Friends -<P>Well, some of you may know some of my story from my previous posts - and I'm grateful to get this far with your all's help!<P>Basically, our Dday was 10/00 and in the last 8 months of attempt at recovery, my WS and I have been thru counseling (individual and couples, secular and spiritual) and me doing plan A. My WS has more or less been a passive observer thru all this - mostly content to comment that "if I'm here, I'm committed to our marriage", but has done little (if any) true work at making our marriage work.<P>We've been married almost 17 years and have 3 children (11, 8, 6).<P>During these months, my wife has continued to lie to me about her continuing her relationship with OM (a contractor who did addition work on our house over a 13 month period). Each time she would be caught lying about still seeing him, she would swear to break off the relationship and ask me to give us another chance. The third time this happened, I gave up and we began divorce proceedings.<P>After a month, she asked me to give "us" another chance - and she claimed to now realize that she needed to make changes and was now "100% committed" to making our marriage work.<P>I took her at her word and continued plan A - despite the fact that I didn't trust her. During this past month, things weren't feeling right and today I found out she's been seeing OM still (found out from MIL that my WS told her about that, including a list of gifts she's received recently - many of which I've seen in my house, but never questioned!).<P>So, what do I do know? It would seem to me that plan A isn't cutting it for us. Plan B looks like the next step. But, if I can't get her to leave, what position will I be in with my letter? I don't want to leave my children. I don't want to go back to the atty and tell them to proceed once and for all. <B>But I don't want to be abused anymore!!!!! </B><P>I so want to give up now (and am grateful I'm on Zoloft these days). What direction can you suggest for me?<P>As luck would have it, I have an appointment with my personal counsellor in the morning...<P>Thanks!

Plan B sounds like a good idea, but I don't know what to do if your wife won't leave, and it sounds from what you've said, that she definately wouldn't. She seems to want to have her cake and eat it too, which is quite typical. <P>The lying is so hard to deal with and usually so out of character for the person we think we married.<P>I just wanted to let you know someone's reading and offer you support.

I'm hesitant to reply because I might be out in left field, but I would think that at some point you've got to ask her to leave, and move to a Plan B upon her leaving.<P>It just seems that it is these cases of "having cake and eating it too", not wanting to leave, that would benefit the most from Plan B, but yet you can't get into it because they won't leave.<P>See what others think, but I can't imagine allowing her to indefinitely continue the affair while living in your house. I put up with it for several months, but we were waiting for my wife's house purchase to close, so that was my major Plan A time.<P>

{{{{{spiritfilled}}}}}<P>Sounds like plan B might well be in order. If so, I would try to get her to leave the house. You will need to make appropriate childcare arrangements, etc., of course, but is there any reason why she could not move out?<P>How far does her mother live (your MIL)? Could you manage to pack her things, bring them to your MIL's house, change the locks, and send her a plan B letter without her knowing what you were up to? Is there another place she could go, such as a close friend's or sibling's house? What about financial issues? Does your W have the ability to support herself during plan B?<P>I don't think you should move out, if at all possible. It might put you in a more difficult position in terms of looking after the children's needs and, in the event you need to argue about it, who the children should live with if you don't get back together. (In my jurisdiction, the person who has interim care of the children often has physical custody after the D proceedings are finally decided.)<P>Another alternative is to confront her again and this time, in the face of more promises, implement all the extraordinary measures that will show her being accountable for where she is with and with whom, at all times. Get all of the info, no more snooping, no more information through the grapevine; get an agreement to all e-mail accounts and passwords, all telephone accounts and statements, a detailed schedule with telephone numbers she can be reached all the time, pager password, monitoring software on all the computers she uses, even phone taps, the whole shooting match. Of course, there is the "no contact" letter, to be agreed upon together; and no contact must mean none at all, not ever, not for any reason. There are more measures that the Harleys suggest, but I do not have a full list.<P>On that note, have you counselled with the Harleys? I have not but understand that they are very good at giving you a read on whether the fundamentals are in place sufficient for recovery to even start.<P>My d-days (2 of them due to a resumption of the A) were in 09-00, only a month before your original d-day. D-day #2 nearly did me in completely. You are a strong person to have dealt with 3 or more. You need to think about how much longer you can plan A and still have any love left for your W. Also, how are the children handling all of this? (We have two under five years old) Would they be better off with plan B now?<P>I have been doing the plan A "thing" for nine months and while H has ended the A for good (to the best of my knowledge and information), he is still not really participating in the recovery plan. (Why should he, really? His ENs are being met and he has not had to do any real "work".) It seems like many BSs are posting these days about non-participating WSs, many months after the end of the A. This is not meant to be discouraging, just realistic. Even when the WS ends the A for good, it is a long and bumpy road. Somehow, the WS doesn't seem to "get it" very quickly.<P>I will check back for your updates and send you positive cyber-vibes.<P>Z

Hmmmm... Just wanted to add my 2 cents. <P>You can't really kick her out unless the house is totally in your name, it's not is it? <P>What about if you very calmly and nicely talk to her about leaving the house for a while and moving out? Let her know that you cannot continue to live like this and since she is the one continuing to have the A, then it is her responsibility to leave. Make sure you think it through, especially the things she may argue against. If it's financial, find a place for her and offer to pay for it to support her for a while. If it's the kids, write up a plan ahead of time that you think she'd agree to (jut don't mention the no contact). You make all the plans, think it through and make it be an offer she can't refuse (because you've thought it through and there are no loopholes).<P>Once she is out, stick with what you told her, but implement plan B at the same time. It's a little bit of a kick, but somehow I think if you do it all at once you'll get no where and she won't leave...<P>Just a thought.

