As I read the posts from so many of you, I feel almost trivial for asking this. So many of you are dealing with physical and mental abuse and still trying to make your marriage work. Where do you find the strength?<P>My problem is this: Some of you may recall from my post a few weeks ago that my husband had a sexual relationship with his best friend (a man) for over 10 years. While I knew that there was a perverted emotional affair going on, I really could not fathom the physical nature of the relationship. I found out by finding a diary he kept detailing all of the times they were together.<P>I thought I wanted to work things out. We have 2 teenage boys who adore their father. He's basically a good person who doesn't do anything deliberately hurtful. He is revered in the community because he is the pastor of a medium-sized church in a small town right in the middle of "Bible Belt" America. I thought I could put all this behind me and go on.<P>A couple of things happened in the last week to make me wonder about my decision. The first thing made me realize that I still don't trust him. The second thing made me realize that I still don't love him. I was at the store and decided to go ahead and get a Fathers'Day card. As I was looking through all the "To my husband" cards, it hit me. I don't feel that way about him and I haven't for years. I had been wishing that I could leave the marriage behind for years before I found out about his relationship. My faith would not allow me to leave him for a reason other than abuse or unfaithfulness so I just decided that I was imprisoned in my marriage for the rest of my life. I was beginning to feel that my marriage was a punishment or something. It was after much prayer that I found the diary which told me the truth of what has been going on.<P>It's not that I hate him. I just look at him and have no feeling at all. We have made love only 2 - 3 times a year for the last 10 years. We have made love on two occasions since I found out (7 weeks ago). Both occasions were after I told him I would probably leave. Other than that, not much has changed. He says he has ended his friendship with the other man and says he will not contact him. We live 200 miles apart, so he can do it if he wants to. It is very difficult for me to live this lie where everyone thinks that we have a fairy-tale marriage because he can preach a great sermon on marriage and he does his own laundery. I always act happy. I have not told a single person, other than a counselor, what has happened. I can never tell anyone that there was an affair if I choose to stay married (he would be fired in a second) and I can never in my life tell anyone there was another MAN because I want to protect my children from that truth.<P>Now I feel even more imprisoned than before. A part of me desparately wants out. He still tries to be nice and go on as before, so maybe the problem is just me? We might have to file for bankruptsy if I leave because he will lose his income and our house (a parsonage). Is that reason enough to stay in a marriage? I am so depressed and angry right now. Why would I try to keep a marriage I was so unhappy with anyway? I know God would allow divorce in this case, but I feel so guilty that I might hurt my sons with all this. <P>Well, I have to get ready for work so my rambling must end. As I said, I know my situation is not as critical as many of yours and you may be laughing at my "plight." Thanks for letting me get this off my chest. As I said, there is not one other person on earth I can tell.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by fighting_spirit (edited June 18, 2001).]

Fighting Spirit<P>First let me assure you that no one is here is laughing at your situation. <P>Second let me tell you that I am sorry that you are experiencing this in your life and for the pain that you feel. We are all here for the same reason....our spouse is cheating on us in some form or another. There are other people out here that are in a similar situation as you are. You are not the first and you will not be the last.<P>I have confidence that one of these kind compasionate people will respond to your post and offer you their story and their experiences as a resource for you to draw upon.<P>Only you can make the decision whether or not to stay in your marriage but be assured that you will only find support on this forum. <P>I dont reply very often but I do want to share with you that my mother found herself in a similar situation with my father after she had 3 kids. <P>So be assured you are not alone and you will do what you need to do when you need to do it. Keep in mind that we do the best that we can while we are doing it.

