Okay. I was silly and listened to his cell voicemail...again. Heard her voice again...I keep telling myself to quit torturing myself, but it is soooooooo hard.<P>It has been almost 7wks since d-day. Said he 'fantasized' about her 5 yrs ago. EA started???early Jan. (only a guess) went to PA in March. Summer is about to start and they will not be able to see each other as easily...(they work together at the same school.)<P>Tell me that as I am successful in changing myself and doing a really good plan A, that if I don't blow it with LB's (I read the book last night), that as we do more stuff together this summer we can reconnect and their A will start to disinigrate. <P>I've read the success stories. I've 'heard' the disbelief in other women's and men's posts when their WS came home. (Mine has not left and doesn't seem to have any intention of leaving...but neither will he agree to no contact yet.)<P>Just need some reassurance....<P>AKA: InShockinCali<P>------------------<BR>Cali<P><I> Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you. </I><BR>1 Peter 5:6-7

Ok Cali,<P>Let me get out my crystal ball.<BR><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Tell me that as I am successful in changing myself and doing a really good plan A, that if I don't blow it with LB's (I read the book last night), that as we do more stuff together this summer we can reconnect and their A will start to disinigrate.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>Nope can't tell you that...but you'll increase the likelihood of reconnecting. If I could wave my wand and *poof* make it all better I would.<P>One thing I can tell you is that if you even come close to doing what's right...you'll have a lot more long term respect for yourself.<P>dd <P> <p>[This message has been edited by dumbdumb (edited June 11, 2001).]

Like you've been told, by doing everything right you increase the odds of restoring your marriage. There are no guarantees, so you just have to do your best. Easier said than done, but you do feel better for it.<P>For what it is worth, if he fantasized about her 5 years ago, it is just my opinion that this realization of that fantasy is a bit of fuel to the affair, but the upside might be when the fuel runs out....it might help the disintegration because it was a fantasy, and true light will shine at some point.<P>Just adhere to your new name, and you'll be fine.<P>Read some of lostva's posts. I always those to be so inspirational, because they really illustrate the complete reversal that can occur in a WS.<P>I think that someday you'd have to force the issue if there was not an agreement to no contact, and ask him to move. But that doesn't have to be for some time. I might get blasted for saying that....I think it is rare that the WS continues and wants to stay home...usually they have a plan to leave.<P>If that ever happened, you'd still be in the drivers seat in my opinion, because you can Plan A till that day, and then move right to Plan B. The shock effect of Plan B would then be maximized. But for now, he is still there, so Plan A him and do it all right so he sees what his best option is.<P>We want to see "EvenStrongerInCali" at some point.<BR>

