Andy ... just wondered if the counselling was helpful, or are you more confused than ever? or ?

Well sosad, I went and I talked, but it wasn't a help. There's really nothing anybody can tell me right now that I don't already know.<P>a. I need to either let my wife go or give 101% effort into the marriage.<P>b. I don't have the energy to give 101%effort.<P>c. I still feel like I have to give it more time, to heal from the OW first.<P>d. I still feel emotionally repressed at home.<P>No big help. I didn't schedule another solo session. My wife will schedule a joint session. Don't know where this will all go. I realize this is entirely within myself. I just don't know what to do about it.<P><sigh><BR>--andy

Andy, you were up early this morning!! <P>Can't be of much help ... anyway, as you said<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>There's really nothing anybody can tell me right now that I don't already know.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><sigh><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I realize this is entirely within myself. I just don't know what to do about it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm reading, at this very moment, a book called "Don't sweat the Small Stuff ... and it's all small stuff." Your words made me think of 2 things that I read tonight...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Trust your Intuitive Heart<P>Trusting your intuitive heart means listening to and trusting that quiet inner voice that knows what it is you need to do, and what actions need to be taken, or changes need to be made in your life. Many of us don't listen to our intuitive heart for fear that we couldn't possibly know something without thinking it through, or for fear that legitimate answers could possibly be so obvious. We say things to ourselves like, "that couldn't possibly be right" or "I couldn't possibly do that". And, as soon as we allow our thinking mind to enter the picture, we think ourselves out of it. We then argue for our limitations, and they become ours. If you can overcome your fear that your intuitive heart will give you incorrect answers, if you can learn to trust it, your life will become the magical adventure it was meant to be. Trusting your intuitive heart is like removing the barriers to enjoyment and wisdom.<P>AND<P>Live this Day as if it Were Your Last. It might Be.<P>None of us has any idea how long we have to live. Sadly, however, we act as if we're going to live forever. We pospone the things that, deep down, we know we want to do - telling the people we love how much we care, spending time alone, visiting a good friend, taking that beautiful hike...We come up with elaborate and sophisticated rationales to justify our actions, and end up spending most of our time and energy doing things that aren't important. We argue for our limitations, and they become our limitations .... Live each day as if it were your last on earth. (this is) not a prescription to be reckless or abandon your responsibilities, but to remind you of how precious life really is.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Believe in yourself Andy. No-one can tell you what is right for you .... you are the only one that has to live each and every day with YOU. <P>You know where I am at, so you know what it means to me to be able to express that in the context of MY life. But slowly, and surely .....<P>Hope your Wednesday is ok ... mine is just about done!!<P> <BR>

Oh sosad, those two quotes are very scary to me.<P>I simply CANNOT do what my intuitive heart tells me. It's wrong. Because then I'd be leaving my wife and seeking out the OW. And that line "live every day like it's your last"... that basically was my justification for my first affair 11 years ago.<P>I feel rather like Maya, that I'm sorta stuck where I am for right now.<P>--andy

Oh, how many times I said, as I turned 40 and had a mid-life affair, that I didn't want to spend the next 20 yrs. like the last.<P>I can see where those quotes would sting and confuse, andy. But you have chosen to stay with your wife for a reason. So <B>since</B> that is what you have chosen, live <B>these</B> days with your wife like they're your last. If you were to die tomorrow, you'd want her to know that she was worth something important enough to fight for - or you <B>would</B> be with the OW. You are not! Like the song says, "if you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with"... <P>I know how hard it is to fake it, and how much we abhor the dishonesty of it. Thing is, <B>if you were to die tomorrow</B> you'd want her to think that she was loved, wouldn't you?<P>BIG air-hugs<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

Sorry to scare you Andy <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I feel rather like Maya, that I'm sorta stuck where I am for right now<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Guess you are then, in some way, making choices. You better get on and live with them then!!!! You are only as stuck as you choose. <P>Hi NB. <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I know how hard it is to fake it, and how much we abhor the dishonesty of it. Thing is, if you were to die tomorrow you'd want her to think that she was loved, wouldn't you?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Please don't take offense, but as a betrayed wife, those words send a shiver down my spine. I didn't want my H pretending anything to me. What does dishonesty achieve? Dishonesty achieves pain, hurt and confusion. For both betrayers and betrayed. I didn't want to think he loved me, I wanted the real thing. And if it wasn't there .... what is a life without honest expression of feeling?<P>Sorry, but those words are the most scary of all, for me anyway. <P><BR>

