I appreciate all your opinions. I'm grateful to my wife for verifying what I've been saying. <P>Nonpulsed - Thanks for a response from a "guy". My wife's actions didn't drive me to being with Mia. I admit I did that all on my own. No one pushing me in that direction, just me. I regret hurting my wife as I did. But I cannot salvage any relationship on my own. Neither can she.

It's not what we do, its the meaning that our spouses give to our actions (or lack thereof) that matters. <P>Sometimes it feels like we can't win no matter what we do. And we can't. If we work long hours but make a good living, they resent us for that. If we stay home, they resent us for that. It really doesn't matter how much you earn or how clean your house is. If Tired Lady's house was filthy but her husband felt loved, he wouldn't have minded the mess at all. <P>Exhausted, the only thing I would say to you is that you need to find forgiveness. It's more obvious to say that TL needs to stop beating you up over your affair. But you are just as guilty because you won't let go of your resentments over the past.

Well, color me confused here, but if you BOTH want out o' the marriage THEN WHAT ARE WE DOING HERE?<P>Doesn't this seem odd to anyone else but me?????<P>She can't forgive, he can't stand to be there ... and neither one wants to give an inch.<P>Look at me thinking to clearly on someone else's problem .... but I can't get my own house straight .... drinks anyone?

Hi EM<P>Your POST inspired me to write my view. I felt the exact same way you did for years but it was my W who had the affair. I work fulltime and W stays home to raise our two girls. I do 90% of all the cooking and 50% of all household chores. My needs were not being met although my W felt they were and same goes the other way. I thought by doing the cooking and helping with the cleaning that I was meeting my W needs. She couldn't care less if I cooked, made no difference to her. I found out afterwards that she prefers me to do just comb her hair and make her feel special over me doing anything else. W also realized that I couldn't care less about how clean the house was or if diner was made, I would rather have her feed my ego of telling me what a great husband and father I am. I never realized the importance of actually knowing what my W needs are and I am sure they will change over time. I always felt I was being taken advantage of by helping so much because she never acknowledge what a good person I was and I never acknowledge how special she was.<P>Take Care

Animac - very true. It's not about a clean house or a family dinner. It's all about feeling like an inanimate object in my own home. It's all about my value as a husband was as the "direct deposit" into the bank account. <P>Maya - I'm moving towards filing for a divorce. We've both reached that point. I have seen an attorney and my wife knows of this. <P>Toronto - I would have liked to have been shown the slightest bit of caring years ago. It's true that the things that seem so insignificant as signs of affection are sometimes the most important.

No finger pointing here, just a few points to ponder;<P><B>I thought I was doing the right thing by telling her what I had done. It was the worst thing - being honest that is.</B><BR>You did do the right thing. Without honesty ANY relationship cannot survive squat.<P><B>She has never, ever let me forget what I did.</B><BR>Totally wrong on her part.<P><B>I will not regret my involvment with Mia. She is a warm hearted woman who, like me, made a very human mistake.</B><BR>No regret? So it was okay? Maybe having friendship with her (but not without including your Wife) MIGHT have been okay, but once you saw where it was going, you should have dropped it immediately.<P><B>It's a bit trying to come home after a 16 hour day</B><BR>Why so much work? Perhaps if you were at home more, she would have been at home more and given more attention to you. Still not an excuse for her behavior though.<P>Yes it takes two for any relationship to work, just as it takes two (most of the time) to make a relationship crumble.<P>Regardless of how you feel right now (try to be totally objective here and don't think it wouldn't/can't work) what would be the absolute best thing to happen?<P>For you to be in love with your wife, for her to be in love with you and for you both to WANT and to actually meet each others needs and have a loving family with the children?<BR>Doesn't this seem ideal?<BR>Yes or no?<P>Before you jump onto the divorce road, perhaps you both need to sit down without slamming/hating/accusing each other, discuss this. Perhaps set a time frame to actually give the marriage a try. If you both can't agree to it, then maybe it isn't possible to work it out, however, I believe you BOTH have to give a shot, even if it is just discussing the possibility of a reconciliation.<P>Thoughts?<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

Nonplused:<P>You're a helluva perceptive (and smart) guy. <P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Lone Star (edited November 10, 1999).]

