Hello everyone,<P>As you can read by the title I have struggling through things today. Confusion has gotten the better of me, and I really feel as if there is no end in site. <P>Last night, my wife and the other man (lover) went out to their movie together, "as friends". Once the kids were in bed I went on the computer and checked my wife's email. I know she is still in contact with the other man. She had two emails sitting in the deleted folder to him. Here are the contents;<P>"Show me.<BR>Don't let that ***** win. (she is referring to OM ex-wife) Come after me for once and show me that we are worth that.<BR>I deserve at least that, i have given my everything.<BR>This is our life here."<P>The OM's ex-wife is bad mouthing my wife to her friends and some within our circle of friends and my wife is trying to protect her reputation. She wants the OM to stick up for her and her name. He has a problem in doing that. What hurts is the reference to "our life". It is ironic how it seems she is struggling to save what they have while I am trying to do the same with my wife and I. <P>A picture could decribe how I feel. I feel like the other man is this 10 foot person, and at his feet is my wife on her knees begging and pleeding with him, she is normal in size. If you look very carefully you will see me. I'm only an inch tall, tugging at her dress with my tiny hands trying to get her to see me. That is how I feel.<P>Here's another;<P>"All i know is that you better be saying "sorry" to me tonight.<BR>and showing me that you mean it. (I don't think that means physical, just holding hands or whatever. This past week she hasn't seen him much, except for the movie last night, they have only been in contact through email, phone, and MSN)<BR>if you care anything about me and don't want to lose me."<P>I have learned some things. I was never a good protector. My wife and I went through some rough times with my parents. When we argued with them I never seemed to stick up for ourselves. I was always passive, afraid to disappoint my parents. That was always a touchy subject between us. Now I see she is trying to get that from the OM.<P>I take the bus everyday to work. Today I needed bus fare, I was a few cents short so I checked my wife's wallet and discovered a ring inside of it. It was quite thick, made of silver with some gold on top on either side. In the centre three small diamonds, or cubic zerconia, I'm not an expert in gems. However that also made my heart stop beating for a few seconds.<P>Before finding out about the affair. I stopped wearing my wedding ring. It was the first time I had ever taken the ring off since she presented it to me on our wedding day. It was hard, but I did it because, I thought her seeing me without it on my finger would shock her, or open her eyes. How nieve I was, her "fog" is way to thick. Haven't worn it since. It has been a month and a half now. What should I do? Should I start wearing it again? She is staying at home with me to work things out, even though she still maintains heavy contact with the other man. By not wearing it I feel as if I am demonstrating, through body language, that I am really not working hard enough. Wearing my ring might demonstrate otherwise, please advise?<P>She doesn't wear hers either. I have asked her why and she says when she does dishes the rings cause her to get a rash on her finger. That is true, I have seen it, however the doctor has given her cream in the past. This ring I found in her wallet, I suspect is something the OM may have given her. She takes it off when she is with me, but wears it when with him, it might be a promise ring or a friendship ring. That kills me. I CAN NOT STAND SHARING MY WIFE WITH ANOTHER MAN, IT IS RIPPING ME APART.<P>The selfish mother f#%&ing *****, does she not see SHE IS DESTROYING ME?????? I have had no appitite for a few weeks now. Days like today I just don't eat. I used to weigh 220 pounds, I'm now down to 207. I keep losing the weight, cause I have no need to eat.<P>Should I confront her about the ring in her wallet? Or just play by Rule no. 1 & 2 as WAT has suggested in numerous other postings of mine?<P>After the movie the two of them went for a walk at 10:00pm. I was in bed going to sleep. My wife came home at about 11:30pm and was on the phone with him right away. My youngest got up at midnight with a nightmare I attended to him. I heard my wife yelling on the phone to the other man. <P>A bit of background here...<P>Before discovering the affair, my wife babysat the OM's child every Monday. That no longer happens because OM's ex-wife has had written documents drawn up stating that my wife can not be anywhere in the vacinity of OM when he has his, and ex-wife's, child. If OM doesn't oblige he doesn't get to ever see his child. OM in fear of never seeing his child obviously agrees, and this is what they are struggling with now.<P>Sounds like a soup opera......I should write a f#%&ing book.<P>Apparently what had happened was, while on the walk, he blurted out that his ex-wife seriously doubts that OM's, and ex-wife's, child was ever properly looked after while in my wife's care. OM never defended my wife's honor, so they began to fight while on the walk. He took off for his apartment leaving my wife behind in the dark, while she called out for him in tears.<P>This kind of **** upsets me, to know this [censored] is treating her like this, however this probably acts in my favor. They talked and argued on the phone till 1:30am. I listened in on the conversation for maybe 30 minutes. Then the shouting stopped so I assumed they worked things out.<P>When my wife came to bed she snuggled up to me and I held her tight in my arms and we fell asleep that way.<P>Anyways, I am a computer programmer by day. I know my way around the computer. I have set up her profile on my work machine and fixed it so that copies of all emails are kept on the ISP servers for a day. What this does is that I receive all her email at my work now. However, she still gets her mail as well because when she logs on she will get the copies stored on the ISP's servers. It is complicated, but it will work and allow me to monitor my wife's email with the OM. Is this right? No! Invasion of privacy? Yes! I don't care. Will this ever end?<P>I purchased James Dobson's "Love Must be Tough" last night and have read most of the first chapter. I hope this gives me some insight.<P>What did any of you do to sway your WS while being the silent, but active, observer while he/she was acting as if they were abducted by aliens?<P>Anyways, must continue on with my "down day". There is work to be done.<P>------------------<BR>Blue Rodeo Boy<BR><-- Trust Yourself, and don't believe in any more lies. -->

