Hi, <P>Stepping over from the d/d site because I have some questions that have been bugging me and need some input.<P>When a WS talks what do you see in their eyes?<P>Should what you see help determine how to respond or act?<P>Does it help to use it as a guide more than what they are saying?<P>Can you tell by their eyes if they are coming out of the fog?<P>Can you tell by their eyes if they are truly repentant?<P>I have heard so much in retoric from WS that his words carry little meaning with me. Yet I want to be able to have a better way to tell how he really feels. I do not want to be misled and want the truth. You see, often his actions don't match his words. <P>Ex: Says he wants to come home (said that 5 times before - still with OW), then goes to sleep with OW the 4 days later. The next day comes back to say he wants to come home. But now the eyes look human........ with a smile. <P>Am I reading to much into this? I want to find someway to see that part of H that OW can not manipulate.<P>Your thoughts please. <P>Thanks,<BR>L.<BR> <p>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited April 13, 2001).]

I wish I could help. But a friend of mine who has spent the past 25 years dealing with Chinese people told me to look straight into my wife's eyes and ask her point blank whatever I want to ask her. He said the eyes will tell everything. I didn't try it yet. Maybe my sensitivity is not good enough but that is the advice I got. So there may be something to what you say.

Dear Orchid,<P>Actions, actions, actions!!<P>My H has now twice literally gone down on his knees, looked deeply into my eyes, and swore he wanted me, wanted our marriage and wanted to repair things, and would do anything it took.<P>And then promptly went on yet another date with yet another woman met through his internet personals ad.<P>I know I have asked you this before...but have you talked to Steve Harley about this???<P>I really think you need his guidance if your H is starting to show signs of fog-thinning. Steve is a pretty good judge of where things are at, and he'll probably be able to tell you if it's safe to re-engage in a relationship with your H.<P>Heck, the next time you talk to your H about his coming home, ask HIM to talk to Steve. Steve will be happy to talk to him and then tell you if it's safe.<P>The last time I spoke with Steve, I told him of all the promises, the on-the-knees-tears-in-the-eyes protests that NOW he was committed...and Steve told me to run the other way. And it took exactly 24 hours for Steve to be proved right.<P>((hugs)) BR

Hmm.... Interesting comment BrRose. We did have a meeting with Steve Harley. We have our assignments but H did not want to do them at the time. <P>I would very much like to meet with Steve again, been trying to save up for it. Ok, I thought I was on to something here. OWs have so much influence on these men. Guess my controlling piece is still looking for something. Is that it?<P>For H it is getting to a deadline. A decision of some sort regarding his housing has to be made by EOM. He can not afford to stay where he is at. OW is pulling real hard. OW is saying "I will take you any way I can, just don't leave me." I am saying that I want the whole man, 100% dedicated to his family, looking after our needs and bringing value to us as a family. Is that a bit much? Maybe, but that is what I need. <P>The giver part of me says I am being selfish, but I know that my needs encompass my family's needs and I must protect that. So I stand here wondering how much longer this ride will go on. He just had that look of humanity in him the other night, like I was talking with a real person. It felt good. Maybe I am just wishing to hard. <P>Coming down to reality. Ready to face the truth. Maybe the eye's dont have it. I wish they did. <P>L.

Hmm, something to think about...<P>Here in NJ, an average lawyer runs about $200 an hour...and multiple that by 2 (a lawyer for each of you) and then think about how many hours those lawyers will have to work for you.<P>Steve Harley costs $95...and I'll betcha he can fix your marriage faster than your lawyers can dismantle it!<P>Do the math!!!<P>Its one of the most important decisions of your life...<P>My H stopped after about 4 sessions with Steve too. But I kept meeting with Steve - and it was money very well spent.<P>((hugs)) BR

Hi Br Rose,<P>You are right. I am trying to get to that point. Been saving my pennies (literally). H has put me in a major financial bind. <P>I have been using info here to carry me until I can meet with Steve. The new rate this year is $120.00 per visit. Just a few more pennies. <P>I know this is a wise investment, unfortunately, I can not just wish for a million dollars. This comment is based on a what H said that if he had a million dollars he would give it all to me. Nice thought but that doesn't pay the bills. <P>Moral: Money moves. ....<P>L.