EM, I'm sorry; I didn't mean to imply that you said you felt entitled to an affair--that's just the feeling I got, and I admit that I'm somewhat overly-sensitive to that implication, since my H initially told me that it was my fault he slept with another woman.<P>It seems to me that neither you nor your wife is willing to do anything to save your marriage. All I have to say is that you are both thinking only of yourselves and forgetting about some very important people--your children.<P>Yeah, I know the old argument that it's better for kids if their parents divorce than to stay in an unhappy marriage. However, the only reason your marriage will stay unhappy is because neither one of you will do anything about it! So, what kind of message are your kids getting? Are they learning that if you aren't happy--hey, just go look elsewhere! Are they learning that if someone makes a bad mistake, you should never, ever forgive them? Are they learning anything about love and commitment? Are they learning that anything worth having is worth fighting for?<P>Tired Lady,<BR> WHY aren't you willing to do what it takes to save your marriage? OK, you say you don't want to get a job. Well, is that more important than trying to build a loving relationship with your children's father? Are the social activities more important than your family? You don't have to change everything overnight. Just take babysteps. Get in the habit of doing a little housework everyday. If necessary, hire somebody on a one-time basis to help you get the whole house cleaned up and keep it that way. Make sure your kids pull their weight around the house, too. Do one nice thing for your husband everyday. Find something that you appreciate about him and let him know it.<P>Yes, we <B>KNOW</B> you are hurting; we <B>ALL</B> are. Don't forget that I was in your shoes only last year; my H has done a complete turnaround, even though there are still some major issues to get through. And, I do agree with your H; you got yourself into a financial pickle and you need to do something to ease the financial burden on him. Try to put Mia out of your mind; she is not the cause of your problems.<P>EM, I believe that my H was "in love" with another woman last year--maybe still has feelings for her. He refuses to admit to this, and I was never able to prove it. However, I <B>know</B> that something went on between them. I do believe that he called off the relationship (probably temporarilty) upon confrontation--out of fear of being caught. We, too, are in a financial bind--because we opened a new business without nearly the money we needed to start it. This business is his "dream." I was doing something I wanted to do (working from home), and starting to do pretty well at it; but, I gave it up to help him. Yes, I am somewhat resentful (giving up so much, only to have him screw around on me ), but I remind myself everyday that I did this because I love him and that's what matters.<BR> So, if you should decide to work on your marriage, I would like to suggest something to you. Do one nice thing for your wife everyday. Let her know when you appreciate something she has done. Instead of focusing on what she hasn't done for you, make a list of the things you do appreciate about her. And, EM, don't be so concerned with her weight. When she feels better about herself, she'll be in a better frame of mind to decide to lose the weight. It's possible that she turned to food due to her unhappiness--that's one of my hangups, eating when I'm depressed. I've lost some, but it's slow going because I'm still depressed about the continuing lies in my marriage.<P>Both of you just need to stop demanding so much of each other and start giving.<BR>

Chris: You seem like a very level headed person. I sound like a broken record here but working 16 hour days is not by choice. In my business there are slow periods and very busy ones. It's not ALWAYS like that. It is my job, my responsibility and it supports the family. Now, on the other hand, volunteer stuff is great - I admired her participation while the kids were in grade school. Now they are both in junior high and high school respectively, yet my wife still volunteers for the grade school (which neither of our kids attend any longer???) Remember when I said we had discussed her using the degree she earned to go back to work and help with this financial burden once the youngest was in junior high. That was 2 years ago. She has flat out refused to go to work nor help with the debt. Money is not the only issue. Many, many other things.<P>You honestly think I haven't given this my best shot - believe me, I've been in these tired old shoes for several years. Talking to my wife, over, and over, until I'm blue in the face about all our problems. What could I do to help out more? Nothing she would tell me. I have spent many, many nights being both mom and dad to the kids while she was out with her social buddies. <P>You asked me what the best thing would be? Well we all would say that a LOVING, home with both parents who LOVE each other is the best. This is not the case her. My wife does not love me. She has told me that not just recently, but several times over the past few years. I am not "in love" with her.<P>Sweetpea - look past the weight issue? Extremely difficult to do when I have tried so hard to support her when she did want to lose weight. 100 + pounds is a heck of alot to lose - I know. It took years to gain that weight. But I never said anything unkind about it. She knows that. I offered to help her. I cannot drag her to do this. She needs to want to do it for herself. <P>Maybe we are just, or have been for many years, incompatible.