It's early in the day yet - too early to consider it a 'down day'. <P>Reading between the lines of your wife's e-mails, it looks like she's really trying to put the pressure on the OM - and he's getting uncomfortable with it. (I think my husband is starting to do the same thing with his OW). This is a good sign - I know it hurts to think that she's still so desperate for his attention - but it's also the beginning of the end, the bubble is definately getting very thin and about ready to burst. They're ARGUING for goodness sake - and you did exactly the right thing by holding her close to you that night, comforting her. She felt as though she could come to you for some love and comfort - and that shows that she still needs you, still appreciates you being there. <P>You are doing a great job by the sounds of things - just be patient and hang on in there. <P>Paint.

I am glad you found this www site to vent your frusrations. My husband delt with my betrayal totally on his own and never discussed it with anyone. Instead he racked his brain alone and searched for answers to unanswerable questions in his own head. I begged him to come to this site, I begged him to take anti-depressants when his sorrow got the best of him to no avail. A year later we are in recovery but I wish he had sought advice before he pushed me away almost daily and love busted to know end judging me and hating me.<P>Today I am doing much better and so is he. I followed Harleys plan to the letter to get to this point.

Blue,<BR>I have to run but wanted to tell you to hang in there!<BR>Please put a priority on reading Dobson's book.<P>We all have our unique bizarre stories, so you are in good company. <BR>IMHO you need to seriously consider bring your W into what I consider reality! Going to movie with this guy?!! This sounds like a date to me!! <BR>You guys need to go to movie!!<BR>If I were you, I would prepare for serious stand on "NO Contact" & be prepared to tell her that she can leave if she wants to continue contact; that you do not believe in multiple relationships -- paligamy (SP?) -- Try to keep some confidence, you don't deserve to be treated this way! You deserve some respect!!<BR>You sound like a very gentle & good person, (which is excellent & don't feel bad for that!) but it seems to me it is time to take a strong stand! I know this is real tuff!!<BR>Best of luck, man!<BR>My prayers are with you!<BR>HH