Well... I'm not your husband. But I am a (WS) heres what I did.<P>I had an (A) I came home, my wife knew about the affair. Didn't tell me she knew so I continued to hide it. I asked her for a divorce. I then admitted to the (A). She then told me she knew about it allready. I paniced at the retrobution and consequences of my actions. I avoided her a lot, but I wasn't ready to give up (OW) just yet. So I had an argument with (OW) which basically we cut our loses. Said our goodbyes, and I figured things were done and over with. So I ran home, and said I'll work on our marriage. ("But I hadn't really been commited to doing so yet.") So I just said these things. I didn't feel these things, or really want these things. I then made up with (OW) and the next day, I turned around and asked my wife that we be seperated, as I wasn't sure of divorce just yet. I was always unsure as thats a final resolution to a lot of people, and while I still loved my wife, I was being fed a lot of information from (OW) about how nasty and awefull she was. So I started to almost believe these things myself, and only see these things. So the longer I stayed away from my wife the better off I was.<P>Well with (OW's) constant manipulation, and her telling me, that I don't need to put up with the crap from my wife, and her telling me, that she's going to leave me too unless I leave. As she's afraid, i'll go back to my wife. I moved out. This from the same person who said ("I'll never leave you like your wife did, I'll be with you always, and I'll take care of you, and i'll love you forever.")<P>So I paniced and felt I had no choice. I felt my wife was all ready upset with me, she must hate me by now. This is the best for everyone. Right? Because I see how much i've hurt her, its very hard for me to even look at her. I can't even look myself in the eye in a mirror anymore. I hate me, and she must as well. So the only person who's really saying I love you. ("Because I'm talking to her 24 hours a day, 7 days a week is the (OW) is now telling me, if I don't leave my wife, she's leaving me.")<P>Well, I move out. I have no intention of going back at this point. No intention of even seeing my wife again. No intention of even really talking with her ever again, and I'll be filling for divorce soon. The sooner the better right? Because then the (OW) will know i'm serious about her and I wont ever be getting back with my wife.<P>Weeks go by, I don't contact my wife, and (OW) and I talk all the time. Mean while she's bashing my wife any time and any chance she gets. I find my self saying some things that are nasty as well. This after all reaffirms the (OW's) feelings on us. She wont leave me that way. Since I all ready feel like my wife has left me.<P>I talk to family and friends about our situation, and all the while saying, i'm getting a divorce. So they need to be prepared. Meanwhile the reality of (OW) and I have set in, we are constantly fighting. ("She's a real winner folks.")But i'm still freaked out, because she says I hate you, then turns and says. I love you, and i'm sorry. More manipulation.<P>I finally get a chance to sit down with a family member, and we talk, and I say whatever it is that was on my mind, really let it out, and how I feel. The advice I was given was this ("It would be a mistake to continue a mistake") I stop, and I really think about this for a moment. A mistake to continue a mistake. I've been making so many mistakes lately, and I look at this latest and greatest mistake. I stop and think. I can change this. It's not to late. I can change this. I will change this, and stop the circle, stop the mistake from happening. Instead of running away from it. I have been running so long. It was time to stop. Time to look at the damage i've done, see what I can repair. See how I can now focus all this negative energy, turning it into postive energy towards solving these problems with my wife.<P>So still a little weary about it all. I tredged slowly in that direction. Because at this time I figured my wife pretty much hated me. She stayed strong, stayed focused on solving her own problems, growing and learning as well. Learning about my needs, learning what she can do in our marriage to help make it work. Helping her self, and showing me that she's the woman I fell in love with. The strong, independant, fun, caring, woman I loved from the very beginning.<P>Slowly I tredged down that path unsure that I was heading the right way. At least not yet. So I started examining all the things that i've seen from both sides of it. I looked objectively, and saw that my wife has been an inspiration to me, she's so strong, so postive, and never lost hope in me, even when I told her to leave me alone. It was for the best. She always loved me, never stopped loving me. Prayed for me. <P>The (OW) has done nothing for me. She just was so negative towards my wife, so negative towards us in the end. So constantly manipulating me, it was hard to see that at first. She'd hold one hand out with love towards me, and the other she would silently place a dagger in my back, making sure I did this or that, because if I didn't she'd leave me. That scared me, no one likes to be abandonded. So I hoped around like a puppet. Made choices that didn't agree with me and from those negative choices rose this negativity in general. I couldn't place my finger on what I was upset about, so angry about. I couldn't see the manipulation at first. I didn't want to see it.<P>Well I got sick of that constant tugging, when everything changes, no one is comfortable, and everyone reacts. I reacted all right. I just had not realized that I was only beginning to see that I was doing all of these things for her, and not myself.<P>So I ended my relationship with (OW) and today? Well I am in recovery. Working towards the life I was working for in the beginning with my wife. Working towards our hopes, goals, and dreams. Working towards our family.<P>She's an amazing woman. Amazing she didn't go insane, from all I put her through. Amazing she was so strong through all of it. She's a unique woman. I love her with all my heart, and I always will. I knew we can do anything together, and i'm very regretful for everything I did. Very disgusted with myself over everything I did. She has forgiven me, and I will too. It takes time.<P>The moral of the story StrongerInCali, I had no intention of going back to my wife. It took me time to realize I was continuing a mistake ("No one likes to be wrong") It took me time to realize that I was a chess pawn in a game also, and I put myself there. It took me time to realize that I was hurting a very good woman who stood by me in all of this. It took me time to realize it wasn't her fault, and I needed to communicate with her in the beginning as I am now. What I am thinking, feeling, and dreaming, wondering. All those questions and more.<P>Have hope. I was the last person in the world I thought would ever have an (A) and I was also the last person in the world that thought I would ever end up getting back together with my wife. It's okay to have hope. Even when people like me (WS) tells you diffrently. It's only because we feel guilty for putting you (BS's) into that position in the first place, and we are running away.<P>My situation isn't exactly like your husbands, but perhaps the key is not all of us are the same in circumstances, however hopefully this will give you some hope and inspiration of your own.<P>Good luck, stay strong. My wife did, and I'm coming home soon <P>H.

