<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

Well folks this post may get some people riled but I have to respond. I did Plan A for 3 months-during this time my H would only harp on the things I did wrong because I admitted to him what drove him away. Fine I made mistakes but they were not so bad as to abandon me and leave me to start a new life with someone else. I have found that those people who let go alot faster and move on with their life and tell their spouse enough is enough get that spouse back alot sooner-Now I only recommend this if you are a strong person and you feel that there truly is NO HOPE of the spouse returning because once you do this they may very well NOT COME BACK..This is the point that I have reached. Its not a game to get my spouse back but me going on with my life. I am a Christian - I work for a Christian Organization-I go to a Christian Counseling center. I do believe on working on a marriage but it takes two....The only thing I can work on is myself and this is what I am doing.. I may regret some of what I have done but I would feel worse if i did not take a stand for myself, I do not want to be hurt by my H anymore...fire away folks, I don't think anyone can say anything that would hurt me worse than the actions and words of my H.....

A couple more comments:<P>HGB:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I have great concerns about allowing plan A to become a competition between the wounded spouse and the op. In Torn Asunder, Dave Carder is very clear that this is an extremely dangerous thing to do. There is a very real risk of the competition escalating behaviors to such a level that they can never be continued in real life if and when the spouse returns to the marriage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is one of the areas where I felt that Carder's book is really of limited value (addressing an active affair, versus recovering from a terminated affair---which I think it is very good). One of the first things that Steve Harley hammers home in counseling is the necessity of Plan A being behavioral changes that you are planning to commit to FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. So you're absolutely correct in the risk of overdoing it, but that's one of the major cautions to spouse's who are beginning Plan A. I just can't remember whether that is actually stated in SAA, or if it was just counseling advice from Steve.<P>And the issue with Carder's book (and several others) is embodied in this quote:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Unmet needs impact vulnerability, but bad decision making begins an affair.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Again, I completely agree with the decision making being an issue. But the real question is what is the Betrayed Spouse going to do to try to save the marriage, and to end the affair (should the wayward spouse refuse to, which is so often the case). This is where I see the Harley approach being the most balanced, and most "Christian" of the approaches---he advocates a period of willingness to work on the marriage (Christlike forgiveness) followed by the "tough love" type separation (advocated by Carder, Dobson, and many others) should Plan A not have the desired effect of negotiating an end to the affair.<P>Terri:<P>I think your situation (as well as Chris's and Jim's) are the types of situations where a longer term Plan A is completely appropriate. In essence, if your spouse is separated from you already, you have less of the daily "drain" on the lovebank, and you can continue your Plan A behavior longer. One aspect of this is that as long as Plan A doesn't damage YOUR feelings of self-esteem, and your love for your spouse---it's OK to continue for a year or two. Hey---it's YOUR life, and if you're comfortable with this, there's really not a big downside. At some point, you may need to address the issue of your spouse doing a prolonged "fence sitting", and enforce a no-contact more to push the decision-making process by the WS than to save your love.<P>Rick: Plan B is set up to prolong the period the betrayed spouse can last while the affair (hopefully) burns out. If the faithful spouse ends up having no love left, and start divorce proceedings, then Plan B is really no longer necessary. Parents should always cooperate with the issues concerning the children, and this can even be done in Plan B---although it needs to be done with care.<P>OOOO: I've posted to you a couple times before, but I'll say this again---I think you're suffering with a spouse in withdrawal. And if you think Plan A is tough when the affair is active, I think it's tougher during withdrawal. You've expended a big amount of energy in Plan A, and now you're so close you can taste it---but recovery isn't happening fast enough for you.<P>I strongly urge you to call Steve Harley for counseling (888-639-1639). He can coach you through this period, as well as help you make the decision to separate, if that is what is best for you and your marriage at the time. I think what you need is some inside help and guidance for how to deal with this period, and Steve is the man who can give this to you.<P>Last, but not least, Distressed:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Let me say this straight up. If the infidel at discovery shows no concern for the emotions of the betrayed, no remorse about his behavior, and no willingness to make any effort, the odds of ANY plan working go dramatically down. Resolution will take a very long time, at best. Plan A is of almost no value here past the first couple of months. If I had it to do over again and saw this combination of behavior, I'd have sped myself along to Plan B, and then probably Plan D, much sooner.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I understand completely that this was the situation with your husband. But in my case, Plan A was of a tremendous value to my marriage, even though my wife acted just as you described (little concern for my emotions, and no effort to restore the marriage or end the affair). I think in my case a Plan A effort of at least three to four months (and I did just under 6) was needed because I WAS guilty of poor marital behavior, and I needed to establish a consistant track record of new behavior before my separation.<P>I was really only aware of HOW good a job I had done in Plan A after we started down the recovery process. And while I had felt, during the time, that I wasn't being effective (pouring water through a sieve is my analogy), those efforts can make a difference if they are fundamental changes in behavior that HAVE lead to the loss of love in the marriage. It's not a miracle cure, but it sets up the scenario in the wayward spouse's mind that the marriage might not be a disaster if they were to return.<P>I think the more difficult aspect to address with Plan A is for the spouse who really hasn't been guilty of poor marital behavior (no lovebusters, good "need" meeting). In this case, the affair is probably more an issue of lack of honesty by the wayward spouse, and perhaps not spending enough time with each other. Those issues are tougher to address in Plan A, and my gut instinct is that Steve would advise only a short time in Plan A (2-3 months)---although this depends on your feelings of love for your spouse (I was constantly filling out the lbi form for him to take my "temperature").<P>If nothing else, I think this thread illustrates the need to have a good coach (preferrably a professional) to help you through this time. It's nearly impossible to be detached enough to judge your progress, what areas you need to work on, and make the decision to go from Plan A to B on your own---the whirlwind of emotions when dealing with an affair render decision making very difficult.