Ok, I am even more confused. I have certain people saying I should be the silent (active) observer, and to be patient, they need to work things to an end themselves. <P>Then there are others saying I should put a stand on no contact. Giving her the choice to leave is she doesn't agree.<P>I made an appointment with a councellor from Blue Cross, through a program provided by my employer last Monday. The appointment is coming up this Monday. God it seems like an eternity. I hope the councellor can give me some advise.<P>I will be reading Dobson's book as a priority. Give me guidence Lord, in my time of confusion, and frustration.<P>------------------<BR>Blue Rodeo Boy<BR><-- Trust Yourself, and don't believe in any more lies. -->

Oh, on that date thing. I am planning something, next week isn't the best. On Thursday June 21, I have told her I want her to dress up for me and to leave her cell phone at home. The rest to her will be a surprize.<P>I plan on wining and dining her, then maybe we will just go for a walk and talk together. Hopefully, my mother-in-law will agree to babysit starting off at our house but later moving the kids to her house so that when we get home my wife and I will be alone.<P>That is the plan. I agree we need more time alone, so I can woo her back to me or prove I can fulfill her needs. But it is tough finding a sitter, and it is unfair to always ask my 60+ year old mother in law to look after a 5 and 3 year old.<P>------------------<BR>Blue Rodeo Boy<BR><-- Trust Yourself, and don't believe in any more lies. -->

Bluerodeoboy,<P>Dude, you are stronger than I could possibly imagine. Your story is compelling. I'll be brief but blunt. Bear in mind that I am not trying to judge, just give you a different perspective.<P>1. The "friendship" is the affair, the sex is just the natural outcome of the bond she has with the OM. No contact means no contact. She cannot possibly be "friends" when she is obviously in love with this man. It is the emotional attachment she has to overcome. Your marriage cannot be healed unless the contact stops.<P>2. Plan "A" your but off. Figure out what he is supplying (coversation, friendship, etc.) and fill it for her instead. YOU should be doing the movies and the walks with her, not him. Sorry, but it sounds like the affair is going strong. Read everything you can about affairs.<P>3. Work on yourself and decide what you really want. The journal is great. Put in it what YOU want regardless of what she might see. It's for YOU. From what you have written it sounds like either your wife wanted to be caught or has totally moved on. I mean months of her spending whole weekends and nights during the week over and you accepting this? I mean they sound like they were very open about their involvement from the get go. At first you sounded relieved that she made a friend. What are you're marriage issues that enabled this situation to develop. <P>4.At some point you will need to draw boundries. She wants someone to stand up for her? And you feel small? (YOU'RE HUGE). Stand up for the marriage and fight for it. If this means plan "A" then plan "A". Personally, I would establish a ground rule that she would have to move out if she feels the need to date. But that is just me. Others say plan "A" is much more effective with the WS @ home. Ask Steve Harley! <P>5. With the OM at your work so close, you will have to eventually have address this situation in some manner. Do you report to the same boss? It can/will have an effect on your career. I'd put the heat on him to be transferred/reassigned, whatever. Do not let him affect your performance. NO ONE should have to carry this burden 24/7 like that!<P>

I don't have any sage advice really, but it seems that the OM is starting to make some withdrawals from your W's lovebank and that this relationship is doomed.<BR>If she is looking for support from him and not getting it, how can you in turn show your support and ability to "stand up for her"? (Which I realize can be difficult considering the circumstances.)<BR>

My wife, our two kids, and myself are going to my in-laws cabin this weekend. The in-laws will be there too, but I see this as a good opportunity to begin negociations toward a Plan A. Do you agree?<P>Firstly, we have a babysitter at our whim. The OM will be an hour away and can only be reached by phone. My wife can't use the phone in the cottage because my in-laws are around and they would go bonkers, to put things politely, if they caught their daughter on a long distance call, using their phone, to her lover. So contact may be minimal between the two of them.<P>We could go for a walk together and discuss things, there is an ice cream shop there too where we can go to chat. Friends of ours are having a party on Saturday evening so we are going there together.<P>Anyone have any romantic ideas? Is this one of those moments to seize? Try to figure out how I can meet her needs that the OM obviously does so well?<P>------------------<BR>Blue Rodeo Boy<BR><-- Trust Yourself, and don't believe in any more lies. -->