dd-<BR>Yeah, I know I was asking for a lot. No one has a crystal ball. I felt pretty good all weekend and even today, then just one silly move on my part (voicemail) and I falter.<P>Rick37-<BR>I will definitely do a search on lostva's posts. Thanks--I'm working really hard on A. <P>[H]--<BR>I have been reading your posts all day today and was hoping you would respond. What you described is what I am "envisioning." One of the things I tell kids is that if you can see your goal...if you can play it like a movie in your head...you have more of a chance of attaining it.<P>Oh, to all...did I mention that OW is in the second year of her 4th marriage? <P>Thanks for all your inspiration and reassurance.<P>Cali

Well I am glad I could be of hope and inspiration. My wife and I are so excited, and so happy these days. We've just been taking small steps, and communicating a lot. Anything and everything on our minds. Putting it back out on the table where it should have been. So it's been a great and wonderful time for us again, as we see our plans, goals, and dreams show right back up. So formiliar to us all ready.<P>Keep up the hope StrongerInCali, no reason not to. Incidently thats one of the reasons I went back to my wife. I saw how she was again this strong woman. How she was so driven again. How she was so hopefull for us, even in the darkest of moments. Some of the qualities I loved about her in the beginning was she was (outgoing, strong, and driven)<P>H.<p>[This message has been edited by [H] (edited June 11, 2001).]

Stongerincali,<BR>I too heard the voice many times. I had his passwords for everything and at the time he was so "foggy" he never thought about it.<BR>I knew when she was paging him. I knew every number that paged him, I heard her voice messages( actually sometimes Ieven heard them before he did!)<P>My friend it can work, but there are no guaranteees in life. Many cases passed trough this forum. In some cases it worked, in some it didn't.<BR>What happened on both cases is that as you do the right things, you are doing your part. If it works it's the best thing in the world. If it doesn't you certainly increased your self-respect and know that YOU did everything that you could do.<BR>Does it increase the odds? I tend to think so, for various reasons. But it's necessary to keep your mind clear and be realistic. I used the "expect the best, prepare for the worse" approach. <BR>Nothing works on every single situation. Your situation though, resembles mine in part, and I'm on the third year of recovery enjoying . DOes it mean it will work in your case? I don't know.<BR> But let me ask you one thing. When you talk about changing yourself what do you mean? following the plan you choose , look for the things that seem week in the relationship and fix what can be fixed? If that's it, then it's fine. <BR>If you mean changing into someone you are not, then be very careful. That's not the idea. <P>My husband also never left - although close to the end he was even talking about it -but was reluctant to end the A.<BR>Things went like this from d-day( which was the first week that it started) up about 5 months. It also happened to coincide with summer, and yes, a lot of the things we did together that summer really helped us ( not only him ) of how things used to be before everything else happened.<BR>It was a very stressful summer, but also the time that we spent together , something that wasn't happening for some time.<P>Just give it a try. DO it for the relationship but mostly for you, and make sure that it is what you really want.<P>Hugs<BR>Kat <P>Yes there is a chance that you might reconect, we did. But it might be a rough ride.<P>------------------<BR>"Each and everyone of us is deserving of a gentle thougth, a kind word and the gift of understanding"

