Friends -<P>As some of you might know, I gave my WS a Plan B letter on Tuesday, the content of which was posted here earlier this week.<P>What I didn't expect was her response - that I was trying to "trick" her since she "wasn't involved in the affair anymore". Of course, I am completely confident about the facts (including "hard" evidence to support them), but I guess it really doesn't matter, does it?<P>Anyway, since I hadn't seen this as something the Harley's or this board have mentioned about this response being a possible outcome, I'm at a loss for what to do next. Obviously, my WS is in complete denial - she resists counseling and won't talk to me about anything.<P>Looks like it's time to move over to the D/D board...<P>Any thoughts?<p>[This message has been edited by spiritfilled (edited June 21, 2001).]

SF - what to do next for you is easy - nothing. The beauty of Plan B is that you don't have to respond anymore. In fact, if you DO respond, you're playing right into her game.<P>Now, is it possible that the "non-affair" is over? Could be. All she has to do is come to you and agree to work on the marriage. Since she's not doing that, it's either not over, or she's not ready to work. It doesn't matter what the reason is - Plan B doesn't care.<P>In conclusion, I don't think this is an unexpected response for a WS in denial. Please listen to other opinions and consider seeking the Harley's advice.<P>WAT

Thanks, WAT -<P>This is what I was unsure about with Plan B - if the WS refused to leave and refused to acknowledge with honesty the affair, what do I do in order to continue with the "no-contact" purpose of Plan B?<P>Since we have children and are living in the same house, I have no choice but to talk about issues regarding them. Also, since the children do not know what is going on, there needs to be some air of connection between us in order to prevent confusion on their part (they are all young, under 11).<P>So, how do I not respond anymore? I have tried to setup time with the Harley's, but they are out of town/unavailable until next week.<P>BTW, it is definite that the affair is still ongoing and from what I learned this past weekend, has evolved from a claimed EA to full PA (over what time, I do not know - Dday was 10/00).<BR>Thanks!<p>[This message has been edited by spiritfilled (edited June 21, 2001).]

Have you put your evidence of the continued and growing affair in front of you wife so she cannot wiggle out of this?<P>I is true that you cannot kick her out of the house. The denial is probably not an unusual reaction to the Plan B letter. But as you have stated, you cannot plan B if she is in the same house.<P>You might want to have an appointment with the MB counselors. I'm sure they can help you.<P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

SF - I misunderstood that you were not separated. Sorry.<P>I agree with Z. You may have no choice but to show your hand. Please consider a session with Steve H.<P>Whatever happens, DON'T YOU MOVE OUT!! Your kids need you.<P>WAT

I would consider this one of the expected responses to a Plan B implementation. In fact, I believe this is one of the most likely outcomes when I move to Plan B.<P>I haven't discussed this with Steve, but if this happens, I plan on revealing as much evidence as necessary to stomp her denials. But these denial monsters are like the bad guys in movies that just keep coming back, so even mounds of evidence may not stop the denying.<P>Like you've already been told, whether you show your cards or not, Plan B can have any number of reactions, and the reasons you are doing it for remain intact, so I'd expect this kind of turbulence and just stick to the plan. In your case, it is harder, since she lives with you, but at least you can reveal what you know.<P>Good luck.

Thanks, everyone!<P>This is tough for me, since I can't decide if it is worth putting up with this anymore. Confronting her seems the best, but having to defend my allegations with evidence to someone who knows the truth really turns my stomach.<P>Plus, it would seem to go contrary to the point of the Plan B letter being a "love" letter of sorts, avoiding anything that would give the WS a bad experience about you.<P>Finally, I'm really questioning the wisdom of staying in this marriage these days - too much pain, not enough hope.<P>More prayers for now...

