How come I keep getting the feeling from so many that the reason someone has EA's is the FAULT of the betrayed????<P>Is that really true???<P>I have asked over and over, and my STBX keeps saying FLAT OUT- that it was NOTHING that I did wrong, or that was lacking from me or that I could have done differently!!!! I also look back over these ten years of our marriage and I don't feel as though I did either (and I usually am quick to take the blame when things go wrong!!)....I asked him even if it might have been a seemingly small and insignificant thing and he keeps saying a resounding NO!! Infact, he is getting flat out angry at me that I think it might be my fault??? I hadn't thought it was my fault until so many people seemed to be point the fingers at me- like I had something majorly lacking- or SOMETHING???<P>Is something wrong and he just isn't saying? Is it the case IN EVERY SITUATION that it is the betrayed's fault and responsibility?? What gives??<P>If anything, I HAVE HAD reasons these ten years to cheat- not him-<P>Am I really to blame and just ignorant of the fact according to him and myself???<P>Any thoughts?<P>If it is really my fault and I'm just stupid about it- I'd like to figure it out so that I don't repeat the same mistake with the next relationship I have!!!!

too be blunt............bull$hit<BR>everyone is responsible for their own actions.....<BR>you didnt hold a gun to your H's said and force him to betray you ...he did that on his own.......

Hi TooLateForMe:<P>I don't know your story and it's a little hard to be of much help without more information but there is one thing I picked up on that might be significant:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If anything, I HAVE HAD reasons these ten years to cheat- not him-<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That one quote says a lot to me...it says that you were unhappy...at some level...and if you think that is not picked up by WH you're wrong. Since one important need for most H is to please and make their wives happy then you can see in a way you have failed him....you have failed to allow him to make you happy. Maybe you didn't share enough with him...maybe he needed a closer connection with you...I don't know...it's hard to say without knowing more.<P>Perhaps on some unconscious level your WH knew he wasn't making you happy and this made him feel bad...or maybe like me he thinks you are such a good person that he is bad for not being able to make you happy....either way he needed that affirmation of having done well and maybe he got it from OW (I suppose there is a OW)...if not then this just made him uncomfortable in the marriage...needs not being met. But really nothing concrete you were doing....so he can't claim you were at fault...just something missing.<P>I gather from your post you are divorced...and wanting information to make a better relationship next time...well, next time might be different...but this time you need to express your dissatisfaction to your partner and see if he is willing to work on it. Maybe that will make it better the next time.<P>Faye<P><BR>

TLFM:<P>The typical feeling around here (if anything can be considered typical) and in other readings I have done regarding this is that both parties in a marriage are responsible for the state of their relationship at the time of an A (EA or PA).<P>The general feeling, however, which I ascribe to as true, is that the BS is not responsible for the WS's A. That is their choice alone and it truly is a CHOICE. No one can drive them to it, no one can make them do it. It is something they choose to do. <P>Many of the BS's here have recognized their part in bringing their marriage to the point where the choice was made. But they do not take the blame for the A. It is a simple distinction but a very important one.<P>So when your H says the A is not your fault he is, under this explanation, technically correct. <P>Typically, most WSs will eventually explain to someone (hopefully the BS) that some or all eomotional needs were not being met, or, at the very least, an important EN was not being met.<P>I hope that makes some sense. As much as any of this makes sense--you know?<P>Take care.<P>E <P>

Well said, and in agreement Elad.<P>I'm an (xWS) by the way Too Late For Me?<P>I take responcibility for my actions during my (A) and my choice to stray. However we are to both to blame before my (A) I wasn't meeting needs of hers, she wasn't meeting needs of mine.<P>Let me also add. Trying to place blame isn't going to solve anything. Either someone accepts responcibility or they don't.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers, Hugs, and Strength from both of us. Things do and can get better. Keep hoping, learning, and growing. Take care of yourself.<P>[H] and Knewjie<p>[This message has been edited by [H] (edited June 22, 2001).]