<B>K</B>,<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I think you're suffering with a spouse in withdrawal. And if you think Plan A is tough when the affair is active, I think it's tougher during withdrawal. You've expended a big amount of energy in Plan A, and now you're so close you can taste it---but recovery isn't happening fast enough for you.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This may be true that I’m suffering with my wife in withdrawal, but what if this withdrawal continues for a very long time, then what do I do? I believe that her mind has been set in term of not coming back to be my wife again. She actually took for granted that I’m OK with this arrangement of being roommate with her for now. As long as I don’t bring any subject of us she is fine with it and she wanted to leave it at that. She wanted to see me move on with my life, but within her term. I mean within the boundary of being here with her as a roommate to help her raise our kids together with no physical or emotional attached whatsoever. She still wanted to keep everything as nothing has happened. I mean I still have to provide financial and domestic support and do everything that I used to do from the past 15 years even with a little bit more to it this time because, in her point of view, I still love her and want her back. But nothing between us, period. It is almost like being the <B>dirt</B> under the doormat. She knows for the fact that she can’t make it on her own if she were to keep this house and have the kids stay with her in the house. She couldn’t even have a courage to drive on high way left alone to go somewhere more than an hour from the city. <P>K, I did talk to Steve Harley last week and plan to have more session with him to help me come up with the plan to handle my situation. I need to finish the LB questionnaire before I proceed further. I feel like my wife needs a big lightning jolt to wake her up to reality. She needs to come down to earth and leave that fairy tales and romantic movies where they belong. She did mention to me multiple times that she always wanted to be like in fairy tales or romantic movies. She took too much of her pride to stay on the fence right now. She has this personality of “wanted to win at all cost”. If she commits to this relationship again, it would signal a failure or a loser on her pride. Until this personality changes, I don’t see there is hope in my situation. As a matter of fact, I just couldn’t imagine seeing me getting into this battle with her again. It has nothing to do with her affair this time, but it has something to do with her controlling and dominating behaviors. No one in her family wanted to deal with that issue. They are avoiding it as much as they can. She, herself, admitted that it was her problem. She just couldn’t take it as a loser whether she is right or wrong. The word “rejection” is not in her vocabulary. She likes to joke about someone, but she doesn’t like someone to joke on her. It is one way only. To her, if it is not her way, then it is highway, period.<P>OOOO<BR><p>[This message has been edited by OffOnOnOff (edited February 28, 2001).]