Another option I have is to go see the OM. He sits three cubicles away from me at work here. Go to him ans ask him to seize contact? What do you think of that? Is that interfering? More likely that will turn my wife against me and I may loose her all together, right?<P>Damn, this is confusing, I hate my life!!!!<P>------------------<BR>Blue Rodeo Boy<BR><-- Trust Yourself, and don't believe in any more lies. -->

Blue -<P>I posted a second response to your other thread, and hope that you see that that second response (maybe you could use a little encouragement right now).<P>At this time, I would definitely say that the affair is still on-going (quite obvious to you, too). But, there are some things that you could use to your favor. First, she's fighting with the OM over her reputation and accusations of her child caring abilities. The OM is afraid to stand up for her - so you stand up for her, be her hero. Right now, it seems like she's putting a lot of weight on her reputation and what other people think.<P>For me, when I finally ended the affair by confessing to my H, it wasn't because my H found me out - it was because I couldn't take lying and deceiving him any longer - he didn't deserve to be treated that way, and it finally ate away at me. That's why being strong, doing the Plan A, thing, will eventually - not only make YOU a better, stronger person regardless of what happens, but it - hopefully, will cause her to reflect on how poorly she is treating you, and that you do not deserve to be treated that way. The thing is - she's doesn't really care about how this is affecting the OM's life, or how it's affecting your life - she's only concerned about what people think about her, her reputation and how this is affecting her.<P>For me, at the very beginning, the only reason I did not move out and seriously, seriously consider divorce was because (and I know it sounds really lame now, but) I was afraid of what my parents would think. I was afraid how they would look at me knowing I had an affair. Maybe I'm a whimp, but I felt bad about what happened, but I felt worse knowing that I would have to tell my parents - my Catholic parents - why I was moving out - that it was my fault, etc. . .<P>Seems to me, that your wife is still in that very selfish mode where she wants to save face among her friends, but is still seeing the OM. I wouldn't necessarily demand anything or make ultimatums, but this kind of information could be useful to you - seeing how the OM and your wife are fighting a lot. The thing is, you really need to get a feel for what your wife really wants. Sounds like she just doesn't have any interest in ending contact with the OM - now that is. But use that to your advantage - wine and dine her, stand up for her, protect her reputation as much as you can, support her in ways that you can support her - lead her to come to your for support versus the OM.<P>Right now, she's relying on the OM to defend her, to help her solve her problems - what you need to do is to get her to shift who she goes to for support and comfort. If you can only be a friend to her now - be the very best friend you can be. That's what my H did for me, and I'll never forget it. He never judged me, he didn't know what I was going through, but he always listened and tried to understand. He tried to put himself into my shoes, tried to figure it out. Sometimes, he would just hold me when I needed to be held, sometimes he would just listened while I vented. He was there to help and support me from the very beginning - though I must admit I don't know how he did it.<P>Talk to other BS and find out how they did Plan A, and listen to their advice. From my perspective, you've been given a rotten situation to deal with here, but how you handle it is entirely up to you. You can try to lead her back with kindness and compassion (which worked in my case) or you can choose to stand firm for what you believe in - and ultimately, I think you can do both at the same time.<P>It's not like you are approving or accepting of her behavior, but if your goal is to save your marriage, you just need to be as strong as you can be, be her best friend, and eventually, maybe that will lead to more and she'll understand that she no longer "needs" the OM - she will discover that you are meeting her needs and she really doesn't need to contact the OM.<P>I know the emails, the ring, everything is very upsetting, and sometimes, I wonder how BSs can get through all of this madness, but what I've learned in the process of recovery is that sometimes bad things happen to good people, and sometimes good people do bad things - it's not so much what happens that matters, but how you deal with it and how you get through it that counts. You will get through this one way or another - and there may already be some cracks beginning to form in the OM's suit of armor. Hunker down for the long haul - because it won't be easy, but you will get through this.