Yeah, 'round these parts the cheater is really the victim. <P>Confusing, eh! <P>;^D<P><BR>

Well...thank you thus far- for your replies....hehehe, I get ya Keith! <P>I spoke with my STBX a short time ago, and asked him AGAIN about this situation....<P>He was furious!!<P>Apparently this has not been my fault AT ALL- and he refuses to let me believe that, or to endorse what anyone has to say that says it's so!!! <P>He told me that Satan had such a grip on his life- and just as with Adam and Eve (who had it perfect and lived in paradise), all it took was Satan twisting things a bit- and Wallah!!! The rest is history!!<P>He said that basically he had it perfect and lived in paradise- and everything he needed was right in front of him (his counselor said he had a well in front of him, full of everything he needed to quench his thirst- and that thru his selfishness and turning from God, he consistently threw dirt and garbage in the well- and that now it was his job to clean that well out- but only God could really get it flowing again)...his counselor laid everything out according to God's word and His plan- and that by NO MEANS was his cheating- MY FAULT!!!! Satan blinded him to what he had before him, in me and in our family....<P>Right now- all of the work is on him- and honestly, I am VERY UPSET that so many people here think they are to blame for what has happened in terms of being betrayed!!!<P>I know that there are situations in which marriages are unhappy, spouses needs aren't being met, and the relationship is unfufilled- but this is like blaming the victim!!!!!<P>I might get booted off this board for taking this stance? I don't know- WHy does everyone blame the victim again??<P>But as I looked back over these past 10 years of my marriage with a microscope- I literally cannot find ONE meaningful or superficial reason that would have caused my H to cheat- and even according to him- it was something lacking IN HIM that caused this....<P>He and I are divorcing- but he has turned to me and wants a relationship with me...He is first and foremost working on his relationship with God- and to be honest- I'm in no emotional, spiritual or mental shape to do ANYTHING whatsoever!!<P>How can advice that it is up to the betrayed spouse, who is already devastated and crushed, be the one then repair and change and coerce and play games and use plans,etc., be based on the bible at all??? I don't get that either!!<P>Talk about an unfufilled life!!<P>Uh Oh- I probably will get majorly blasted now!<P>But my STBX is serving God- and has informed me- that this horrendous situation, apparently IS NOT MY FAULT, and there was nothing or is nothing that I could of or can do to change any of it! <P>I'm not responsible for him betraying me, and he said I'm also not responsible for him loving me now- It is all about him and his place spiritually....<P>I guess than, that I'm sorry that so many people think it IS their faults- and are spinning their wheels trying to take the blame...<P>Thanks again for your replies- but I guess I got it straight from the horses mouth (again!)- and I don't buy this "blame the victim" message!<P>Not ashamed of my last 10 years-<BR>TLFM

Hi TLFM,<P>I think some people, perhaps yourself, have a fatalistic view of the world. They let things happen to themselves and say that it was out of their control... Do you find yourself saying things like:<P>If it's meant to be, it will...<P>It must be God's will...<P>There's nothing I can do...<P>I can't help what he did...<P>If you find yourself saying these things then I would suggest that you are this type of person. Myself, I believe that we all have some control over our own destinies. I don't believe that my WS affair was 'my fault', but I do recognize that I helped to create the conditions that made it possible. Is that my fault, no way, she did it all on her own. She decided to not comminucate with me about the problems she felt we were having, she decided to continue elevating a relationship with someone else.<P>Perhaps your husband is realizing what he has done and is trying to compensate you by taking all the blame. To me, this is a little dangerous because it fails to recognize the problems that lead to the affair. And if the both of you don't see that, then the door is left open for another one. He needs to find out for himself what needs you weren't fulfilling and then communicate that to you. You may feel like you did everything right, but because the affair happened, that doesn't seem to be the case. He has to tell you what was missing, and that means being honest with himself, first.<P>All the best.