EM and TL,<P>Your names fit you. You are sick and tired of trying. Okay, so now what will you do?<P>It seems like both of you want permission to let go of your marriage, let go, and to stop carrying the hurt around. <P>EM,<P>Okay. Give up. It's okay, you've tried and tried, and nothing seems to ever go forward. You work your a** off to support your family and your W doesn't appreciate it, nor does she pull her weight around the house, take care of your children, or keep her promises (by not getting a job when the youngest was in Jr. High). It's time to throw in the towel.<P>TL, <P>Okay, you give up too. It's okay, you've tried and tried, and nothing seems to ever go forward. Your H is never home, always working, doesn't pay attention to you and acts like he's doing you a favor. He doesn't appreciate you, won't help you with your weight gain (and in fact, makes things worse) and can't keep his promises (by having an affair). It's time to throw in the towel.<P>Okay, so do you guys feel better? <P>My God, I can see both sides of this thing. Can you?<P>You both have a choice to make now. You're both HERE, for one thing. Why? I assume it's to marriage build. Is that so? <P>Nothing is ever one-sided, and boy! do you guys prove that theory. <P>I am so sorry you BOTH are having to go through this. Awful! <P>Please take care of yourselves, if not each other. <BR><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

It's taken me a while to absorb everything that my H has written and all your responses. Seeing what he wrote, you know, in writing really brought the truth out in the open. I wish I could sit here and say that what he wrote was an exaggeration of the truth. But sadly, it's not. He was quite honest about how he DID try for YEARS to get me to acknowledge a problem in our marriage and how I turned a blind eye to it all. I was and still am very absorbed in all my other activities. I hate saying this but I can see how my ignorance was a contributing factor to his affair. I don't like what he did, nor do I think it was right, but I didn't give him any indication at all that I would meet him at least halfway on all his offers to go to counseling. So obviously, he gave up asking, trying, etc. because I made no effort at all.<P>I think, no, I hope that everyone who reads this post will see and understand that my H was, and still is a good man, a good father, and that I did fail him by not meeting probably most if not all of his needs. I admit to this to late though. I know I've killed any love left he may have had for me over the past few years. But I am determined to at least remain as good of a joint parent with him for the kids sake. We make better parents than we do a married couple.<P>I know I need to go to counseling alone. I have many unresolved issues that I have been unwilling to let my H help me with. I chose to sweep everything under the carpet just assuming that my H would just "exist" in the marriage as he had been. He was crying out for some sort of sign of love and affection from me and I didn't bother. <P>I want him to be happy. I want to move on and be happy. We just can't do it with each other.<P>Thanks for all your love and support here! You guys are terrific.

Well, finally you see what I've been talking about. We, the Tired Lady and I have a very long road ahead to get both our lives to move forward for our kids sake. She is so right in saying that we will be better parents than a married couple.

Exhausted Man: I could give you a laundry list of all the problems my spouse and I were having since we first married, but no matter how much I tried to talk with him, get counseling (which at that time he refused to go), force him to take trips with just me or with the kids, he still didn't get the picture until after I told him I was going to leave him a few years ago. I know as you do that it was still no excuse for doing what I did and I deeply regret it. I love my spouse very much and yes he is very hurt, (see my post "no reponse")but I did not reach this point by myself. I don't want my marriage to go under. I am doing everything I can to show him I love him. I too, have racked up bills and I am working to try and pay off those debts. I have even doubled up payments. I was just told(in so many words) by another friend on this site to continue to give to my spouse love and affection without expecting a return. So here I go. I will continue to forge ahead. I hope that things will work for you and TL whatever the outcome. My love and prayers to you and remember I am not here to judge you and I might not have all the answers or any, but I am a good listener. I know this site has been helpful for me.

Sobeit - <P>Thank you. TL's decision and mine is the best for both of us. We finally see things the same way. Right now, our main priority is to be the best parents to our kids.

Tired Lady and Exhausted Man,<P>I'm sorry to here that things have gotten where they are for you. I can see you both are in agreement as to the right course of action for right now. If I have any advice at all, it is my experience that at this point you are moving in to a period in your lives where absolutely anything can happen. The next few years will be a period of growth and a time to challenge your preset beliefs and behaviors. TL, I'm glad you are seeing a counselor, it helped me enormously.<P>I believe anything can and usually does happen. A mistake I made was to move the divorce along to quickly. It was at my ex's request that I did so, but having been through the process already I can say with some certainty a separation agreement accomplishes everything you need to for the next to 3 years anyway. After that the divorce is a formality. I know that I do not feel at all the same about many things today as I did even 6 months ago. 1 year for sure. And compared to 10 years ago, heck, I don't even recognize that person.<P>So, I guess my advice is if you feel it is necessary, proceed with an amicable separation and really focus on being good parents, as you both have dedicated to do. But I would advise against making decisions any faster than you have to. Two of three years from now, everything will be very clear to both of you. It may be exactly what you feel right now, but at least with a separation you have time to confirm it.<P>Lone Star,<P>Thanks. I always enjoy your posts as well.<BR>