, but never acted like it.<P>I have been excruciatingly nice to everyone my whole life. I can't seem to help myself. I have truly loved and respected my H thoughout our marriage, even in rough patches.<P>However, if there was one thorn, it was I had the idea that my H's not really love, but maybe admiration was based on how efficient I was (and I'm not). He cleans like a tornado (when inclined), I am more like a deer in the headlights bumbling about. If you look at his garage and closet, however, he is no neat freak.<P>I felt that he was withholding something from me based on something a maid could do, which made me feel resentful (whether or not I should have). So I can identify to how TL may have felt. I can also identify how you felt.<P>I think my H and I have far better skills now and do not misinterpret each other as easily. <P>Your wife can not change her past neglect. You can not change your affair. Neither were right. TL can try to change the present. You can let the past go and let her. You can let go of Mia as a treasured memory and make your marriage work if that is what you choose to do.<P>Now that you have explored the dynamics of the past, you both have to grieve your losses and let it go if you want to move on in your marriage. Just sticking it out is not good enough...you need to heal...which means you need to move toward healing.<P>All the best in your journey.<P><P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Nellie1 - I have never "threatened" my wife with leaving her because of her refusal to participate in paying of the debt she incurred. Rather, I would have appreciated an honest desire on her part to accept the responsibility and get a job on her own.

Hello EM! Reading your story sounds too much of what can happen in my marriage. H cheated before we were married. I was still bitter after I went through with the wedding and this sight has helped a lot! But now, I am feeling as if we are not a team in this marriage. I do not enjoy housework, my credit is shot to hell and I don't spend quality time with the kids like he say's I should. He feels taken for granted and so do I. I may not clean the way he would like, but I make sure our house and our kids has everything it/they need. I do the food shopping, I buy the clothing (he goes half only when it is MAJOR shopping), I do the cooking, I make sure the house has all the necessaties(sp?) it needs. I work too, but am still expected to come home cook dinner everynight and help with the kids. I have no problem with that, but I need to feel wanted, appreciated and loved. H is a big conflict avoider so that means whenever something is wrong we will go days without speaking until he approaches me for sex or unless I say we need to talk it out. But talking always ends up with him screaming at me, on the defensive and it gets us no where. I suggested counseling, but NOW i am so tired of being the one that tries to attempt to save this marriage that I have no desire to try counseling. He doesn't see things as being bad, or if he does he says that I am the one that has the problem so I should fix it! Ain't that a B---h! Now someone else is making me feel wanted, loved and desirable and it is scary to think that I am in the position that I am in. Now I see how easy it was for my H to stray. When your emotional needs are not being met by your spouse it makes it easier for someone else to step in and give you what you have been needing! Nothing sexual has happened but, just knowing that I can do it at any point tells me that I need to make some major decisions and fast. I do love my H, but now my resentment comes from him being so blind, or not caring enough about what happens to us. I feel like we are married legally only. When he makes major decisions that effect us as a family, I am the last to know. And sometimes his family or friends will tell me what is planning to do! No communication, no emotions, seems hopeless at times. EM please continue to come to this sight if only just to vent.

Exhausted,<BR>I wasn't implying that you had threatened her - but I think it would have been far better if it was that important to you to tell her that you felt strongly enough about it that you would leave if she didn't get a job.<P>I have to wonder if her side of the story relative to getting a job would be any different. My H said that one of the things he didn't like about me was that I "lied" because I said I would go back to work full-time when the kids were older and I "never did". I have always worked at least part-time up until the birth of our sixth child, and our youngest is only 3 - when his affair started she was still two. Yet he never mentioned to me that he wanted me to go back to work while he was still here, but after he left for the OW he decided my not working was an issue. So he almost got his way - I have now been forced to go back to work half-time, while trying to raise six kids on my own.

Nellie1 - I'll answer your question. My side of the story doesn't even deviate from what my H has said here. Sheba will confirm this. He repeatedly reminded me of our "agreement" to return to work once the kids were in jr. hi. I was so used to not working, doing my own thing, that I didn't want to go back to work. I still dont. I know once we are divorced that I will have to return to the workplace, but I won't like it. I hope this answers your question.

I think lots of relationship problems can be traced to two sources. Believe me I have made both these mistakes more times than I care to admit. But with some counseling and soul searching I'm trying to get better. Anyway, my little theory of relationship problems boils down to these two, I believe destructive, habits:<P>Putting expectations on someone else that they do not put on themselves.<P>And,<P>Failing to take responsibility for our own actions and expectations.<P>The second one is the most sinister because it is the hardest to identify. I work a lot of 12 to 16 hours days too. But in the end of the day, that was and is MY choice. I do it because I want to and because I think it's best. My ex never made me do it, and if I had stopped she couldn't make me start.<P>She also blamed me for her affair and decision to leave the relationship. (#1) But this also is not possible. She did those things, not me. They reflect on her, where she was at, and what she wanted. I did nothing to make her want those things or be where she was at. And I certainly couldn't have helped her make her decision. Heck, I didn't even know about it until it was all over.<P>Exhausted, I don't believe it is fair for you to attribute your affair to actions taken by your wife. I agree that those issues constituted real problems that needed to be resolved, but I can't actually believe you could have been persuaded to take an action that was totally unrelated and not destined to help based on those issues. You can't fix a bucket with water. You are smarter than that. Something else was going on. And if I'm going to be a private investigator, I am going to look for motives with the person who committed the crime.<P>TL obviously has her own issues. But I don't really think it is fair for you to be setting standards in terms of house cleanliness and dinner. If these were her responsibility, then she really has final say as to how it is done. You know the old saying, "you can either tell me what to do or how to do it, but not both." If the house isn't clean enough for you, then either you clean it or move out. You are the one who wants it clean after all.<P>$40,000 in debt? OK, I'm with you all the way on that one.<P>Did she take advantage of you? Maybe. Perhaps she was also ungrateful. This happens to everyone. Gifts we receive become entitlements in our minds in no time at all, it seems. But I don't believe for one minute you ever contributed one thing to the marriage you would not have anyway. These things came from within you. I know because I did the same thing. Exactly the same thing as you only the end was the other way around. But when I look back on it, I realize it could have been any woman in the world and I would have done things exactly the same, because it came from me. It's just who I am and that is just what I would have done. And I did them by my own choice. I could have stopped at any time if I felt so inclined. That also, unfortunately, goes for all the bad things I did too. And yuck there were lots of those.<P>So, lets all stop pointing fingers. The only person we ever really have to blame is ourselves.<BR>