I'm confused. If your H has found peace through God, then why are you still getting a divorce? Who's idea was it? Who filed?<P>Do you really want to divorce him? And if he wants to maintain a relationship with you, and realizes that he had everything he wanted with you, then why throw it away?<P>It's from what you wrote in your 2nd post that is giving me this thought pattern. Is it that you have both given up on saving your marriage?<P>Karen<BR>

Karen-<BR>My story is way too long- so I will just suffice to say that we would have been married 10 years in Oct of this year- I found out in Jan of this year that he had an A- and then in March he finally admitted to atleast 8 more....<P>At that point- I said- "it's over- leave"...I have gone thru this and seen this in my parents, his parents, and other members of my family- and reconciliation is NOT an option for me.<P>I didn't realize when I told him to beat it- that he was going to turn to God and turn around and decide he loved me (hence my handle- of course- happens too late for me!)- Apparently we can not get on the same page!<P>We are however, friends, we enjoy eachother's company- and I tease him because honestly, he should probably be the one posting here because he loves me know- but I don't plan to travel this same path twice- I told him all along that if he cheated on me- it would be over- and that if he wanted to- let me know first and I would give him his freedom...<P>Out of the 20 or so couples that I PERSONALLY know that have gone through this and "reconciled"- about two of their marriages are good and the rest pretty much suck- they are STILL unfulfilled- and all of them have done this in a supposed "christian manner"-<P>I was born and raised in the church, and am not sure why all of a sudden the man I THOUGHT was a christian- decided to love me when he had me at his finger tips for 10 years, but threw me in the trash-<P>ANYWAY- We are on good terms- and that is why I've been able to openly communicate with him and ask him if it is really true what all of these books and websites say- that I am to blame for his need to look elsewhere...He gets literally LIVID...He says that is unbiblical- just as with his example from Adam and Eve- he said all it is are people looking for excuses, and also that blaming myself would put the power back in my court- as though I had power over his actions (whether to cheat or to love me)- he said NO ONE has power over someone else like that- and it's between him and God and there was nothing and IS nothing that I could do or could have done different...<P>I think that the betrayed spouse being told they are too blame is ridiculous!! There are areas in my life that I want to change, but I KNOW they weren't the cause of him cheating- as I said before- He gave me more reasons to cheat than I EVER gave him- and those are words from HIS mouth!!! He "got his prize" when he married me- and wanted to move on to other conquests because he was too blind to see it and too dumb about what love means...<P>I am going to break this cycle of cheating in terms of my kids- maybe some day, if I take it slowly, and on my terms and with a miracle from God- i could be with this man who has decided to love me- but he royally screwed up for such a long time- I don't plan to travel that path twice!!<P>I know I'm probably not the person who should post on this forum- because so many hurt people do and would love to have their WS do what mine is- repent and love me, but I think these same hurting people should not be blaming themselves for actions that they couldn't control, and really- couldn't have prevented!!!! <P>If someone's mind is closed to their spouse- like my STBX's was to me- THERE WAS NOTHING I COULD DO...<P>Oh well- I hope I haven't been offensive-<P>It's a shame he decided to love me to late.<P>TLFM

The affair is ALWAYS the cheater's fault.<P>Often, but not always, the betrayed did play some role in the relationship being somewhat less than fulfilling (that is NOT an excuse, BTW, but can play a minor role). However, there are exceptions even to that, and mental illness and truly addictive behavior IMHO fall into those exceptions. Nine affairs is addictive behavior, and you did not cause that at all.<P>Kathi

Yes, you are very right in that many on here would love to be in your shoes right now. But at the same time, in my understanding of MB principles anyways, it isn't frowned upon if you cannot handle it. It is HARD work to rebuild.<P>So long as you're doing what's right for you, then that's all that matters (to me anyways) <P>Karen<BR>