OOOO,<P>I have a lot of sympathy for your situation, because you're basically doing the right things, but growing tired of the effort. I think it's great that you're talking to Steve, because he'll be able to help you assess how *good* the Plan A you've done really is. <P>I wouldn't at all be surprised if you do end up separated for a period. It'd be great to educate your wife on the "silliness" of romantic love (and Steve will probably try to discuss this with her), but you can't do it. All you can do is to demonstrate the best marital behavior you can muster for a period of time that lets your wife know that "change can happen", and then withdraw yourself to protect your lovebank from depletion, as well as giving your wife a taste of reality.<P>But as much as I see a separation as a tool for doing that, my separation was the single hardest thing I've ever done. It's unlikely that your wife will be the one to move out, so you really need to have your ducks in a row before you move to this strategy.

<P>I agree with Distressed's original topic, although realizing everyone is different, each situation is unique. I would like to say that I did a terrible job with Plan A. It was such an un-natural state of being for me, so much so it was clearly a transparent effort on my part to execute such behavior to my H, he knew it and so did I. <P>Plan A is not in my character analysis at all, it is not a part of who I am. I needed to just be ME, not what someone else says I should be, and not feel what someone else says I should feel.<P>I think the Harley's have a sound and very functional set of values and rules. I believe in their methods with all my heart. I only wish I had learned of this site one year earlier than I did, I would have made so many fewer mistakes. But, then again, I was just being who I am...ME.<P>While trying to execute Plan A in my life, I kept thinking "why am I doing these things",I felt like a doormat, that my feelings didn't count, I hadn't been hurt at all, it's ok, just wipe your feet here, you are loved and you are perfect, you can do no wrong and it's ok to walk all over my heart. <P>If H wants me and our marriage, then I will be here to help resolve our issues and work hard to have a better relationship than the one we had, when and if he returns (emotionally). But, I was allowing Plan A to make me more angry than I was already. I was doing it all and he, oh holier than thou sinner, was getting all the attention, from me and OW. I was getting nothing!!!! No, No, this won't flush. At some point he is going to have to step up to the plate.<P>It has only been recently (19 months since D-day), that I have begun to really focus on myself, my behaviors, attitudes and needs. I had to let my H go... No, not physically, but mentally,I can no longer concentrate on HIM. I am worn to a frazzle. I needed peace in my life, I realized I was not going to get peace until I just let go of him, allowing him to be him and me to be me, trusting that the Lord would lead him in the right direction regarding what is just and good for the welfare of his marriage and family. <P>If it's not there, for now, you nor anyone can sway your spouse into feeling things that just aren't there. You must realize this or you will be setting yourself up for more heartache. Plan A might be all about your changes, but it will absolutely NOT change your spouse's feelings. Your spouse may even see this plan as total manipulation, if like me, it is so out of character for you.<P>Be careful with Plan A... plan B was a much better concept to me. It is more concrete, stating the facts more clearly. I also think at some point, before you get completely worn down, that an ultimatum, regarding what behaviors you will and will not accept, should be discussed. This protects YOU and also let's the WS clearly consider that you will not be his/her doormat any longer.<P>Cathy

More great comments. Just to be clear, I extensively counseled with Steve Harley during my Plan A, Plan B, and Plan A again. He was very clear with me how important it is to "use Plan A to lay a strong foundation for Plan B". It was always clear from him that he viewed Plan B as essential and that Plan A was the prelude to it. While he did encourage me to do a great Plan A, he was also clear that the timeframe for it needed to be limited. He was right about it too. By the time it was necessary to go into Plan B the second time, my love was completely gone and I chose Plan D instead. I've seen alot of cases like that.<P>I want to be clear again that I have nothing against Plan A, only concern that it's of limited benefit when conducted for extended duration and comes with some downsides. There is no question it can be a great set-up for Plan B and help to demonstrate necessary changes. It's just unlikely to cause an end to the affair.<BR>