Orchid,<P>As someone who let her H come home with out a plan or a no contact letter, don't do it. Twice I have let my H talk me into things without him doing anything. For recovery to begin there needs to be a Plan, there can be no recovery as long as there is contact, my H could never understand this concept.<P>Talk to Steve, give up something for the wk to get that $125. <P>I think of you as I walk aroung Singapore as there are orchids everywhere.

Hi Sing, <P>It is good to hear from you. How are you doing? <P>I know not to let him back without seeing action. His attempts to break up with OW (twice in person - ended up in her bed) & 6+times on the phone - ended up in her bed did not work. Those were futile attempts. H knows he must hate what is bad and love what is good. H can not wait for a reason from OW, he must do it for himself. He knows this. <P>He says he wants to get to that point ASAP, but his heart is hard. OW controls his heart, because he allows it. I did call him weak and pathetic earlier this week, he agreed. Funny what is an LB to most sometimes motivates him. Anyway, we are not changing our stand. My son and I have plans and are going on with our lives. We are preparing for the worse (D). <P>He is speaking better to me not with the hatred in his voice. He is angry that OW brings out that part of his personality. I told him that is the only way she is ensured control is if she can get him to hate me. <P>Wondering, is it possible to create an OW detector? Wouldn't that be great? <P>Til then, I will wonder if the eye's have it? <BR>L.<P>

Hey Orchid its me TRS under my NEW name-anyways my counselor always asked me if H would look at me eye to eye when talking-if he didn't it meant that he was guilty-hope this helps!!!

Orchid...<BR>The eyes have it here!!<P>The more desperation I saw in his eyes when he talked to me...the more I knew he was lying.<BR>When he came to me at a loss, with a defeated glaze over his eyes, he was telling the truth.<P>It was the I give up attitude that was the most truthful. When he was completly at a loss, and willing to accept whatever I said or did, and do whatever I needed, I could see that he was coming from a place of truth - but all this is in hindsight - at the time I was never really sure.<BR>He's home now, and his actions on a daily basis are what I go by.<BR>If you don't see defeat or hopelessness in him, I'd say it isn't time to open the door yet. He has to hit bottom first.<BR>When he does...don't worry, you'll know - at least I did.<P>JMHO<BR>Best of luck.

Hi White Dove and Sd,<P>I like the new name White Dove! I know a lady that has that as her last name. It is beautiful. <P>Thanks for both your posts. While it is not a 100% sure thing, I believe the eyes can tell more truth than words. OW has strong manipulation powers over my H. She controls his words (written & verbal), actions, and attitude. But it seems she can not control his eyes. <P>I have seen pain, glazed over blank stares, anger, sadness, confusion, disappointment, frustration, jealousy, sighes of relief and now a bit of happiness. This I feel is a truer gauge of measuring where they are while in the fog than their words. I have been reviewing all the events since d/d and find that while H had that glazed look or blank stare, I was not able to converse with him. The discussions that took place were often one-sided and usually ended up with me in tears and frustrated and him in anger or defeat. <P>I think this is a point that if we as BS's knew this at the beginning of our dealings with the WS's, it may help. For me I kept wanting to control to fix or help him because I knew of no other way. Yet, if I had known how to see better his condition and understand it, maybe just maybe, I might have done things a bit differently. <P>See I believe that those of us that are GIVERs in this situation make the mistake of at times 'trying to hard'. You know like shoving too much medicine or good food in someone's mouth. While it may be good for them, if they can't stomache it right now, then don't give it all to them. Piece it out in acceptable portions. <P>This is easier said than done. Maybe all of you already know this but for me (the slow and stubborn one) it was a lightbulb. I wish I had come to this realization sooner. <P>Don't really know where things are going with me yet. H's eyes are beginning to clear but not completely. His attitude is getting better also. I consider this positive signs but it is too early to tell. This time, I have stronger convictions to stand by. <P>L.<BR>

Ok, coming out of a very short hybernation since I did see the Oprah interview with A Frey last night.

I did notice something we spoke about here a long time ago. This thread was started by me back in 2001. It was about 1 1/2 years after d/d for me. A lot has happened since then. For some of you, this reading c/b intereseting. Some of the posters from this thread still post here.

In fact, here's another thread about the eye's of the WS: confused eyes

The reason for resurrecting this 'old thread' is because there is mass confusion on board here and with many others regarding both Scott and Amber....I am going to attempt to explain my POV again.