sorry I scared you sosad... <P>We've heard around here that we should "fake it till we make it" on more than one occasion... that the real feelings will follow. <P>I will not speak for airheart, but for me, I love my H, but not in the way I need to. Even he has said that he would rather I faked it sometimes than to hear the truth of it. I am honest, sometimes to a fault, and have hurt my H very much by the things I have said. One thing I realized, by reading this and other threads, that if I were to die tomorrow, I would want my H to feel loved.<P>Again, this is a touchy subject, and I apologize for scaring you, or causing you any pain. I've been in your shoes too, and I'll tell ya, I'd rather have heard my H say he was gonna fake it till he made it than to hear that he loved the OW. Just MHO.<BR> <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

sosad:<P>I'm not sure that this doesn't belong in a different post, but those "tidbits" you posted could be construed to be telling you to:<P>LIVE BY YOUR EMOTIONS. LET THEM RULE. <P>In general, a great prescription for trouble. <P>"Faking" is one technique to actually regain feelings. The "Act as if..." philosophy is basically a limited experiment on creating some type of goodwill towards your spouse. And it can have dramatic effects, because you will learn that being positive can be the most productive thing you can do in a situation for someone else, and in turn, this makes you feel good. It can also help the other person create "goodwill" towards you.<P>Andy: You're whining about not being able to give 101%. Who the heck cares---how much are you able to give??? You're still suffering through withdrawal, so let your wife help you through this (and couples counseling will help). You claim to be emotionally repressed---is that your wife's fault for responding to your emotions with lovebusters, or your fault for "protecting" her from your feelings (that's called "lying").<P>You want an answer??? Stop trying to figure this out for yourself. Call Steve Harley (888-639-1639) and start doing some damn counseling, NOW!!!<P>I promise you that you will feel better about this. Really... You're killing yourself by sitting on this fence. Get off it---Steve will be able to motivate you and provide you the tools you need to start feeling better about your marriage. <P>(Hmmmmm. I really should start using this as a signature line; huh Chris???).<P>

Andy,<P>I haven't much to add as usual. <P>My husband and I are doing fairly well. Your advise helped me much as you were in the same position as him. <P>He is not over the OW but is getting closer with me. He realizes that it won't be like a new love. Heck he has been with me for over 17 years. He says he is starting to fall in love with me again. <P>He has his down moments. He worries about OW. This job transfer he is making bothers him too because he won't be able to see daily if she is all right.<P>Still we are here and he is working on us. I am working on us. <P>Last night I went to bed after him and got into bed. He rolled over and grabbed me and held on to me. He has never done that before. Certainly not in many years. It made me feel so wonderful. I just laid there thanking the Lord.<P><B>The "ACT AS IF" thing is a big clue to make this work.</B> Don't look at it as faking it. My husband said to me a long time ago that he needed to "ACT AS IF." I'll be darned but it has helped.<P>I just read your profile and you registered in June. (?) We have been going through this sense the end of February. So, I think you are right. You just need to give it more time.<P>Does your wife post here? Does she read the site? Does she read the books? Is she doing all she can to provide a safe haven at home?<P>I really think this will all come to you just the way you want it to. I don't know why we are all in this mess? I guess we have much to learn and this is a means of teaching us. We will be stronger in the end.<P>I really admire your conviction and commitment to your marriage. Give yourself a break and time to really heal. None of us got here in a short time and I think maybe we won't be healed in a short time. It will probably take at least as long as the affair was active and maybe longer.<P><P>------------------<BR>God bless you and all of us.<P>Samantha<BR>

Firstly, for Sheryl:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I know how hard it is to fake it, and how much we abhor the dishonesty of it. Thing is, if you were to die tomorrow you'd want her to think that she was loved, wouldn't you?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'd want her to know that I was honest with my emotions. I'd want her to know that I regretted that she wasted her life with me instead of being with someone who could really love her. In that respect, I agree with sosad. (BTW, my wife already knows that stuff)<P>K --<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You claim to be emotionally repressed---is that your wife's fault for responding to your emotions with lovebusters, or your fault for "protecting" her from your feelings (that's called "lying").<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>My wife reacts extremely negatively when I show that I'm depressed. So I don't act depressed (as much as I can hide anyway), so she won't get angry or depressed herself. I've told her flat out that she needs to let me grieve, but she gets angry with me anyway. But I really don't expect any other reaction from her. What's she supposed to do, act all happy?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You want an answer??? Stop trying to figure this out for yourself. Call Steve Harley (888-639-1639) and start doing some damn counseling, NOW!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Seriously, K, what is Steve gonna tell me? He doesn't know me from Adam! I gotta tell ya, I'm EXTREMELY skeptical about that. He's gonna give me some generic advice that's gleaned from the Harley material. What else can I expect from him? I know the Harley material. I can probably predict in advance what he would tell me to do.<P>The other thing is, my wife is not willing, or probably even capable, of helping me through withdrawal. She'd rather I just didn't have it. She cannot be empathetic towards my depression. She would need that before she could help me through it. Believe me, I've talked to her about it.<P>I actually do have a plan. The plan is wait out the rest of this damned WITHDRAWAL! If, after I can say with assurance that I'm completely over the OW, then I can attempt to do something about my feelings for my wife. If I don't get anything back, I'm gonna hafta talk to my wife about separation.<P>--andy<P>