Katb-<P>Thank you for your post!<P>This day-to-day confusion is so frustrating for a 'controller' like me. <P>About changing me--<BR>I let myself grow into the 'fat' person my stepfathers insisted was there. (yes, plural--how can a girl get so lucky?) My self-esteem has always been in the toilet about my body and my looks. So--for me--for my 38th birthday on Wednesday, I have been losing weight and exercising. This actually started after Christmas....the infidelity diet just helped it along .<P>I also had some self-realization, also before d-day, about myself. Because of divorce when I was 12, I got stuck in using only child and parent voice...very common in children of divorce. Also, discovered the part about being a controller and using power and aggression to get my way at home...wasn't a pretty discovery. What I didn't know what that H had started EA and couldn't appreciate my talking about the discovery...These things I am changing for me...so I can be a better role model for my children. Odd thing is I had already made these changes in my workplace...was not a happy camper to discover I treated my friends and coworkers better than my family .<P>About his staying--he says he's not abandoning his responsibilities or his family...he actually wants to make sure we are financially stable and in our own home before he moves out. Muy loco en la cabeza. <P>Very personal question: What about intimacy...I'm not even sure I can call it that...my H and I have been 'together' more often since d-day, than before. How can he say he doesn't want to be with me that way...and still....and, yes, sometimes I reached for him and sometimes he has reached for me....<P>Thanks again for inspiration.<P>Cali

Cali,<P>I love it when I see someone post their "ownership" in the relationship and their "self-realization." For now, I really don't care about my W's part in the marital breakdown. That's up to her to figure out...I can't tell or show her...she needs to see it and work on it herself.<P>So Cali, I really have respect for you for SEEING your PART and OWNING it. As much as it pains me to admit my own failures...I now tell people about them and I post them. And yes I'm embarrassed about some of the things I've done...but realize that I'm human, I'm fallible , and I make mistakes. Bottom line, by throwing your "failures" out there for others to see...and showing remorse I really think your able to "walk the talk" and you've taken an important step at <B>action</B> rather than words.<P><BR>(pat, pat, pat on the back)<P>dd<p>[This message has been edited by dumbdumb (edited June 12, 2001).]

Hello my friend <BR>Your situations resembles mine more and more. I too had gained a lot of weight due to meds. I was also 38 at the time it happened. ANd yes...there was intimacy. <BR>This is a tricky one, I suppose and people will have many different opinions. IN my case it worked maybe because this was one of the thinks that seemed to be less fulfilled due to our crazy schedules as well as my ilness.<BR>I have to leave now but I will try to come back later tonight.<BR>If you have and "urgent" ( ) question you can reach me trough e-mail at arka61@hotmail.com I try not to log onto MB while at work, but I can check my e-mail and I will certainly have time to answer - two classes are on a trip so I'll be quite free today.<BR>Hugs<BR>Kat<BR><P>------------------<BR>"Each and everyone of us is deserving of a gentle thougth, a kind word and the gift of understanding"

stronger and kat, I don't know if this makes you feel any better, but my H's OW is very overweight, larger than him and he's a fairly large man. I was "average" before the A, but now "petite" since the infidelity diet. My self-esteem is equally shot and my only weight problem these days is trying to force myself to eat enough!<P>

Thanks dd--<BR>Actually your question helped me to clarify that what I was doing was for myself and not so much to save our marriage. While I hope that the changes I make will help him to see who he fell in love with 15 yrs ago, I know that I started to make these changes before I was aware of A.<P>Katb-<BR>you're a teacher too? lots of similarities. How long were you and H married? Do you have children? H says he just doesn't want to be married (even to OW). H says he wouldn't be leaving to go to her. Says he would be 'dead' without her. What were signs that A was disintigrating? How did you handle the intimacy? We've always been able to connect that way...in fact, I always felt that was the best way we connected...I just wonder if it's just sex for him.<P>Did you do counseling? I almost dread going today. It seems to bring out the worst in one of us (never both the same day). I don't want to go over 'old' issues...I want to move forward...recognize mistakes and learn new ways to communicate...I WILL NEVER BE THE SAME AGAIN. no matter what H says.<P>LetSTry--<BR>My issue is my weight, it was a non-issue for him until A. His concern before then was health. We have actually turned garage into a 'gym.' since d-day and workout together. <BR>OW is 'princess' type. used to getting along in life based on looks and flattery. I am more well-known for intelligence and accomplishments...have always downplayed and sabotaged my 'attractiveness.'<BR>H says main difference between OW and I is that 'she listens to him.' <BR>My point is that I don't think my weight or attractiveness 'sent' him away...I think it was his need to be listened to and to think that he was respected and admired. (He doesn't think that I respect or admire him.)<BR><p>[This message has been edited by StrongerInCali (edited June 12, 2001).]