Hello fighting_spirit,<P>I'm sure nobody here is laughing at your situation. Almost everybody here knows the absolute heartbreak of betrayal. Many of us probably are thinking that our situations aren't nearly as hard to deal with as yours is. I know that I am.<P>I was glad to read that you are seeing a counselor, and I hope it is on a regular basis. I admire your desire to protect your husband's reputation and job, and most of all to protect your children. Many of us have the same goals.<P>How old are your children? What kind of family and friend support system do you have? Have you considered the need for a complete physical along with testing for AIDS and other STDs?<P>I personally know the difficulty of dealing with an affair, though it was a very brief one. My husband regrets it tremendously and seems to be a changed man. Still, this is the hardest thing that I have ever faced, and I cannot fathom the level of strength and faith needed to survive your situation.<P>Obviously, your husband is bisexual. Is that something you can accept and live with for the rest of your life? Do you really want this life?<P>When I first discovered my husband's affair, the feeling of helplessness was so overwhelming. We saw a very good counselor who pointed out to me that in fact I was now the empowered spouse. The ball was in my court now, and I was in control of the future of our relationship. She encouraged me to take an honest assessment of our life together and use that to make a choice about my future.<P>As I looked back over the 23 years we had been married, I remembered the difficulties that we had faced. But I also looked at the times that we had succeeded in overcoming them. Our marriage, while not perfect, had been overall very good. My husband, while not perfect, had been a constantly loving, supportive, kind, and considerate spouse. His affair had been a horribly evil event in our lives, but it was a brief and isolated incident out of an otherwise very good relationship. He was extremely remorseful and worked very hard to convince me to give our marriage a chance to heal. When I agreed, he made a total committment to lead our recovery with counseling, therapy, and prayer. He faced it openly and painfully, with (finally) no more attempts to ignore it and pretend it wasn't really true or sweep it under the rug.<P>Even with all of this, we still struggle to overcome the damage the affair caused. I too had the same desire to protect my children and other family members, especially our elderly parents. I had some fears about separating and starting over as a middle-aged divorced woman without a financially secure future. But none of those things alone would have kept us together. The only thing that did that was the love we had for each other. Without that strong love, our marriage would have ended immediately, and to be honest there are still times when it seems even love is not enough to overcome this devastation.<P>My point in saying all of this is that it is important to consider all the issues when you are deciding on something so important, but make sure that you are also considering yourself and your own future and happiness. Do you really see a good possibility that you will be happy in your marriage for the rest of your life, that you can accept this longterm act of betrayal and lifestyle?<P>Your husband broke the covenants he made with you (and God, but HE will deal with that). Continuing with your marriage will require forgiveness and the making of new covenants. Can you truly forgive and have confidence in your husband and the new promises he will make, or will your life be filled with worry, mistrust, and fear?<P>Those are questions that only you can answer. It is good to consider what is best for others, but don't sacrifice yourself and your future to do so.<P>Please keep posting here. We do not have all the answers, but we do all care and support you, whether you leave or stay in your marriage.<P>Best wishes,<P>Peppermint

Thank you both for your replies.<BR>Peppermint - I did see the doctor within a week of finding out and thankfully, everything is fine. I know the man my husband was involved with and his reputation before he married wasn't all that great so I was a little worried. <P>You asked about my support system. At the moment it is pretty non-existent. I would like to find a new counselor - preferably a woman. I didn't really care for the other one. I have no friends to speak of - only people from church who I participate in activities with and people at work. I certainly have no one with whom I could talk about this situation. I don't have a close knit family.<P>My boys are 14 and 17. We have a daughter who is 22 so she won't be as directly affected by my decision as her brothers. We have been married 24 years.<P>In all the books I've read and the postings from people here, I've not really found anything that addresses long-term affairs or bisexual affairs. It's not like I can go to the ladies class at church and ask if anyone else's husband has been with another man.<P>I am so scared to put my trust in him only to be betrayed by him again. I've always said that I would be smart and never be the last to know if he did something. When I married him, I thought he was the most honest, godly, faithful person I would ever meet. Even when I became terribly unhappy in the marriage, I believed it must be my fault and not his. Now I am realizing that he is not what I thought.<P>In some ways, I know that the length of an affair does not really change things. In other ways, it does matter. For instance, I keep thinking that almost half of our married life has been a lie. Or I think, the youngest was hardly more than a baby when his father stopped being faithful. The fact that my husband is a pastor doesn't change things either except that I am constantly told how lucky I am to have a man like him.<P>If anyone else reads this who has come through a long-term affair and survived, I'd like to hear from you.<P>