airheart:<P>Good. I was reallly skeptical about working with a phone counselor as well. I'm born skeptical, and I'm trained to be critical, analytical, yada yada yada.<P>I know that you have read the material. But I'm not convinced that you understand how to put it into practice. I've worked with Steve for over a year, and I can honestly tell you that if I called him now, that he'd be able to offer me new (helpful) insight on the MB principles as applied to any situation that I felt I "thoroughly" understood.<P>The bottom line here is that I think you should do the experiment. Make the call. See if your skepticism is justified. If he doesn't help, in a couple of sessions---you're only out $150. How much would you be willing to spend to forget about the OW, and feel a deep love for your wife in a new marriage?? It sure as hell had better be more that $150. If you did 10 sessions, that'd still be only $750. A bargain.<P>Steve's advice will not be generic at all. He will listen to you, and work with you to apply this stuff to your life. And he understands the MB techniques, and knows how to apply them to very difficult, specific situations. And frankly, your's isn't even that tough (IMO). <P>The other side of this is that your wife is not exhibiting behaviors that will help your marriage heal. If you start counseling on your own with Steve, to help your marriage---she'll get sucked into the counseling as well. And Steve will be able to work with her, and get her to start exhibiting the empathetic, understanding, "non-angry" behavior that you need at this time.<P>The bottom line is that you've suffered from a long affair, and you're still in withdrawal. And your wife isn't helping the healing with her behaviors. This happens all the time, and Steve will effectively counsel you through it.<P>So, give it a try. Your "wait and see" approach may work, but it's going to be much harder on you and your wife, in the long run.<P>Convinced yet???

Hi Samantha,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I really admire your conviction and commitment to your marriage. Give yourself a break and time to really heal. None of us got here in a short time and I think maybe we won't be healed in a short time. It will probably take at least as long as the affair was active and maybe longer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I gotta take a step back and gain some more perspective I guess, huh? Thanks for the reminder of TIME. I know this but I'm an impatient person. Also, pessimistic. <P>Anyway, see this is why I haven't been posting much lately, cuz I don't want to bring everyone down and keep whining and complaining. And I feel rather like a hypocrite when I tell someone that they'll find feelings for their spouse again.<P>--andy

andy,<P>sorry. bad day, huh? Don't ever worry that you're bringing anyone down, that's not your problem. Take care of you, and your family.<P>You're a good guy.<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

Hi Andy,<P>Just me, I wanted you to know that I'm pulling for you and your marriage.<P>I know how difficult withdrawal is, it really sucks. I had quite a few setbacks and hopefully I'm done banging my head against the wall. <P>Counseling is really tough, and at times I've felt it confused me more. Me and my husband actually went yesterday for the first time together. Anyway, not sure if you and your wife have gone to counseling together, but my husband really surprised me yesterday, he was very open in expressing that he loves me very much and wants to work on the marriage. I know your wife has said the same to you, it does help.<P>I'm scared to Andy, I know how hard it is, give it more time to heal. I know the struggle everyday so well. I'm pulling for you