BRB...<P>Some random thoughts. <P>First of all, my prayers are with you as you walk this horrible path to who knows where.<P>1. Put your ring back on to show her your commitment to working out your problems.<P>2. Slow down. Don't push too hard. Your gestures appear admirable to you and to many of us who would almost kill for that kind of attention, BUT-- remember that it could come across to your W as begging and pleading. <P>3. If you are normally in the habit of going into your W's wallet for change, I'd ask about the ring you found. If her wallet is normally off-limits to you, then that's another story-- you'll be accused of invading her privacy. By asking her about the ring, you give her the opportunity to be honest with you. She may need the opener to fess up. But, but, but-- be prepared to get an unreasonable explanation (lie). Her reaction could tell you a lot.<P>4. As for confronting the OM-- I confronted my H's OW with good results. It's very risky. I knew which buttons of hers I could push to get the desired results. I knew how to make her see H's fog. I repeat-- this worked for me, but is unlikely to work most of the time.<P>5. I agree with Paintbox and others that if W & OM are arguing, this could be the beginning of the end of their R. Be prepared for the fallout of that when it occurs. The grief and loss she will feel will be painful for her. This, IMHO, is the best time to Plan A your butt off. She'll need her EN met and OM won't be there to do it.<P>6. You are so eager and willing. Keep the faith. Quietly snuggle when the opportunity arises. Just enjoy the feeling. Those love units DO get through to her. <P>7. Keep posting. You've got many following your threads who are willing to help and listen. Go outside. Look up. Find the bunny in the cloud formations. While you're looking up, say a small "thank you" for SOMETHING good that happened today. You'll feel better.<P>It will end.. and you can't jump to the back of the book to see how it turns out. It's not written yet. You can't author it alone, but you CAN edit it.<P>((((Hugs))))<P>The Hat.

Arrrgggggg,<P>I'm just in tears now. (((crying)))<P>I am so glad I found this site, all of your support has kept me on the ground.<P>I extend a heartwarming thank-you to all who have kept in touch with my situation.<P>------------------<BR>Blue Rodeo Boy<BR><-- Trust Yourself, and don't believe in any more lies. -->

brb,<P>I know this sounds crazy, but I agree that your W and the OM arguing is WONDERFUL NEWS! Yippeeee!!! If his soon-to-be-XW is using the children as leverage to get OM not to be around your W, then YIPPEEEE!!! Sounds like the XW has some balls and is speaking out for what she feels best for her children in protecting them from an ugly EMR. <P>I know how disheartened you must feel to have found that ring. I'm so sorry, hon. When I was unpacking H's bags when he moved back in, I found a wallet made out of Guatemalen material. There was a design on the front - two deers, one white, one brown, with their noses touching. I knew right then and there that it was a gift from the XOW to my H. It was only a cheap wallet, but it made me feel like sinking into the carpet. I thought of all of the things that gave him - an antique mirror, a beautiful prayer rug from Afghanistan, a real Tiffany lamp ... and yet there was that little wallet, which was, to my mind, a cherished possession. Otherwise he would have gotten rid of it. The sting of finding the "gifts" is horrible.<P>Again, I'm sorry you have to go through this. Prayers & blessings to you ...<P>belld