fighting, has your H identified himself as gay? Or even bisexual? An otherwise straight man does not have a long-term sexual affair with another man.<P>Your H is not a bad person, he is a sexually conflicted person whose conflict is exacerbated by the fact that he is a pastor. Perhaps his choice of vocation was his way of trying to stuff himself in the closet. I don't know him, so I can't say.<P>Your H's affair is different from the standard garden-variety affair, because the playing field is entirely different. Any kind of affair is devastating, but a homosexual affair is doubly frightening because of what it may say about the entire marriage and the feeling that it gives the spouse of having lived a lie. That this affair was with your H's best friend means that it was a safe place in which he could let this side of himself out.<P>I've read your message a couple of times now, and it sounds to me as if your H wants to remain closeted. However, if your H is gay or bisexual, this is NOT going to go away, and you have NO guarantees that it won't happen again. You can plan A your little heart out, and it may be that no matter how perfect you are, your H may feel the need to seek out male companionship and male sexuality again.<P>You must keep in mind that THIS IS NOT BECAUSE OF ANYTHING YOU DID. If your H is gay or bisexual, he has probably always been this way. You did not make him this way, and you cannot stop it.<P>What you have to decide is whether you can live with this. If you do, you will need to find support from people in a similar situation. I would suggest that you contact PFLAG (Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays) to find a local chapter and support group in your area. You can find one here: <A HREF="http://www.pflag.org/chapters/chapter.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.pflag.org/chapters/chapter.html</A> <P>PFLAG also publishes a pamphlet, "Opening the Straight Spouse's Closet", which "provides insight into issues faced by straight spouses of lesbians, gays or bisexuals, including coping stages, identity crises, concerns about children, and support avenues."<P>Fighting, you underestimate how difficult your situation is. In many ways, what you are dealing with is MORE difficult than what other here are dealing with, because at least they can compete on the same field. You can't. If your H cheats with another woman, you can at least win him back because you can fill the needs the other woman does. If your H cheats with a man, he is addressing a side of himself that you can't.<P>I believe that your H wants to remain closeted and "live straight." However, my own opinion is that there is only so long that gays and bisexuals can do that; can live in that kind of conflict. A friend of mine who came out after over five years of marriage and a few children tried to do this, and couldn't. Perhaps your H will be different; it sounds as if he wants to be.<P>If you can forgive, if you can live with this reality, you and your H are going to have to forge some kind of new structure to your marriage that works for you. Forget everyone else's rules; your situation is different.<P>It's a tough road you have to travel either way. I wish you good luck. But please get some support for your particular sitaution.<P>

Hello fighting_spirit,<P> I read your post and my heart broke for you. I don't have any "words of wisdom" for you, since my H situation is of the "garden variety." <BR> I just wanted you to know that I am praying for you and know you will find God's answers for yourself and your life. Trust Him, lean on Him. He is always good to us, wants the very BEST for us!<P>Peppermint, your situation is very similar to mine. I would be interested in conversing with you on private email. My addy is mk91upo@strato.net. Please contact me, as I would like to ask some questions about your personal interventions, successes, as you seem to have been where I am and have gotten to where I want to be. Thank you.<P>fighting_ HANG IN THERE!! Stay connected, and we will give you all the prayers and support we can. <BR>Lupo

Bringing this to top, to make it easier for fighting_spirit to see.