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The plan is wait out the rest of this damned WITHDRAWAL! If, after I can say with assurance that I'm completely over the OW, then I can attempt to do something about my feelings for my wife.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>What happens if it NEVER ends??? I’ve been in counseling for a year and a half, haven’t talked to my OW in a bit longer than that, and I had a (short) reoccurrence last week, after months with no feelings of withdrawal. I think it was worse because I thought I had it licked. Now I am prepared for its eventual (and inevitable) return. Here I am, I <B>KNOW</B> my OW was bad news, and I’m having that kind of trouble. I can’t imagine what it’s like for someone who actually still <B>likes</B> their OP. It’s why I know the whole fantasy thing is true... not for the feelings themselves (since THEY were real), but for the person I attributed them to.<P>You need to be an active participant in your own recovery, Andy. It’s what I tell Maya as well... only YOU can change YOU. Else all you are doing is prolonging your own agony. Listen to K... your having already made up your mind on the Harley Principles in practice is another disrespectful judgement, no? <P>ps: To Hummingbird... Kudos and congrats on the joint counseling, but... what’s it like to be in a counselor’s office with that big lie hanging between you and your H??? I’m not trying to slam you here, just really curious how true work can be done on your marriage with that tremendous roadblock just hanging out there in the room? You had to be thinking about it the whole time, right?<P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die<p>[This message has been edited by WhoDat (edited November 10, 1999).]

K--<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How much would you be willing to spend to forget about the OW, and feel a deep love for your wife in a new marriage?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>See, I think I can forget about the OW on my own. Don't need any help there. But feeling deep love for my wife... Don't know how possible that is seeing as I never had deep love for her in the entire 16 years of marriage.<P>I'm not saying that my situation is a difficult one for Steve to "handle", but I've stumped everyone else so far. That includes two different other counsellors and most of my friends here on the forum.<P>But I'll go as far as to say I'll think about it (calling Steve that is). I'll talk to my wife.<P>WhoDat--<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>your having already made up your mind on the Harley Principles in practice is another disrespectful judgement, no? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I haven't made up my mind about the Harley Principles. In fact most of them make sense. I'm just skeptical that a few 45 min. phone counselling sessions will do any good.<P>You're right though that I need to take a more active role in my recovery. I'm just not motivated. I wanna quit.<P>Hum--<BR>Thanks for your kinds words. My wife and I have gone to counselling sessions together, yes. We get some stuff aired out, but all in all, I'd say they weren't helping very much.<P>Sheryl --<BR>Bad day? How could you tell? <P>--andy<BR>

Andy,<P>I will throw my own 2 cents in here, too.<P>Although I am now the betrayed, I have also been the betrayer. I know how you feel. For me, it was the conscious conviction to end the relationship with the OW, coupled with a commitment to find ways to rebuild that love for my H that helped me.<P>For me, it was all about CHOICE. I think often as I look back on my situation about how I let myself get swept into the EA. I still work with the OM, but do not have to see him everyday. Even if I did, I could handle it, because I have done everything to put the feelings for him where they belong - on a professional level. I have rebuilt the love for my H -it is so high, it is sustaining me now thru his affair.<P>I understand how you can go from this feeling of power and being in control when you are in the affair, to feeling helpless and even victimized a bit by having to end something that brought you great satisfaction and pleasure on many levels.<P>But, you did CHOOSE to stay with your W. You CHOSE to let the OW go out of your life. Now, you have to take the steps to make your commitment to your W the right decision. <P>When I broke it off with OM, I felt pretty sure it was my H I wanted to be with, but who ever knows for sure how things are going to work out? Would my decision have been different if I had been able to look into the future and see his betrayal of me beginning in February this year and still ongoing? Well, honestly, I sure would have thought long and hard about breaking up with OM if I had known what the future would bring. <P>The point is that NONE of us here knows what the futre will bring. You have chosen a path and it's hard and painful right now. Doesn't mean it will have been the right path. Also, doesn't mean that this won't have been the BEST decision you ever made, either. Only the future can hold that answer.<P>But, if you can't find ways to reinforce by your actions, thoughts and words that you have made the right decision, your chances of success are not so good. You have to work at convincing yourself this is right and then act as if it is right. Isn't that how we approach all decisions that we make? We opt one way or the other and then proceed as if it is the right way to go and never find out until later whether we were correct in our thinking or not.<P>You are hurting badly. We can all feel that coming across in your posts. Don't lurk and not post because you are down. You offer so much encouragement and wisdom to the rest of us. I always look for your posts. You have so much to offer. If you need us now, reach out an dlet us support you.<P>NONE of us sees our own situation as well as others do, andy. It is a truism of life. I never thought I would be in counseling and I am and have benefitted greatly. My H won't go but has commented many times how much "better" I seem to be getting along because of going. A good counselor will not tell you what to do. Instead he/she will help you to see fallacy of your thinking, suggest things for you to think about that you might not have considered, and also be able to share with you from their wealth of knowledge in counselling other indiviudals and/or couples. Like you, I have read all those books, but nothing helps as much as the sessions for me.<P>Your wife - I am now the betrayed, so I can share her perspective, too. I don't know how, but she must find a way to be more supportive and understanding of what you are going thru. EVERY book I ever read on infidelity and relationships says that a key to successful relationships/communication is the ability to see things from your partner's point of view and to be able to empathize with what they are feeling. She is struggling with seeing your feelings - maybe her own needs are outweighing yours at this point? I have struggled with that myself during these recent events with H. My own needs sometimes take precedence and I then don't have a lot of empathy and support for him.<P>You guys are together and have commited to each other. To me that is 90% of the battle. The rest requires skills, attitudes and tools that maybe you 2 don't have a lot of right now. Please reconsider the counselling for you both.<P>I know this is too long, but it comes from my heart. <P>I agree with Sheryl - andy, you ARE a good man...<P>Roll Me Away<P><BR>