How are you doing today StrongerInCali? How are things going. I wish I could talk with your H, and tell him what it is that helped me get out of the fog myself. Wish I could help a lot of people here.<P>------------------<BR>H.<P>My advice is my advice. Take the good, disgard the bad. Do whats right for you. Not because I said it worked for me.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by [H]:<BR><B>How are you doing today StrongerInCali? How are things going. I wish I could talk with your H, and tell him what it is that helped me get out of the fog myself. Wish I could help a lot of people here.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>We have counseling in 1 hr and I am scared. He keeps telling therapist he doesn't want to work on marriage. She doesn't know what to do with us...he doesn't want to move out right away either. I want to work on marriage. <P>Otherwise I have been reading old 'Lotsva' posts and 'Katb' posts. Like you, Lotsva's H left to be with OW for awhile. Katb's did not. That's my quandary, he is going to have to leave to really see?<P>I, too, wish he had a friend like yours who was nonjudgemental. He keeps saying "How can I fix this?" and I keep thinking...by not continuing this mistake. What your friend told you about it being a mistake to continue a mistake...but I know he will not 'hear' that from me. <P>I am resolved to be gentle and nonjudgemental about A from this day forward. It serves no purpose except to fuel my anger and hurt. I can't 'make' him feel guilty or remorseful....<P>Thanks for asking [H].<BR>

It's tough. I really respect my friend. That was a big benefit to me to have someone I admired, trusted, and at the same time felt equal with. He's a good man. So that definately helped me out, as I trust his opinions and his views.<P>It's interesting your husband keeps asking "How do I fix this" I too said those same things, and I left to be with (OW) as well. We feel like we need to fix this, or repair the damage entirely. I felt that at times, like theres no way I can repair the damage of this magnitude. So I need to get a divorce to start clean.<P>It took me some time, to recognize I couldn't repair this damage alone. This isn't something I could fix all by myself, as it seems I created all by myself. Thats a common thing I believe. Many of us want to Erase the damage just as easily as it started. That definately can't be done.<P>We just have to start looking for the positives in the situation and say. Well I can't fix this, but I can't help myself with this knowledge now. I can learn from this mistake I made, and grow because of it. With my wifes help of understanding me, and as we communicate, and my understanding of her. We can move past this, with time.<P>So thats the resolution to it for me, I can't fix it by myself, but with her understanding, love and communication with me. We can move past it, and repair the damage.<P>Good luck on counseling. Hope everything goes well. Wish I could just give that glimpse of insight I have to every (WS) out there, and make things so much easier for everyone. I would do it in a heartbeat.<P>H.<p>[This message has been edited by [H] (edited June 12, 2001).]

