This is about your response to PainForever. Why on earth are you on a MARRIAGE BUILDERS site encourage husbands who are obviously DEEP IN THE FOG to leave their families?<P>You telling him that he had "obviously done everything you could to save the marriage " is downright ridiculous if not comical. Here is a man unable to accept responsibility for his actions, pining away for some fantasy. This, IMHO, is NOT working on the marriage. It's wallowing in the "woe is me" self-pity-party that comes with no longer having your cake and eating it too. <P>He says his marriage was a mess before the A happened. Obviously his W knows this too or she wouldn't be willing to stay and try to fix things. And there is a part of him in there that KNOWS his marriage is worth saving or he wouldn't be here posting, looking for ways to do it. <P>Your response really made me angry. You should know well enough to give a positive answer when someone is OBVIOUSLY in need of one. Sounds like you haven't had much experience with relationships at ALL. <P>Please don't project your desires onto other peoples marriages. Most of us here want them to work out and only go to the D place after all avenues have truly been explored and all efforts exhausted. <P>Snow<P>

Hi Snow<P>I’m sorry if my post made you angry. I’m definitely NOT encouraging ANYONE to leave their families. I have read a lot of Painforevers posts and my opinion was based on all of them. Not just the one that I responded to. When I said "obviously done everything you could to save the marriage " that comment was based on what I have read in his other posts and as I see it he has worked a lot on his marriage. I believe he has a long thread on the ”divorced/divorce-board. <P>I believe that I’m entitled to an opinion just as everyone else and I feel for Painforever and his situation. So I addressed HIS post. As for what HE KNOWS or DOES or if he is taking resposibility for his actions etc. I think that is for him to answer.<P>As for why I’m on this board - I have my reasons and I have received a lot of support and help here wich I am thankful for. If I made you angry then I’m sorry. Your post really hurt. I’m not a person that gets upset easily but I think you should get your facts straight before you attack someone you know nothing about.<P>Regardless of what you think I do hope that marriages can be worked out even after an A.<P>Best of luck to you - and I do mean that.<BR>

Humble,<P>I'm sorry -- there was not "personal" attack intended on my part. I've read his posts before and then re-read them before posting this to you. I just don't see where he has really "tried". <P>He said he's been to a see counselors. I can tell you from personal experiences and from the experiences of "real life" friends that often counselors will blow you off or worse, give you horrible advice without even knowing you well. My first told me to just "get over it" after ONE SESSION! This man knew nothing about me or my family or the extent of my H's cheating at that point. Another (a woman) told me after one session that I should definitely leave but understand that I would be alone forthe rest of my life if that were the case. <P>Painforever sounds like a confused, hurt person unsure of what he really wants. I too waffled for a long time, BEFORE I had proof of my H's affairs, thinking I was trying but now I realize that I wasn't. I was too stuck in the thick of it, too depressed, too alone to do anything about it. <P>One thing I HAVE learned for certain is that you don't make major life decisions in the midst of turmoil and depression. You need to deal with that first. Another thing is that you don't tell people to end their marriages when they are depressed. That just seems like common sense to me. <P>Painforevers marriage was a trainwreck before he decided to have the affair. Seems to me the affair happened because he was trying to escape, rather than work on it. Same for his wife's infidelities. <P>As for you personally, I have no problem with OW being here and trying to get better. The OP posts offer a point of view that most of us would not otherwise see. Give and take. It's what life is all about. <P>If you only heard the way my H talked about the OW (all one-night-stands) you would, as I do, feel nothing but sympathy for them. This man is obviously a mysoginist who thinks that women "owe" him sex whenever he feels like it. He had no problem simply "using" their bodies to satisfy himself and then coming home to his family, wondering why in the world I couldn't trust him... Some of the things he's said about them... God, I would feel much better about him as a HUMAN BEING if he could show some sort of remorse for what he did to THEM, also. <P>Snow<P>

Snow, <P>Thanks for your reply. I hope there are no hard feelings between us. I guess I’m a bit touchy today and I perhaps overreacted to your post.<P>I see your point of view and agree that no one should make ” make major life decisions in the midst of turmoil and depression”. I didn’t mean to imply that Painforever should end his marriage but I understand that that is how it must have sounded. I was only trying to say that if you have tried everything and it still doesn’t work perhaps it’s time to let go.<P>I think that we think differently about how much he has ”tried”. Perhaps it’s because how we interpret what we read or because we have different life experiences to compare with. <P>” Painforevers marriage was a trainwreck before he decided to have the affair. Seems to me the affair happened because he was trying to escape, rather than work on it. Same for his wife's infidelities”<P>As I read it they wore separated quite some time before he had the affair. So that lead me to believe that the affair was not the main issue here. Perhaps it became an ”escape” in the end, but the A in itself was not the problem as I see it at least not to begin with. I see your point when you say that regardless they should have worked on the marriage much earlier - long before the affair begun. Perhaps you are right. I won’t go into that I think that Painforever is the only one together with his W who knows the whole story.<P>Anyway I feel like I’m talking a lot ”over his head” - Hey Painforever, if you read this, sorry If I make a lot of assumptions that are totally of base.<P>Snow, I’m sorry to hear about your husband and the way he treats you and other women. I don’t know your situation but nobody deserves to be treated that way. Perhaps that sounds hypocritical coming from an OW. But I’m learning - even though I’m a slow learner. But I’m really trying to get on with my life and to end my relationship with the MM. <P>Take Care<P>HumbleFish<P>

Humble --<P>No hard feelings and likewise. We all come here with our own experiences and see things through our own lens. And yes, I too apologize to PainForever for speaking over his head. <P>And no, your comments about my H do not sound hypocritical. People have no business treating other PEOPLE that way, period, whether they are married to them, having affairs with them or whatever. My H's personal problem, as I see it, is his out of control ego and the apparent belief that he should be able to do whatever he wants to whomever he wants whenever he feels like it. The world is his and his alone. I think all WSs feel a LITTLE bit of that while they are in the fog. Thankfully, some get out and get their act together. Wish mine would have. <P>BTW, I do commend you for your work on trying to get out of the mess you're involved in. The only honorable, sane thing to do is end it, but you already know that.<P>I want you to know too, I've spoken to my H's first(?) OW, and she feels the same way about him I do. She has a lot of healing to do herself -- she sees the whole episode with my H much as Date Rape and has thought long and hard about pressing chrages. It was this last converssation with her that finally pushed me over the edge and into divorce. And I have every reason to believe her. My H admitted to me once that another girl (before we were married) accused him of the same thing and he just didn't GET IT. <P>We will, we can, ALL heal. <P>Peace,<P>Snow