Dear fighting_spirit,<P>When I read the first line of your post and you said you felt trivial, I thought, "well, if it's important to you, then it's not trivial." But as I read on, I almost began to cry. I don't know if my perspective can help you here. I'm a pastor. My wife and I lived most of my ministry in the same kind of parsonage living conditions you are living in, and I know very well the kinds of community and social pressures you are going through. Your kids and mine are about the same ages too. In my case, however, it was my W who had the affair.<P>And I think the "fish-bowl" syndrome of being in the pastor's wife had a lot to do with her unhappiness. I know how incredibly hard it is when people come up and say, "How's your family" - thankfully right now, I'm working in another town about an hour away from where I live, so they don't know that my W has moved out - and what do you say, "Oh, it's dropped into the 9th level of Hell, thank you for asking "<P>I think the wives of clergy do a lot of things because they are "suppose" to. About 99.99% of these things are purely cultural and social and have little to do with Biblical faith, I mean, where in the bible to you ever read about Peter's wife having to head up the ladies aid? Or a commandment that says pastor's wives have to always be "happy?" It's not there, but the people expect it when they expect it of no one else. I think things like that take a tremendous emotional toll on pastor's wives. And to be honest, dear lady, you sound to me like that is the case with you. But you sound like you've bravely shoved all that down inside and locked it away for a long time. If there was ever a time for it to come out, it's now, and it's with your counselor.<P>Now on to your husband. I'm going to get shot for the political incorrectness of what I'm going to write here, but it comes from 14 year of counseling experience and partly from the beliefs of my church. I don't believe a homosexual affair is any "worse" from God's perspective than a heterosexual one. I think they are both very wrong and sinful (the sixth commandment and all). But your husband seems to be at least bisexual - and by that I mean sexually attracted to both men and women; or possibly primarily attracted to men (considering what your sex life has been).<P>Sorry everyone, but there is empirical evidence that sexual orientation can be modified, but it is difficult in the extreme. That, IMHO makes your situation very much more difficult than the norm. So, to reiterate something another poster said, can you live with that? So, you actually have two problems here, one, your husband's sexual orientation and the other the affair. This is far from trivial. I don't know how you have found the strength.<P>As for half of your marriage being a lie, my wife has informed me that she hasn't loved me for at least 10 years, and although she denies it, I think she's had several emotional affairs during that time, maybe even other physical ones. When I first found out about her affair and her "feelings" (you can't be sure this is accurate info, btw) I felt the same way, our marriage, everything was a lie. But I finally figured out that wasn't true. My kids are not lies. They are real, and honest, living human beings who have turned out rather well no thanks to me. To call everything a lie would be to call them a lie as well. I can't do that. The *only* thing that was lie wasn't a thing, it was a person. Your husband was a liar and he lied about a specific thing, that he was faithful to you. Evidently he's been a decent father and a kind man and those are good things and not lies. It's true, he is a hypocrite, but Jesus even said of the Pharisees, "do what they tell you, listen to them, but don't be like them." So, what I'm trying to say is don't throw *your* life away, and the blessings you have because of your husbands lies. They are his and his alone.<P>If you found any of this helpful, I really feel for you, and I think I might have some other things specific to the "ministry" situation you find yourself in that probably don't belong on this board. I don't know if this is appropriate or not, but if you'd like to write me privately, feel free, naib@mac.com<P><BR>God Bless,<P>Ishmael

No - your situation is certainly NOT trivial - and I am so glad that you posted here. You have got some great advice from the others, and I agree with them that you have to think of YOUR happiness now. Beleive me - your children will be far worse off if they are living with a married, but depressed, frustrated, mother, than they will if they are living with a separated/divorced but happy, fulfilled mother. To give the best for your children, you have to look after yourself first - I firmly believe that.<P>Dazed and Confused always has great advice - I know she has helped me a lot in the past - and she is right, there are people you can talk to about this, who will understand.<P>hugs, and best wishes, Paint.