Hi All:<P>At last a good discussion again. I've missed them. <P>Aha.....Plan A. The only problem with the duration of Plan A is that it's effectiveness is so limited in the early periods of the A because so much of the BS's behavior is emotional and reactive and usually totally unconducive to marriage repair. The WS is also incapable of rational behavior at this time...not while rapped up in his/her new fantasy OP.<P>This situation is made more difficult where the couple remain together in full knowledge of the affair...while it is ongoing. To expect the BS to acknowledge and try to respond to unfulfilled EN of WS is asking a lot at what is already a very emotionally charged time. I know that I felt that at this time civility was the ultimate response that I was capable of....certainly not responsiveness to EN. Within 2-3 months however (during separation although with contact after the first six weeks) WS and I were able to begin to discuss our problems more rationally and probably in more detail then in the last ten years of marriage. <P>At this point (3 months after D day) I was ready to impliment a plan to work on what EN of my WS I thought I was failing to satisfy. At the same time the natural progression of the A was beginning to take the "glow" off the A. My WS was beginning to miss his old life. Now he was capable of seeing changes in how I was treating him and<BR>the possibility of getting back together.<BR>So the end result was that my attempts to change and meet his needs coincided with his attempts to end his affair...or one fed on the other.<P>So, six months after D day, he's on his way back home and by eight months he's at home.<BR>That worked out well...but here's the rub. He wouldn't stay there...he kept popping in and out everytime OW would pop back into his life. <P>So I'm convinced that Plan B is a necessary part of the process and without it the WS will never know the consequences of his acts.<BR>After the glow is off the affair (and the time this takes can vary so much) and a reasonable time has been expended in Plan A then we need to proceed into Plan B. If in 6-9 months WS has not acknowledged BS changes then further attempts to get him to acknowledge them is probably futile. The BS's changes are apparently not the reason the A is continuing and therefore Plan B is probably going to be necessary to jolt the WS back into reality.<P>Certainly generalities are just that...generalities. Every situation is a little bit different. But having been here on this website for over a year I see the same patterns repeated over and over again and feel that if the correct procedures are applied at the correct times that these MB principles can be highly effective. Getting there and knowing when is the hard part. <BR> <BR>I'm in Plan B and I have noticed more changes in my WS' behavior in the last 2 months then in the entire period of this whole affair. So I say..don't be afraid of Plan B...it really is part of the process and a necessary part.<P><BR>Angels and Prayers ~ Faye<BR>

Hi all,<P>Great comments. Giving me a lot to think about. So here goes my 2 cents. <P>Plan A is to help the BS make changes for themselves. See where the BS personally can make an impact on helping themselves first, then if allowed with their WS. Once that is determined, lingering in Plan A could cause the WS to be complacent. Especially for the WSs' who are not really sorry for their actions. Sometimes lingering too long in plan A makes the WS take the BS for granted.<P>For me, I went from plan A to B quicker than I realized. I told WS I love you but not your actions. WS said, "I don't want to hurt you." I said "You already did." WS said 'I need space', I said 'go'. Love hurts when we see someone leave knowing this is a wrong decision. But holding on to someone who is fighting you tooth and nail is futile. No real progress can be made during that time. <P>For me, progress was made when I made that 'scary' leap to plan B. I do not regret it. It was not as scary as I imagined (and boy I have a good imagination). <P>H told me that I treated him different after he moved out. I said "yes, that is because I care about those who I live with and that takes up a lot of my time and energy. Now that you (H) no longer are a member of this household, I can no longer expend the time and energy worrying and caring about you as when you were in this home." H remembered that, now we both knew that he gave up the care and concern reserved only for those who lived in our house. This had an impact on H. Stability and a healthy routine are often not part of an A, but when reality sets in that is what is missed. Hard to plan for the future, when your life is in turmoil. <P>While plan B is general (as with plan A), the overall concept is to use B while the marriage can be saved. If divorce is forthcoming, then B is done. On the other hand there is no guarantee that the divorce will not turn back and the marriage may again have a chance. Nothing in life is guaranteed to stay (at least where people are involved). People can always change for the good or bad. These plans are just guides to help us through these awful times. <P>In plan B, I reconciled myself to be prepared for the worst, divorce. H said he didn't want a divorce but needed to get one. Go figure. I did not stop him. Told him if that is what he was going to do then he needed to do it. He asked for my help, I told him that was his decision and his job to figure out what to do (he needed access to our financial records which I held - oh well). I also told him that if I chose to proceed with a divorce, then I would also do it myself. <P>Shortly after that, H talked about coming home. I love my H, but refused to let him walk over me with me only being nice. I am not a doormat, I am the host of my home and proud of it. If H wants to come back, he needs to show what value he will be bringing back to the family. No value, no family. Sounds tough and it is. I am trying to stick to my words but I know it is hard. H is being more honest and open with me, he is commenting on spending quality time with his family. We will see. <P>Anyway looks like I said more than my 2 cents. Great posts from all.<P>L.