Blue,<BR>You sound like a guy like me & after I posted last I was wondering if you've cried much. It helped me a lot to release some of these terrible feelings!<BR>Everyone is different, but do you attend a church? As I kicked my wife out (she's been back since 02-10-01 by the way), on her way back home, she called our pastor & he was over within 20 minutes -- Pastor's have heard it all & are normally very good listner's. I highly recommend at least one short visit! You need some attention! The pastor can visit your S as well, but I believe you should see that person on your own initially. If she's willing, that might be a good alternative at least initially, to counseling. They are really good at praying you know!<BR>Do you have a guy friend you trust? I strongly recommend calling that person & arranging for a personal, private visit. It helps a lot to have some direct friendly support -- You may think you don't have anyone like that, but if you do, trust me, they want to help you!!<BR>This may be tricky, but I would at least consider telling your boss -- I was in no shape to do any real bussiness & my boss was extremely supportive! You don't want to make this a public project of course, but think hard about a support person or two to contact.<BR>You've gotten some good advice & it may not be as conflicting as it first seems. Managing was very good at expressing some of the things I suggested.<BR>The part of Plan A that is confusing is that it seems on the survice that we're suppoose to bend over backworks to surpress all of our needs to meet our S's -- To me the key is to be kind & nice -- like SKM said, you can be kind, loving & firm at same time. IMHO it is important that you appear strong as well as loving to S -- I hate to seem like a broken record but my Pastor said that when people are married there are some boundries & limitation ... -- seeing another guy is one of these!!(my words)<BR>To reinforce something SKM said, is that without some firmness it could come of as you Pleading -- I hope you're continuing Dobson's book -- he makes sense when you think about the part that no one is going to be attracted to another because of pity!<BR>I believe a part of plan A entells No Contact -- I blieve it is pretty logical, she has to make a choice -- perhaps she's not ready, but I think you have to be very clear that you cannot share her with another.<BR>This same logic of course applies to the OM -- Confront him? I think yes, definately, but you have to be ready & have to be strong & confident -- You may need some recuperation time to gather your senses --<BR>Weekend at cabin sounds great -- I don't know if I could go to party with S & act as if nothing is wrong -- like everything here -- it's up to you -- but I would not feel pressured to keep up appearances -- <BR>That was good advice about the ring -- considering she is the one that has broken the trust, I don't see the need to be apologetic about finding the ring -- you were looking for change is fine!<BR>Just my thoughts, I'm not a counselor, just wanted to show some support!<BR>Best of luck!<BR>Peace be with you!<BR>HH

What does Plan A really mean?<P>I have not studied the material enough to be concise, but I truly believe most people do not quite understand the entire principle. A person I've followed on several post is Muzohead -- I believe he has some experince & insights that can be very valuable -- Plan A may not actually be that far off from "Tough Love" -- most post define the two as seperate & opposite, from limited exposure to plan A I believe both strategies can be compatible or work togeather in a sense. <BR>Here is a copy from a post to & from Muzo that I think would be important to you:<P>You know I think you could be right about too much Plan A going on. It just seems so final to suggest to someone to B though since the odds go down when not together, and alot of people are really having a tough time doing a pristine enough A to really say they've done the job, including myself, I'm far from a perfect Plan A'er, though getting better) so what do you say??<P><BR>Please do tell us what is going on with you, I have wondered.<P><BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<P>ScaredInNY:<P>Scared me off? Not a chance! This board has a huge number of loving, caring, people, and all of you are like family.......you love 'em, you hate 'em, but you miss them like hell when they're not around!<P>Update:<BR>I've been dating, and it's gotten really serious really fast. ( too fast). I'm scared of hurting her, we really like each other THAT much from day one. She's leaving soon for 6 months, which is good, and I have no expectations, yet I have some hopes. ...<BR>I've learnt a lot.<BR>To answer your Q, I'm in Plan D, and it's going to be permanent. It may have been so different had I done a Plan B sooner, I believe it was appropriate.<BR>Plan A/Plan B?.....yes, I really meant what I said. Plan A works for remorse, no contact, meeting EN's, making a commitment, etc...(check the MB material). Plan A without all that is an invitation to wipe off feet on.<P>Fog is real, and so thick, sometimes it disguises the smell of coffee on the boil.........<P>muzohead <P>End copy ...<P>Just thought this perspective would help -- Plan A means no fighting, being nice, but also understanding both are working on M & NO CONTACT!<BR>I know this is extremely difficult!<BR>My Prayers are with you!<BR>HH<BR>