<B>Have you put your evidence of the continued and growing affair in front of you wife so she cannot wiggle out of this?</B><BR>She’ll just deny, deny, deny, EVEN if you had pictures.<P><B>Plus, it would seem to go contrary to the point of the Plan B letter being a "love" letter of sorts, avoiding anything that would give the WS a bad experience about you.</B><BR>After Plan B has begun, you don’t need to worry about this. Don’t do something to deliberately hurt her, but if you choose to do something, then so be it.<P><B>I'm really questioning the wisdom of staying in this marriage these days</B><BR>Stick with Plan B for awhile (at least 6 months) & don’t think divorce just because your wife doesn’t like Plan B.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

spiritfilled:<P>For what it is worth, I think the response you received is confirmation that you are doing the right thing by going to Plan B. I too have lived with a WS who refuses to work on the marriage, and I Plan A'd for 10 months to zero effect. The reason, it seemed obvious after I read SAA for the 10th time was that my W's affair was still going on, either in an EA or PA state, I really don't think it matters. And anything I did, no matter how loving or constructive was "manipulation." Your S calls it trickery.<P>Just a thought, you might try asking your S to move out. Yes your kids need both of you, but they don't need to see and experience the huge tension that must exist in your home. I asked my W to work with me or move out and she moved out without a whimper. I was surprised at that, but I think she really wanted to so she could rekindle her affair. And in a way, I hope she does. The sooner she does the sooner she will find out the OP isn't going to be able to make her as happy as she thinks he can (at least that's my hope).<P>But the one thing you really shouldn't put yourself through is thinking that somehow your S is telling you the truth. She's denying objective reality, reality you both know to be true. Is that rational? Does that make sense? Can you trust a person who does such a thing to tell you how they really feel? No, no way.<P>I'll even go a little further. I think you got to her on some level with your Plan B letter. You hit a conscience that's still somewhat alive (maybe only twitching, but there nonetheless) and she's mad at you for it. That's good in a way. Please, just hang in there with Plan B. Your wife sounds a lot like my own, and heavens I know how frustrating this is. I'd rather undergo physical torture than this, but don't give up yet. You've got those kids to think about. Focus on them and let your W live with her choices for a while. Going to the divorce mode now will only make it easy for her, you'll make her choices for her and then she can blame you all the more.<P>Be ready when and if she comes back to you, but in the meantime, you might want to try my little "mantra" based on the Matrix "there is no spoon" I say, "there is no (insert wife's name here).<P>God bless and keep you,<P>Ishy

spiritfilled:<P>For what it is worth, I think the response you received is confirmation that you are doing the right thing by going to Plan B. I too have lived with a WS who refuses to work on the marriage, and I Plan A'd for 10 months to zero effect. The reason, it seemed obvious after I read SAA for the 10th time was that my W's affair was still going on, either in an EA or PA state, I really don't think it matters. And anything I did, no matter how loving or constructive was "manipulation." Your S calls it trickery.<P>Just a thought, you might try asking your S to move out. Yes your kids need both of you, but they don't need to see and experience the huge tension that must exist in your home. I asked my W to work with me or move out and she moved out without a whimper. I was surprised at that, but I think she really wanted to so she could rekindle her affair. And in a way, I hope she does. The sooner she does the sooner she will find out the OP isn't going to be able to make her as happy as she thinks he can (at least that's my hope).<P>But the one thing you really shouldn't put yourself through is thinking that somehow your S is telling you the truth. She's denying objective reality, reality you both know to be true. Is that rational? Does that make sense? Can you trust a person who does such a thing to tell you how they really feel? No, no way.<P>I'll even go a little further. I think you got to her on some level with your Plan B letter. You hit a conscience that's still somewhat alive (maybe only twitching, but there nonetheless) and she's mad at you for it. That's good in a way. Please, just hang in there with Plan B. Your wife sounds a lot like my own, and heavens I know how frustrating this is. I'd rather undergo physical torture than this, but don't give up yet. You've got those kids to think about. Focus on them and let your W live with her choices for a while. Going to the divorce mode now will only make it easy for her, you'll make her choices for her and then she can blame you all the more.<P>Be ready when and if she comes back to you, but in the meantime, you might want to try my little "mantra" based on the Matrix "there is no spoon" I say, "there is no (insert wife's name here).<P>God bless and keep you,<P>Ishy

Good food for thought -<P>Ishy - what's tough for me doing what you suggest is living a lie with my WS. I would do better with her telling me she was still having the A and wasn't interested in working on recovery. I'd figure that at long as she remained at home (and maybe even not), I would pray for God's strength to endure and not having any expectaions (and avoiding the attendant hurt) might make this doable.<P>However, the blantant lies and false attempts at recovery have been too painful and have been going on for 8 mos now. I know I'm probably simply trying to justify to you all why I seem like I'm giving up now, but at what point is enough truly enough.<P>The next several days are going to be trying for me - I have divorce papers set to be served, my "good-bye" letter to my WS written, and a counseling session to see if there is anything left to try.<P>Hanging on by my fingernails, but really slipping fast...