Plan A is nothing more or less than your rendition of what you <I>should</I> be in the marriage. There is nothing servile or sycophantic about it.<P>If an affair thrives on the meeting of needs that are lacking at home, Plan A should throttle it more or less quickly, depending on how emotionally deep it has sunk its harpoon. <P>When a proper Plan A has failed, Plan B stops the BS from expending energy where it seemingly does no good, and cuts the WS loose to find out if OP <I>really can</I> do them more good than BS. I think Plan B extends until reconciliation, or BS "moves on" to another person, or WS fails in attempting to reconcile, or BS dies.<P>A Plan A gone overtime is simply a waste. The trouble is determining where the point of diminishing returns has been reached. Better to err on the side of too much than risk falling short--BS's shortcomings contributed to the A in the first place.<P>Time frames are of course relevant, but individuated. The Harleys can supply more and better detail in person or in Steve's writings.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited March 01, 2001).]

Plan B does in a sense get you and the WS ready for divorce. It lets you both know what it is going to be like. It gives the BS a chance to actually let go and go on with their own lives. It is very hard to implement but in time it does get easier. A good friend put it in her own words which helped my impliment it...She said when you stop calling him and start living your own life and you are no longer at his beck and call he will get curious over time-even though we know that the fog does not let them have curiosity about the BS it does give us a different way of looking at it. All of a sudden they are thrown into the arms of their lover!!! All of a sudden they are getting wanted they wanted!!! Also, you will not have to live with sooooo much pain. Plan B also gives you independence. All utilities are now in my name, the bank account a credit card account will follow next week. Most of my H's stuff is out of the house. It shows him I am moving on -he is free... paperwork has been filed against me. After a month of Plan B I no longer have that urge to call my H, him and OW no longer have me to talk about-they have NO info on me!!! When H did come and pack up his belongings reality hit-he could not finish his task, got sick (pretty certain on this I was not there BUT the bath looked like he got sick-I had to clean it-YUCK!!) and than left. (His aunt called during this and it was harder than he tought it would be he said). I can just imagine how this next month will be....Private Lies describes that the BS's pleading and anger are just unpleasant racket- I imagine a fly buzzing around my head. We all know that most affairs die within time especially when we let go and give them the chance to die a natural death...

I must disagree that Plan B prepares the BS for anything. I doubt that I spend more than 5 minutes a month talking to my H, and that is entirely about the kids and logistics. I manage virtually everything on my own, because the OW won't even allow him to take all four younger kids in order for me to take the older ones to college. It has not gotten easier with time - in fact it has continued to get more difficult. I do not love him less; I do not miss him less; I do not dream about him less (still virtually every night). His crummy treatment of me and the kids certainly makes me angry, but does not make me love him less.

I echo that counseling is very important, no matter how A or B goes.<P>I've both done Plan A--18 months--and received Plan A--about 4 months. I burned out with Plan A, was unsuccessful with B, I gave H the letter 2 times, about 5 months apart. When H left the 7th time, I just wanted a life back and did what my counselor suggested, acting "as if divorced". I wasn't acting...I served D papers because I wanted it.<P>At that point, H Plan A'ed me. I know there were points at which he thought it was absolutely useless...but as he has told me since, he knew what an effect it had had on him. He knew during my Plan A that I loved him...more than he imagined. And, Plan A worked on me--that most dreaded of betrayed spouses, the one whose lovebank has dried up and who no longer wants the marriage either, and has begun to date.<P>One size does not fit all. But the question to keep in mind is that many affairs do break down in the 6 month to 2 year period...as a betrayed spouse, do you want to be emotionally available to the WS when that happens? What will make that possible for you?