What I see different in them than the rest of normal society is in their eyes. No denying it for me. They both have that glazed, disconnected looks of the WS/OP. Saw it in my H and others. Can almost tell just walking into a store or a restaurant. Scott had it all during the trial. Amber still has it.

Saw it when Julia Roberts did the interview when she was the OW to her now H. She brazenly showed off that t-shirt she made poking fun at the MM's wife (her name is Vera)..... Title on the shirt when something like: A low Vera <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

NO one can hide the reflection of their current state of mind in their eyes. Last night both Oprah and some in her audience showed the emotional side of their feelings. Oprah asked Amber if she ever got mad or felt used..... Amber took a while to answer and her answer was at best weak. At the end of the interview Oprah did not look impressed.

I am not looking for something to down Amber on.... That's not my style but it is sooo plain to see...... No WS or OP can hide the A while it is running rampant in their souls. Amber still shows signs of it right now even in spite of all that has happened.

What do the eyes of the WS / OP show?

So what do you think others would think of the OP in your individual cases? Think they would support or lend approval if the OP did what Amber is doing/has done? If the OP claimed t/b a victim instead of an accomplice, kept that look of the OP in their eyes, moved on with OP tactics in their future R's, even received some benefits from the A, etc..... how would you as the BS feel?

Well as painful as dealing with any A or other problem, at least we still can feel..... Lacy and Conner can not feel anything anymore for, "...their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished." Lacy never got the chance to be a mom and hold her baby in her arms..... Conner never had a chance to be born and display his feelings. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

For those of us still left.... how are we going to use the time we have? In a positive, progressive manner or wallowing in pity? Be enablers of the A, accept abuse for heaped upon ourselves and our families? Give into anger? Be manipulated? Get sick, suicidal and depressed? Asorb unecessary guilt from the WS? Give the OP confidence? Rock the world of the A with all we have? Get help and support for ourselves and family? Secure our finances? Identify our boundaries? Implement them? Work with a good MC/IC for ourselves and children? Give the A enough rope so it hangs the A? Get the correct understanding about plan A an d B? Willing to let go after we have done our best plan A and B? Allow the time and make it a goal for our hearts and mind to get into sync so we can move forward with a solid personal recovery plan for ourselves and then be able to help our family and possibly an Xws?

A lot to think about, eh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Aloha,
L.

When I look into my WH's eyes I see a hollow soul. Seriously!!!! I see no emotion in his eyes whatsoever!!!!!!! He seems lost in space....kinda sad to think about. He used to be so full of life and a lot of fun!

I know with my ex I noticed something wasn't right when I looked into his eyes the spark was gone among other things. When I talked to him, he made no sense, saying he didn't know if he wanted to be married and if he's ever loved me. I looked at him, shook my head and asked who is she? He tried like heck to say there isn't anyone but I knew better.

I don't know if MB was around in 97, I did a love must be tough thing and through that I grew so much and I didn't want him anymore. I couldn't respect him or what he was about any longer, mainly because he hurt our girls so much.

Well they do say that the eyes are the windows to ones soul.

ok---almost had a heart attack when i first read this....didnt see the post date.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

ive been watching the eyes lately....got the feeling something hinky is up. gotten blatant clues by accident so i am on high alert again....weird though this time.....i really dont feel the same. would almost be a relief...i wasnt crazy all along....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nikko:
<strong> ok---almost had a heart attack when i first read this....didnt see the post date.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

ive been watching the eyes lately....got the feeling something hinky is up. gotten blatant clues by accident so i am on high alert again....weird though this time.....i really dont feel the same. would almost be a relief...i wasnt crazy all along.... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TR, AIE, Weaver & my dear Nikko,

Glad you responded. Hope this old post helped a bit. It was orignally written to help some MBers not have to live as much pain as I went through waaay back when.

I believe that the eyes do help us see the inner character and it doesn't lie as well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Can't hide it even if you have an oscar for acting. LOL!!!!

When BS realizes this, it c/b a powerful tool. Along with reverse babble, a skilled BS can cut deeply into the A and leave their mark. A very skillful BS can do this without raising a finger. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I say watching the eyes and actions are good measuring tools a BS can always keep handy.

Hope others can utlize it as well.

BTW, tell the WS you are watching their eyes..... then see them squint.... it's funny. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.