<B>The next several days are going to be trying for me - I have divorce papers set to be served, my "good-bye" letter to my WS written, and a counseling session to see if there is anything left to try</B><BR>I guess divorce is MUCH easier than waiting a bit.<P><B>Looks like it's time to move over to the D/D board...</B><BR>Plan B isn't giving her the Plan B letter & then filing for divorce immediately.<P><B>she resists counseling and won't talk to me about anything.<BR></B><BR>Which is the reason for going to Plan B for more than 10 minutes.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Thanks for your comments, Chris - they really helped me get a handle on what to do. Especially the sarcasm...<P>Ouch!!!

Sorry for my outburst, this is sooo frustrating to me!!!!!<P>What I don't understand is how I can Plan B if my wife refuses to leave the house and we have to be "in contact" so that our kids can lead a relatively normal life during this? Sure, I could live with her and ignore her, but what would be the impact of such a scenario on my children?<P>I went to Plan B rather than filing for divorce because I wanted to give us a further chance. If I can't even Plan B by the Harley's method, what other options do I have?<P>It's not a matter of "immediately" filing for divorce or being in Plan B for only "10 min". I can't seem to grasp how I can continue with Plan B when my WS continues to deny and we live together with children.<P>HELP!!!

Hi SF,<P>Plan B is a step to protect you and your family. Your W will eventually need to face the results of her actions. When and how she does that is not something within your control now. That could be what is frustrating you. <P>Execution of a good plan B will reduce that frustration, leaving it in your W's lap. You will feel relief of the stress and pressure you are carrying right now. One of the hard things is to execute a plan B with her living at home. <P>As hard as it is to let go, you may have to do that. Maybe a short time apart, like a vacation for the children at Grandma's. Then you and your W can have some time to really discuss things out and if you both can't come to a agreement of sorts, then a trial separation may be worth looking into. That is a hard decision to make. <P>My H left us for 4 months. He may have stayed out longer but his money ran out. Oh by the way, sometimes their calculators in their brains loses power and they can not manage their finances on their own. Anyway, whatever the reason, my H was forced to face reality. Ow was not going to give him a free ride (though she promised it and then required $1000.00 per mo - room/board/sex). H had the choice of on the street or come home. Coming home now had terms and conditions. My plan B for me worked. It was not a 100% fool proof plan, but I stuck to it as best as I could. It hit me right during the tax season so we had more communication than I wanted. <P>See whether she is physically with you, she is not emotionally or mentally with you and your family. You need to let her know this and what the needs of you and your family are. Then check out her needs. Honestly compare the 2. Let her know you want to understand and help if you can but if the choice came between her needs to be with anyone other than her family, then you must choose the family over her. <P>That is my opinion. That is what I did. <P>Hope some of this info helps. <P>L.<BR>

S’okay if you’re sarcastic with us, but NOT your wife.<P>Plan A is all about how you can better yourself and not tick off your spouse.<P>Plan B is NOT about your spouse at all. It is only about you/children.<P><B>I can't seem to grasp how I can continue with Plan B when my WS continues to deny and we live together with children.</B><BR>Pretty difficult when you are still living together. However, you can keep the communication to a minimum. You do not care where she is/who she is with or if she denies EVERYTHING!<P>Have you considered talking with Steve Harley? I highly suggest it (1-888-639-1639)<P>You may <B>think</B> about moving out also. HOWEVER, DO NOT DO IT UNTIL YOU CONSULT AN ATTORNEY! You want to make sure you do not get “stuck” out of the house.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Thanks!<P>I've been trying to setup an appointment with Harley for a couple of weeks now - they've been away at a conference, but will be back this week. I have an email out to them in order to setup an appointment to talk about this.<P>I began reading Dobson's <B>Love is Tough</B> book this weekend - many ways similiar to the plan B approach, so it seems consistent with what is discussed here. He talks about precipitating a "crisis" to create the necessary envirnoment of "opening the cage door" for the WS - such as leaving with the kids. Would serving divorce papers not be in a similiar vein?<P>As you suggest, leaving my home is not an option - I've talked with attorneys about this before and I need to stay. Plus, I need to be with my kids during this time - they give me peace and comfort and the only real love I've felt in over a year.<P>I'll be meeting with my counsellor on Tuesday and hopefully with the Harleys early this week - but keep your voices coming!