Okay, good discussion and all, but I for me, I never looked at Plan A as a way to "reward bad behavior"--then again, my view is a little skewed, isn't it? <P>Anyway, I always looked at Plan A as 98% working on me: becoming the kind of person I am capable of becoming, investigating behaviors and working to change myself. For example, as you know, one of my own personal "bad spirits" is hanging onto stuff, holding it over, and having difficulty forgiving and letting it go. Thus, Plan A (IMHO) would not be letting him get away with stuff and blindly forgiving him. Plan A would be admitting to myself that I have a problem in this area and working to do better at being forgiving. The hope is that when the doodoo hits the fan, I might fall back into holding onto it from habit, then remember that this is my area, then forgive--and the basic change of behavior would be "shocking" enough for him to see it and go, "Wow, that's a change!"<P>In my mind, this is not the actions of a doormat, but rather almost the exact opposite--I am becoming the best I can be, and if he sees that as attractive, well then yahoo for me. If he does not see that as attractive, I still have the self-esteem to say I am the best me that I can be! Also, as someone who loves another person, I would want to know what builds love and what hurts the person I love, and I would want to do more of the things that build love and do less of the things that hurt. In a wierd way, that part is just common sense.<P>I hear what people are saying about rewarding bad behavior and an escalating competition, but I have to be honest--I don't think that's really Plan A, and I don't think that's what the Harley's had in mind. In fact, I'd say it's the exact opposite of the intention, because Plan B is quite a bit about standing up for yourself and not being a doormat. I can't imagine my H sneaking off with the OW and my reaction would be meeting his ENs at the cost of my own self-esteem -OR- avoiding a discussion that needs to take place because it might be an LB. That really would be having his cake and eating it too!! What I can imagine, though, is staying true to myself. If he is sneaking off with the OW, I can still work on being a more forgiving person. See what I mean? It's about personal power, not about letting him have power over me.<P>Well, I could ramble, but here's my challenging question then. If Plan A is not forever, then when do you stop? What are the circumstances under which I would want to stop being the best I can be, trying to avoid LBs and trying to meet ENs? Honestly, that seems illogical to me, but I will keep an open mind until you can explain some of your thoughts to me! <P>CJ<BR><P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

How do you plan B when the WS won't move out. Have been Plan A'ing for over a year myself. Three kids have required a great deal of attention and my H has felt abandoned. Has told that to co-worker who wanted to step in to help. Turned into an A.<BR>At first I couldn't believe it, begged him not to go. But then, as things seemed to go on with OW, I said "you can go if you want". I said that several times over the past 8 months. But he won't go! I still want to plan A because it feels good to me. Also our lives are changing now that 3 kids will be in school full time and will give us much needed time together, working and playing. So I want to wait and see, but anytime I have suggested he go, he won't. OW has chided me on several occaisions that I should just throw him out and get it over with. I don't see thowing someone out as a Plan B manouver, is it? And I just can't seem to give the OW the satisfaction of throwing my H out.

Bump!<p>THIS IS AN MB REQUIREMENT MUST READ FOR ALL<p>[ December 13, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