Yep, I"m a teacher, you too? closer and closer here LOL <BR>We were married for 16 year and have two kids that were 7 and 4 at the time. <BR>Now it gets even more "alike" he also said he wouldn't want to live with her. In his words it would be like "Jumping from the fire into the fire" or however the saying goes.<BR>HOwever for a while his idea was to leave anyway, as soon as finances were straightened out. THe funny thing is that as he kept saying he needed to save money to be able to leave, he kept spending money on things for us or the house that weren't needed or important. ( like eating out, new kitchen table, new things for the computer, a comfortable and relaxing sofa, new speakers, you name it. I used to think that the way things were going we would be old and he would still be trying to save money to leave! ) But that kind of gave me a clue that for all he was saying maybe leaving wasn't really what he wanted to do, either he realised it or not ).<BR>I wish I had time to fish some of my old posts, I think it would help for you to be able to have an idea of how things went. I changed my name a few times because every time my computer crashes I never remember the password. I remember I was Kat1 too. Can't remember the other ones. When I have a bit of time I'll try to find them for you. I think I know where to find some.<P>H was very reluctant to go to counseling.He really has trouble talking about himself or his problems so that was no surprise to me. ANd when we finally did, I could see it wasn't helping much, mostly because any suggestion offered by the counsellor I had already tried or was trying. <BR>It helped me, though. By being able to talk about what was on my mind I was able to get my thoughts in order and create different strategies.<BR>I'm not saying that counselling doesn't work, keep in mind. Just that in our case it didn't work that well.<P>NO, it will never be the same again. ANd it's a good thing too. Look what the "same" brought.<BR>But it can be great again. Just in a more "informed" way <BR>Believe me as you go trough recovery things gain a different perspective. ANd having gone trough this will certainly help as a reminder of what can happen. I don't think about it now, but I don't forget it happened either, and that's the way I want it. Making sure that we don't let pressures from life to interfere in our relationship.<P>I"ll try to be back later. Hope the counseling went well, but don't discourage if it didn't.<P>Hugs<BR>Kat<P>------------------<BR>"Each and everyone of us is deserving of a gentle thougth, a kind word and the gift of understanding"

I hate counseling. I hate counseling. I hate counseling.<P>We started off by saying we're in same place. I want to work on marriage he wants to leave.<P>I started off and talked about changes I had made in myself (weight, adult voice, anger/control) and why. <P>Therapist asked if he still wanted to leave and he said yes.<BR>But then he talked about my plan b letter. He still made it seem as if I was telling him to leave. I made it clear that was not the case. I just was no longer desiring to be his excuse as to why 'he wasn't getting stuff done.' Nor did his children deserve to be the excuse. So then he launched into how we were 'distractions' for this big project he wants to do this summer. <P>Therapist redirected us to marriage. Told him that his leaving wasn't about 'a project.' That it had to do with marriage. We talked about control and voice and how he felt he didn't have a voice in marriage. We tried an exercise where he sat forward and I slouched (opposite of how we normally sit). I explained how I had been deliberately staying out of his 'decision-making' way. He told how he liked it.<P>Then, she brought up leaving again. I asked what was preventing him from leaving. He said me...my talk of finances and kids and family. He was especially upset about visitation of kids. His ideal is that kids are with me and he comes here to visit...he picks them up, he puts them to bed, he eats dinnner....waltzes in whenever he wants to. I said "why, if you leave, do you get to waltz into my life whenever you want to?" Why do I get left with the day-to-day details of kids and childrearing....Why does he want to just abdicate the role? Why can't he see that he will NOT be taking care of HIS responsibilities? <P>I DON'T WANT TO BE CHIEF, COOK AND BOTTLE WASHER. I DON'T WANT TO BE A SINGLE PARENT. I DON'T WANT TO BE BY MYSELF.<BR>BUT MOST OF ALL, I DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO PUT MY LOVE FOR HIM IN A BOX AND JUST BE HIS FRIEND. That's what he said, we should just be friends. <P>I gotta go. I'm crying and I have to stop before he comes home.<P>Cali

Oh Cali, I tried to tell you that sometimes counseling doesn't go that well, specially at the beginning, it just brings up everything up to the top again.<P>Please dont be upset. My h also complained that he wasn't moving sooner because he was really worried of what I would do about the kids and him. He had a reason to worry tobe honest, you see ow's children had been taking away from her because of abuse, I told him I would have no problem with visits, but I would fight as much as I could for whole weekends or stuff like that in view of the facts - probably wouldn't get anywhere with my fight, but I didn't tell him that, and I would try anyway.<P>He also brought that up in counseling one day. <BR>And look where you are now Please don't take this to the letter. Yes it is discouraging, but then it doesn't have to mean things are not working.<P>I'll try to come back later.<P>Hugs