You're welcome, PB! Of course I disagree with both halves of your name...<p>I bitterly regret that I did not go into Plan B the very first time my FWH transgressed the boundaries we jointly set up after D-day. It would have saved so much pain, protected my love for him, and I would not now be facing a year of intensive IC and medication. Think what it would have saved my FWH! He said that one of the worst things he's living with now is that he has lost his honour. I at least have my self-respect back, because my IC pointed out to me that I had throughout this mess acted "in good faith." And the marriage would have had a much solider, healthier foundation now.

psycho:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I wish the Harleys would make it clear that no one should be expected to use "Plan A" with a spouse who is already involved with someone else. By all means use it once the affair has broken off, but to do otherwise causes far too much torment for the betrayed spouse.<hr></blockquote><p>The Harley's won't do this, because you misunderstand the deployment of Plan A. It is specifically for an ACTIVE affair. It's a proactive response to an affair. When confronted with an affair, the best thing the betrayed spouse can do is to take an inventory of their marriage skills---and to see if they contributed to the breakdown of the relationship (assuming you're not dealing with a serial "sex addict"). If you can see that you were guilty of lovebusting (or not meeting needs), then Plan A is a period of time in which you learn to correct those issues by learning new marital behavior---with a goal to demonstrate these new behaviors to your spouse, to negotiate an end of the affair.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Surely it's not supposed to enable a cheating spouse to have a comfortable cheating lifestyle. Surely it's supposed to help teach people how to be married -- but you can't be married when there are three of you involved. Again -- is that a marriage?<hr></blockquote><p>It's not supposed to enable a cheating lifestyle. There is no doubt that you can Plan A and use the rule of Radical Honesty to let your spouse know in no uncertain terms that you don't approve of their affair. You need to learn to do that without lovebusters, however. And as Distressed states in her post, Plan A is not supposed to be executed without a time limit. It should be long enough to demonstrate a clear track record of changed behavior to the wayward spouse (probably 2 months is a good rule of thumb for minimum). It shouldn't be so long that it ends up to be a torture and ends up killing the love you have for your spouse. The combo of Plan A and B are recommended for 2 years---because that's the timeframe that the majority of affairs end.<p>You have to ask yourself "what IS a marriage?" If you believe it's a promise of faithfulness to love someone---then this stuff is completely consistant. It's really easy to love someone who loves you and treats you well. It's harder to demonstrate love (the verb---not the "romantic love" feeling) when your spouse is having an affair. But it's often more effective than the alternative you suggest---which is to go directly to Plan B. That situation WILL work in marriages in which the betrayed spouse isn't guilty of lovebusting or completely ignoring needs, especially if the affair isn't "serious". In other words---in easy cases (if there is such a thing). But Plan A and B applied together can be equally successful. And in a marriage like mine (where my wife felt unloved, neglected, and abused), I can pretty much guarantee you that we would have never survived if I had gone to an immediate Plan B.<p>One final note---I really feel that although Plan A and B can be a DIY project, you are 1000% better off to do this with one of the Harley's counseling you (888-639-1639 for appointments). Steve or Jenn can help encourage you, keep an eye on how much of the "crap" you can take, and effectively transition you to Plan B when the time is ready. I know that when Plan B was suggested to me, I thought it was too early. In hindsight, it was perfect timing. Steve did an excellent job helping me deal with my emotions, and keeping on the overall plan of saving and rebuilding the marriage.

Time for DAS Bump! ^

It's not true about continuing cheaters being intitled to Plan A. Dr Harley's books make it clear that Plan A is only for the spouse trying to extricate him or herself from the affair. Sometimes they fail and go back to the affair, then the time comes for Plan B.

Bump^

Bump ^

I just posted these comments on another thread. It definitely is worth the read to get a better understanding of the Plan A and B principles. Of course, every situation is so different and unique and finding the timing and steps to take is an exhausting job to say the least.<p>I can't seem to get the picture of Plan A that is spoken of on these threads. When I read Harley's explanation:
"Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands."
AND
"But plan A, an effort to end the affair with thoughtfulness and care, doesn't always work."<p>As I discovered my WS and his inappropriate involvment with OW, I knew I could not live with a third party in our lives. I spent months confronting in a loving way and learning how to survive this with dignity and grace. I also knew that I could not stamp my feet and cry and name call to make our marriage work better. I read and read and read how to keep my sanity in an insane situation. I prayed and prayed and prayed that God would give me the power to do the right thing. I knew that I had to respect WS but I did not have to accept his adultery. I knew I had to make it very clear that his choices were very painful to me but I did it with repsect and desire to understand him and his feelings. WS COULD NOT SEPARATE HIMSELF FROM OW so I forced WS to leave so that I could grow and heal. To even show my concern and love, I went to bargain stores and garage sales to get him what he needed to set up housekeeping when he left. I have become a better person through it all but I WAS NOT BAD BEFORE. I was loving and caring but had a few weaknesses that needed work....work by both of us--most marital problems need both partners to work on them. <p>I believe, in my situation, that my WS has made an inappropriate choice that is damaging to himself and so many others. I do not ignore his shanigans...I don't avoid talking about it but I do respect that he is a thinking and reasoning human being who has choices. I just do not have to be a part of the worst choice of his life-----an A. <p>Doesn't Plan A call for no contact between WS and OW/M? <p>I say yes-----but if you strive to see the end of the A in a caring way, you will grow and be a better person for it and have little or no regrets.<p>TW

I agree with TW. I just reread Plan A and it definitely states that it will not succeed without WS agreeing to absolutely no contact with OW/M. I am very confused by this thread and the information given in Plan A. Am I misinterpreting Plan A? Where does it say that it is OK to stay in Plan A if the WS is still actively in A? I guess I just need some clarification for my own peace of mind.
BH<p>[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: brokenhearted ]</p>

As I read Plan A, I do not see where it says to do some of the things suggested by some...like never say anything about the A, fill the WS EN and never do anything to confront a horrible situation. <p>Maybe I am missing something....is there suggestions like that in the book? I have only read the website version but I cannot image the book saying anything opposite than the website.
TW

<p>[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: MMMMM ]</p>

Big BUMP for newbies.

I don't know why people think plan A requires no contact between WS and OP. In the book, SAA, there are 2 examples. Jon and Sue, and Kevin and Lee. The first case, contact continued during Jon's plan A, and plan B was necessary. The second case, no contact was agreed to by Kevin so the EA ended. In my case, Steve Harley counseled me to continue in plan A for several months even though my wife continued affairs.<p>Plan A is to change some of your behaviors, and demonstrate that change to your spouse. That should be done even if the spouse continues affair. Whether the marriage is saved or not. It does not mean you are a doormat or simply acquiesce in the affairs, but you still have to demonstrate change. Avoid "love-busting", but you still communicate the affair is not acceptable. Just do it without being disrespectful. If the spouse won't stop, you run out of energy, and you've done plan A long enough to demonstrate change, then it's time for plan B.<p>If you insist on no contact before plan A, that's an ultimatum and it has little chance of working. If only it were that simple.<p>If the WS does agree to no contact, and keeps that promise, then you are really at the beginning of recovery. Like Kevin and Lee in the book. Wish I was there.<p>- Tom

bump ^ ^ ^

Bump^^

Bump!

Bumpitybump.

Time for 'nuther Bump! ^

up up up [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Bump for Seahorse and newbies ...<p>Jo

Bumpity Bump!