Thanks, everyone!<P>It's funny - this being the fourth time this has happened over the last 8 months and I feel more numb than angry. In fact, I spent the better part of tonite sticking with my plan for the evening before I found out - making her up a photo album of our early years of our marriage (as a birthday present, this Thursday). Eerie feeling at times...<P>I have not spoke to the Harley's yet and that was on my list for things to do tomorrow (setup an appointment). My MIL will be here for another week so I'm in no rush to confront my WS right away. For better or worse, my MIL lives in CA (we're in CT) so my WS moving in with her is not possible. She has several friends and maybe I'll contact them to see if they'll ve receptive to taking her in - most of them know about A already.<P>I have no legal way to force her to move out - the house is in both of ours name. I tried this once before several months ago when I found out she had seeen OM while I was away and accepted a marriage proposal from him (on Valentines Day, no less!). She refused then and made all sorts of promises of "making the marriage work at all costs" - obviously, my WS's words mean very little to me at this point.<P>Whatt I struggle with tonite is even if I want to give anything else a chance - period. ZYCB's thoughts are good, but even if she agrees to "total honesty", I'm not sure I have anything left to feel for her let alone trust.<P>Unfortunately, our oldest son (11) has been "acting up" more than usual lately. He has been sort of a barometer for our marriage - typically acting poorly when things are bad, and vice versa. Despite our children knowing that we have put our divorce "on hold", they see little love between us and I can't help but think after so many months it's starting to take its toll. This past week, my son had several big outbursts, including one where he threatened to kill himself (by choking himself with his karate belt)! Scarey stuff so now he's in counseling as well <P>I really feel I'm at a crossroads and don't know if I have anything more to give my WS to even make the gesture of plan B - filing for divorce would be easier for me at this point. Luckily I have some time to think this thru.<P>God, grant me the strength to heal, the patience to endure, and the wisdom to learn! Please pray for me!<p>[This message has been edited by spiritfilled (edited June 11, 2001).]

I would move out for awhile. Let your wife have some responsibility for a change. It's really quite disgusting what she is doing. Don't let her abuse you!!!!!!

OH I feel for you! Have been in a similar spot 2 months ago with H who was having an A. We have 3 kids and at first H moved out for 3 wks when he was waffling back and forth between me and OW, then moved back in wanting to reconcile. But it was false on his part- he secretly kept contacting OW who urged him to file for D on me which he did, but then he regretted it and cancelled. Then he spent the next 6 wks on the couch like a lump- wouldnt move out again because his lawyer had warned him it would affect custody if we ended up in divorce again and the house is in both our names so I felt frustrated. But my attorney said that if either of us filed he could make H move out within a few wks by filing some paperwork. When I told H this when he kept bringing up D for discussion it helped him to realize the magnitude of what he was doing.I told him that he beter start looking for his own apartment - although if I were him I'd be more concerned about his eternal home ! Also I told H that if he filed on me I would go for main custody and eventually move the kids to another state and start my whole life over with them.(My attorney said I could eventually move after the legal stuff). THAT really woke him up. We had moved to this state a year ago for his job promotion and its not near any relatives. I told him why should I continue to live here if we have to sell our new home to pay for divorce? He really hadnt figured on my wanting to start my life somewhere else.He began to go to counseling with me after thinking those things over. Dont get me wrong- I am TOTALLY against divorce but he seemed to need a push to get him going in the reconciling direction. Take care- lifeismessy

Whatever you do, DO NOT MOVE OUT!!! The only way you should even consider this is if you can take the kids with you.<P>Follow through with your plan to talk with the Harleys.<P>I think you need to turn up the heat and play hard ball, but get the Harley view. I think that she's a fence sitter, otherwise she would have already moved out. <P>I hope the Harleys give you the following advice: start confronting her with evidence as zycb suggests. This will force her one way or the other. Either way will be better than where you are now. Through all this, keep your cool and come across as rational and caring. In your case, the tough love approach may be more appropriate than a strict MB approach.<P>WAT

Unfortunately, I just found out that the MB counselors are unavailable until 6/26 due to a conference in Fla - good thing I'm not in a crisis! <P>I met with my counselor this morning who recommended either proceeding with filing for D or sitting tight until my WS and I meet with our couples counselor next week (thinking that she might be more willing to be open and honest in the safety of the session than between us at home and we can come up with a definite next move).<P>Unfortunately, unlike the previous three times, I have no hard evidence to show what I know - only what my MIL let me know. That puts me in a slightly disadvantageous position if she wants me to prove what I'm saying - having to implicate her mother and their trust. Ultimately, I don't really care about their relationship, but if there is any hope of recovery, that would be a burnt bridge that may never be repaired.<P>What would be the best "tough love" approach?<P>Thanks for your guidance and wisdom -