For Newbies to PLAN A!<p>READ READ READ!<p>Lv,
Jo

<<<If Plan A is not forever, then when do you stop? What are the circumstances under which I would want to stop being the best I can be, trying to avoid LBs and trying to meet ENs?>>><p>I think you stop when you know that your spouse is still seeing the other person. If you don't, you are only allowing them to have both of you. <p>Do you call that a marriage? I don't. It seems like a strange concept for a site and method that calls itself "Marriage Builders."<p>When your wayward spouse knows that you know that he/she is still seeing someone on the side, but all you do is try to make him/her happy, what does that tell him/her?<p>That it really doesn't bother you, that you really don't mind what they're doing? (It sure doesn't seem like it bothers you. You're always more than happy to see him and spend time with him and even have sex with him.)<p>That you hope he'll see what a great spouse you really are and decide he likes you *much* better than that Other Person? (Isn't this what high school kids do? Works for them, doesn't it?)<p>No. All it does it destroy the last shred of respect for you that the cheater may have had, because it tells them loud and clear that they have free rein to spend as much time as they want with both their spouse and their side dish with absolutely *no* penalty of any kind.<p>By the time one spouse has gone so far as to start a relationship - either EA or PA or both - with a third party, it is way, way, way too late to try to change their minds with "Plan A."<p>If the cheater has come clean and given up the OP and actually seems to want the marriage, I can certainly see using "Plan A" to help repair the damage. This assumes that *both* partners are doing "Plan A."<p>Otherwise, an immediate Plan B is called for. You don't have to get angry. You don't have to "Love Bust." But you do have to put a stop to the cheater having both you and the OP. And since you usually can't remove the OP, the only thing you can do is remove yourself.<p>If you sit around waiting for the cheating spouse to do the right thing and end the affair, you will end up like so many of the tortured souls I see here -- anxiously waiting at home while their cheating spouse is out on a date with the OP and then posting things like, "I refused to make dinner for him when he came back! Did I LB??"<p>It's heartbreaking to read posts like that. It's like Chinese Water Torture. I am certain that "Plan A" is not supposed to promote that kind of agony.<p>Surely it's not supposed to enable a cheating spouse to have a comfortable cheating lifestyle. Surely it's supposed to help teach people how to be married -- but you can't be married when there are three of you involved. Again -- is that a marriage?<p>I wish the Harleys would make it clear that no one should be expected to use "Plan A" with a spouse who is already involved with someone else. By all means use it once the affair has broken off, but to do otherwise causes far too much torment for the betrayed spouse.

I'm a FBS, and find this thread really relevant. H and I are now in recovery, we're 9 months past the last contact. My recovery is going well, but the marital recovery is severely restricted by my inability to let him back in. Just yesterday we were talking about my therapy for acute clinical depression and post-traumatic stress disorder. This is what my FWH said:<p>He did not "hear" what I was saying, did not "see" my pain, did not believe his ongoing interaction with XOW was genuinely harmful and dangerous, first in the romantic EA phase (7 months) and then the "just wanna be friends" phase (8 months) BECAUSE I STAYED AND IN GENERAL LIVING WITH ME WAS SO PLEASANT. Except, of course, for the LB scenes. He admitted that I had said often, very clearly, and with emphasis varying from reasonable and logical, to massive tantrums, that I could not handle the situation and the marriage was being further damaged with every single day he kept his interaction with her alive. But he didn't really hear because he didn't want to face the facts.<p>I asked him what I could have said to bring it home to him, make my pain real to him. He said I did all I could, and he remembers with shame and guilt just how much pain I was going through. I got physically ill with all the stress. I asked what would have happened had I left and gone into Plan B. He said that would probably have been the only thing to snap him into reality, that he still remembers the panic states he got into when he thought I would go. Those were the times when he would "end" it with her. Then, as soon as we'd made up, especially if we made love, he'd figure that things were good so obviously I wasn't really hurting. For a while he even felt resentment towards me for my tears and my physical breakdown, because he thought I was trying to manipulate him and emotionally blackmail and control him. He loved and wanted me, but he loved and wanted her too, and his goal was actually to keep us both, hope that both of us would adjust to the status quo. He kept telling himself that it was actually okay because I hadn't left.<p>So there you have it. It has to be weighed up carefully. The 15 months I stayed deposited lots of LUs; FWH now behaves as if he's genuinely in love with me. My Love Bank went so far into the red that the only way now for us to recover is for me to declare bankruptcy on that account and open a new one for him.<p>[ December 17, 2001: Message edited by: juststartingover ]</p>

juststartingover,<p>That is exactly what I was talking about. Thank you.<p>Psycho_B***h