Just wanted to let you know that my H had the same exact reaction to my Plan B letter. Said I was just manipulating him and that I wasn't letting him see the kids (because suddenly he had "visitation" instead of seeing them whenever he wanted). Which, BTW is NEVER, but...<P>Luckily for me, my H had already moved out, that's what prompted my plan B letter.<P>So she won't go for moving out, huh? What about if you don't IGNORE her, but make sure you are just not around to meet her needs. Take the kids out more often WITHOUT her. Tell her you will be home from blah to blah time and you hope she can find something else to entertain her. <P>Unfortunately for you, it may come down to talking about seperation and the "terms and conditions". But, I'm all for doing this before going to divorce.<P>Here's the thing you're going to wrestle with. If you file, you give in, she has an out, you just gave her what she THINKS she wants. Easy out and she'll probably take it - NOW. If you're like most of us, your W is acting completely out of character, yes it hurts, yes it sucks, but y'no what, chances are she's going to realize what an a** she's being.<P>And at THAT point - you are in control with a good plan B. YOU decide yes/no that she gets to come back. It may have been too long and she's up sh**'s creak, OR, just maybe she comes to her senses in time and you can reconcile. Either way, it's WIN/WIN for YOU. <P>Don't let her win by filing. <P>Just my 2 cents.

spirit:<P>A couple of things. About a week after initiating plan B, I went to see an attorney. Knowing absolutely nothing about the legal aspects of divorce, I thought I should know what my WS could possibly do. You hear all kinds of horror stories.<P>The attorney is a nice fellow and not pushy in the least (in fact, he didn't even charge me for an hour and a half visit!) I hate the idea of divorce, it makes my stomach turn, but as I sat there listening to the procedure I began thinking, "Wow, it would be a cinch. Nothing to it at all, and then, *it would be over!*<P>I found that idea so seductive, it was scary. I think it's the idea that the divorce will bring the suffering to an end that is so compelling. But in fact, I don't think it will do that at all. The suffering will run it's course with or without the divorce. All a divorce does is change the legal status of your relationship, and what you are struggling with isn't your legal status, it's your emotional status. That will not be altered by a divorce decree.<P>All that said, you are in a very hard situation. Plan B is a lot easier (if you can ever say that) when you don't have to actually see your spouse. I really don't know how to help you there. My WS left when I asked her to. Have you tried that? Just asking?<P>Ish

spirit:<P>A couple of things. About a week after initiating plan B, I went to see an attorney. Knowing absolutely nothing about the legal aspects of divorce, I thought I should know what my WS could possibly do. You hear all kinds of horror stories.<P>The attorney is a nice fellow and not pushy in the least (in fact, he didn't even charge me for an hour and a half visit!) I hate the idea of divorce, it makes my stomach turn, but as I sat there listening to the procedure I began thinking, "Wow, it would be a cinch. Nothing to it at all, and then, *it would be over!*<P>I found that idea so seductive, it was scary. I think it's the idea that the divorce will bring the suffering to an end that is so compelling. But in fact, I don't think it will do that at all. The suffering will run it's course with or without the divorce. All a divorce does is change the legal status of your relationship, and what you are struggling with isn't your legal status, it's your emotional status. That will not be altered by a divorce decree.<P>All that said, you are in a very hard situation. Plan B is a lot easier (if you can ever say that) when you don't have to actually see your spouse. I really don't know how to help you there. My WS left when I asked her to. Have you tried that? Just asking?<P>Ish