Thanks to all of you for responding! It feels good to talk to other people about this. <P>Dazed - thanks for the info you sent. You are right in that my husband wants to live "straight." I don't think he would ever give in to a totally gay lifestyle. It's true that I probably don't feel the competition or personal failure that I might feel if my husband had been with a woman. I don't have to ask myself "What has she got that I don't have?" At least with a man, I know the answer to that one .<P>Ishmael - thanks for your post. You do seem to know what it's like in the fish bowl. Except for politics, preaching is the only occupation I know of where the "employer" cares as much about the spouse as the "employee." My husband has never once had to go along on my job interviews! And you were right that the stress of taking care of my job and his job is wearing me down. All three of our children have ADHD so they are very "high maintenance." This just adds to the stress.<P>I also agree that a homosexual affair is no better or worse than any other sexual relationship outside of marriage. That doesn't really factor into my decision all that much. my husband has agreed to go to counselling. Years ago, before I knew about the physical relationship my husband had with this man, I warned him that their relationship would be the ruin of our family. At that time, we lived in the same town and they were together way too much. He was neglecting our own children to be with him. I was hurt that I always seemed to be last on his "important things to do" list. The last several years he has really tried to be a good father. He takes care of a lot of the parent/teacher stuff because my job does not allow me the freedom of phone calls or visits during the day.<P>I am worried that I won't get over the pain that I'm feeling. It seems that lately I'm happiest when I'm thinking of leaving. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I read 270 pages of details of their sexual relationship. It's hard to forget that. (As an amusing(?) side note - The other man does not think that their relationship constitutes "adultery" because he says there was no anal penetration - just oral (my husband says this was not always true). Anyway, he says what they did was just "foreplay" and no court would call it adultery. He thinks his wife would not be all that mad if she found out. He he delusional or what!?!) I know this because I talked with him for 8 hours about all this.<P>Part of why I am feeling so depressed is that I am feeling so stupid. For years, I knew that something was wrong. I knew that their relationship was strange. I heard alarm bells ringing in my head all the time. I even confronted him several times over the years and asked if he was sleeping with someone else (although I was thinking maybe a woman). He always smooth-talked his way out of the situationn and then I would feel guilty for suspecting him. I've been called a lot of things in my life - but I've never been called stupid. I'm afraid that if I just take all his promises at face value now, I'm just being stupid again.<P>Again, thanks everyone for listening. Ishmael, I'm sorry about your wife. I may email you later to share some of my perspective on the "pastor's wife" that probably nobody else here would be interested in.<P><BR>

Ishmael: I am familiar with the "empirical evidence" you cite; it's a recent study in which a researcher with a particular axe to grind studied people recruited from Exodus and similar ex-gay organizations. Hardly a representative sampling.<P>I don't doubt that there are gay and bisexual people who can "live straight", but it always involves denying a part of themselves in order to do so. For some, the desire to fit into straight society is sufficient incentive. For others, it isn't. The impulse/attraction is still there, it's just suppressed all the time.<P>Not being gay or bi myself, all I have to go on is the person I do know who is. Believe me, if she could have, she would have stayed married and saved herself a whole mess o'trouble. She couldn't. I hope fighting_spirit's H can.

Now I'm about to jump into the politically incorrect pool also. I don't think it matters if homosexuality comes from "nature" or "nurture." If you believe, as I do, that the practice of homosexuality is a sin; it goes against God's plan for mankind and will one day be punished then the reason behind the sin is not important. The sin is the PRACTICE of homosexuality and everyone has the ability to control the behavior. Abstinance is always an option. I do believe that some people are predisposed to homosexual tendencies, but that doesn't make the actions ok. Some people are predisposed to anger control problems but it's not ok for them to hit everyone they disagree with.<P>If however, you do not have the belief system that I have then the source of homosexuality is still not relevant. If you believe either that there is no God or that he's changed his mind since he said in the Bible that homosexuality is a sin, or that he really never meant it's a sin, or you believe in a different higher power then you are going to believe that homosexual behavior is ok, whatever the reason. You may feel sorry for the person who suffers because he/she goes against the norm. You probably feel that everyone has the right to do whatever makes them feel fulfilled in this life. You may think that if a person is "born that way" then it must be ok.<P>Trust me, I'm not advocating "gay bashing." I believe with all my heart that God loves all people and wants them to come to him. The sin of homosexuality is no greater than any other sin in the Bible (Isn't it in a list with gluttony? Should we beat up all the fat people, too? I hope not - I don't have the strength to defend myself against a beating!)<P>Anyway, back to my husband. He told me just recently that he did have some homosexual encounters in Jr. High and High School. In the first ones, he was the victim; but later he willingly participated in a relationship for a while. I believe that these things set the stage for what happened after we were married - even though it was many years down the line before anything happened. I have heard so many stories about things like this with young boys that I scares me to death when I think about my own sons.<P>My husband asked me last night how I am feeling about "us." I had told him a few days ago that I was not sure that I had made the right decision when I said I would stay and that I am depressed and considering all my options. All I said last night is "I'm not ready to talk about it right now." I could tell he was upset, but I really do think that I need to get my own thoughts solidified before discussing them with him again. He is a smooth talker and I have always let him dominate my thinking and now I think it would be better just to not talk about it for a while. He sent me a card and a box of candy earlier this week. Although I thought it was a nice gesture, it doesn't change the fact that when I look at him I still feel . . . nothing.