Just to throw my two cents in.<P>I am a pastor's wife and my H had an affair with my best friend and preschool assistant. It has now been determined that he is bipolar and that played a lot into his behavior. I have to take issue with the blame the betrayed stance, something I do not entirely agree with in this program, because the needs that the betrayer claims were not met in the marriage often are not expresed to the betrayed. The betrayer took the easy and cheap way to deal with the marriage, by not dealing with it at all. Now they compound the problem infinitely with lies, finger pointing, and denial. Then to turn around and say, "Faithful spouse, you did not meet my needs, so I had an affair" is not something I can accept. Marriage is a sacred union that is solemnized before God amd should be respected as such by both parties, but God looks to the betrayer not only to say they are repentant, but to show it. That takes time. To look at the betrayed and say, "God wants us to forgive (which He does) and you know this is partly your fault" is not constructive, but just serves to victimize the betrayed all over again.<P>I'm sorry to offend any MBers who follow the program to the letter. That is not my purpose. I am trying to reconcile with my husband, but he makes it very difficult because his illness has become his crutch and excuse. I have taken the heat from our church body because I spoke out and tried to get him help. I do not and will not accept responsibility for my husband's behavior. It is his to own. I am here to try to help him with his illness and rebuild what has been torn down, but he knows that if he walks back down that path of sin and destruction again, he has ended this marriage.<P>Thanks for letting me put my two cents in.<P>tearfulnomore

I am completely confused by these responses --- where, oh where does it say in MB literature that the betrayer is to blame? NOWHERE. <B>MB states, and I agree, that the betrayer is 100% responsible for the affair!</B><P>The betrayed spouse is responsible for their part of the <I>demise of the marriage</I> or you could call it: "the envioronment of the marriage that allowed for an affair"... but absolutely, positively NOT for the affair -- NEVER, EVER, EVER!!<P>Am I misunderstanding something here?

Well, there is a little more information now....and it may be true that you are dealing with a WH who has problems that having very little (if nothing) to do with you....I understand that because my WH has some problems that I don't think have much to do with me.<P>I is likely that the wife of a man who has 9 affairs is not responsible for what has caused him to be lead astray...the fault probably lies in some emotional problem that the WH is dealing with....but this is not the usual situation that is dealt with on this board...usually the WH here is only involved with one OW and not a series of women (although there are certainly exceptions to that)...and if you've read enough here you'll find that it is firmly stated often by members that the BS is "never" responsible for the affair. <P>So the inference that BS is somehow responsbile for the affair is wrong...but like has been said several times...there are times when ENs are not met by BS and although that is not a causal factor it is a contributory factor in the disatisfaction that can lead a WH to make the wrong decision or even to stumble into an affair.<P>I think a lot of people don't consciously make a decision to have an affair...it is just something that they stumble into while trying to deal with problems in their marriage...or not trying to deal with them. You can't always point a finger at the BS either because alot of time their failure to meet EN is not on purpose but just out of ignorance or insenitivity. So lets not try to find faulty in this business but rather try to learn from our mistakes and pass that knowledge on to others who are in need.<P>This situation is painful enough that we should just say that there is fault on all sides and just try to deal with solutions. Whether you want to try and work on those solutions is up to you...but with a WH willing to do what is necessary to repair your marriage...you do have an incentive to try.<P><BR>Faye

Too Late For Me?,<BR> There are many of us on the board whose spouses are sex addicts or we call them serial cheaters. In a recent thread this issue was discussed : <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum31/HTML/003467.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum31/HTML/003467.html</A> <BR>I'm not sure why you would continue to question yourself on whose fault it is. Obviously your spouse has a serious problem and it sounds as if he is seeking help.