RMA, thanks a whole lot for your post. It means alot. I've been feeling like I shouldn't give advice cuz I'm failing in my own life. I also hate to come off sounding like a wimpy whiney man. So unattractive! But you made me feel a little better about that, thanks!<P>about my wife, you wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>She is struggling with seeing your feelings - maybe her own needs are outweighing yours at this point?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, my wife's <B>always</B> had trouble empathizing with me. It's always about how it affects <B>her</B>. She's very egocentric. We've actually discussed that and she'll be good for a few days, then revert. But yeah, her needs are suffering throughout all of this. Maybe I should stop worrying so much about how I feel and start worrying more about how she feels.<P>Again, thanks to everyone who's responded to this thread. I appreciate it all!<BR>--andy

Hi airhart,<BR>I don't give advise often or even offer encouragement (out loud) mainly because of time constraints and it usually takes all the time I have free to just read the posts. There are few men betrayers here, seems to be mostly women betrayers represented and a lot of betrayed, male and female, so I personally, am glad to see the situation from your point of view. You mentioned that you feel like Maya in that you just want out... Tired of trying to please others...Don't love your spouse, never have really, etc......Both of you seem to have spouses who have not bought into the Harley principles and are therefore not making too many deposits in their own favor. I was lucky in that the "Harley principles" seemed the appropriate way to go, even before I learned of Harley or the affair of my H. Long before I knew of the affair I realized that I could control only my behavior and that many of the complaints my H had ( most of which were escalated in importance because of the OW in his life) about me and our relationship, I could change. Also in my favor was the fact that my H had loved me, been in love with me, liked me for the most part, etc. and never thought different about that. That brings me to a question for you........What type of feelings did you have toward your wife when you married her if not love? What characteristics about her were admirable then and/or now? Do you feel you married her for the wrong reasons? and if so what were they?<P>If you have decided to "stay married" what are the reasons now? Do you want to be happy with your choice, or just to get by until you die?<P>Read Marrianne Williamson's writings, one of which is "A Return to Love" (I think) She is the one I quote often, sorta, about the miracle of the mind's abilities to change our own perceptions. Her writing is somewhat "heady" and makes you go "HUH?" lots of times, but there are so many truths in what she says about what "love" is and the power it can have. <P>Give yourself more time. You are still somewhat in recovery, and your W does not seem to be on the page she needs to be if she is to survive this trauma. I wonder if she too, feels that she has "never really loved you." Is is possible that you both have projected these thoughts on the other?<BR>IE. "I never really loved her, so she never really loved me." "He never really loved me, so why should I pretend any different?"<BR>Is is possible that under all these self-defense tactics and mechanisms that BOTH of you have denied love for each other, and never expressed real feelings of love because of fear of rejection? Just a thought.<P>I, too, am not a marriage councelor, but I have slept in a Holiday inn. (whatever that means, stole that from someone).<P>I really wish for you the mind flip that you need to find fulfillment and happiness in your life as you have chosen to lead it.<P><BR>Beth

andy,<P>I just got home and back on-line. Yu sound better already. I KNOW that you NEED that empathy and support right now. Having sat on both sides of the fence, I UNDERSTAND that you too are hurting. I think it is hard to be the betrayed and understand what the betrayer really feels unless you have walked in that person's shoes. The sad fact is that there is plenty of pain and hurt for all parties involved. I really wish your wife could understand that, too. Maybe a little further down the road she will unharden her heart and put this in a different perspective.<P>But, the good news, and there IS good news here, is that you can get empathy and understanding HERE!!! Hopefully this can sustain you a bit until you feel stronger.<P>Luv Ya, andy!!!!! <P>Roll Me Away<P>