Too Late For Me?<BR>I agree wholeheartedly with what others are saying...it is the spouse who cheated who is responsible for the affair. But, that said, there are many instances where the "betrayed spouse" played a direct part in making an affair an attractive option.<P>In my case, I am the wife who had an affair. Nearly two years ago, my once-loving husband began withdrawing from me emotionally and physically. He didn't want to touch me, hug me, or make love to me. He barely wanted to talk to me. Did I let him know I was unhappy? You bet I did!! In no uncertain terms!! What my H said to me when I said I needed more love and affection from him was "I have other things to worry about."<P>I didn't go out looking for an affair. I honestly don't think most people who have affairs are searching for it. But when I was down and incredibly lonely and frustrated by my unhappy marriage, I had the misfortune of meeting a man who really enjoyed my company and wanted to spend time with me. It was a friendship at first, but he made me feel so good about myself and he wanted me when my H did not...so I had an affair. I have suffered terrible guilt and regret as a result of what I've done. And yes, I alone made the decision to enter into the affair.<P>But, that said...I also know this to be true: if my H had responded to my needs...if he had shown me more love and not continued to withdraw...I would NEVER HAVE BEEN TEMPTED by another man. And so, in one sense, my H CHOSE to allow me to be unhappy and vulnerable to an affair. I told him I needed him, he chose not to address our problems.<P>Unfortunately, my H has the same viewpoint as you.."If you ever cheat, just forget it, it's over." I think this is a sad way to end a marriage that, except for these recent events, was very happy. Many couples here DO become happily recovered, and their relationships do not "suck." In fact, very many have gone on to have closer, happier, and more committed marriages than ever before. I still love my husband and would do anything to make our marriage work. I am trying to convince him to give it a go.<P>It doesn't sound like you think your marriage had enough going to be worth saving, or investigating why he had his affairs. I'm sure they weren't "your fault," but if you are a Christian and godly woman, and your husband is repentent, why wouldn't you want to preserve your holy union as husband and wife? It sounds as if you are content to go and just want reassurance that it's the right decision and it wasn't your fault. It seems like your H has given you that.<P>So, please forgive me if I have a difficult time accepting your "You cheated, it's over" stance. I still believe I am a good person and a good wife. I made a mistake. It's one that doesn't have to be repeated.<P>calla

Calla-<P>The "It's Over- It's too late for me" stance comes FOR ME- from years and years throughout my childhood of seeing everyone from parents, grandparents siblings and then after marriage, inlaws- go thru this, reconcile- and be none the better for it...often times- WORSE for it- they all turned into having revenge affairs years later, workaholics, or nervous breakdowns!!! NO THANKS!!!!!<P>All of the reasons that you sited for YOU having the affair- were reasons that I HAD to have one the ENTIRE ten years of our marriage- but guess what?? I DIDN'T- HE never listened to me- he literally used to FALL ASLEEP when I tried to talk to him, and when I would cry- he would never say ONE WORD (and if you ask him- he'd say it's true)... He NEVER would be affectionate with me- "Its not my nature"- he was withdrawn and irritable and ALWAYS distant- and that was BEFORE he started sleeping around- If you want reasons to cheat- you could take a look at MY life for the past 10 years!!!<P>I tried SO MANY DIFFERENT things- even to the point of just leaving him alone- I HAD MANY MORE REASONS TO CHEAT than he did- but I took my vows seriously....<P>"You cheated- It's over" is not a hard stance for me to take when I spent almost ten years beaten down and used and lied to- this was more than a "mistake" or a "one time slip up"- it was almost 6 years of deliberate choices to have sex with other people besides me- and HE KNEW my childhood and family history, HE KNEW my fear and misgivings, HE KNEW that it would be over because I always said so- yet none of that mattered enough for him to keep his pants zipped!!! I told him the other day- "You. of all people, YOU knew what this would do to me"- yet he treated me worse than most people treat their dogs- and then went and slept with other people to get his jollies!!<P>I'm sorry that it makes me appear to be "less Godly" of a woman because I can't take his christianity at face value- when I thought thats what I was marrying ten years ago- a christian man that would love me....<P>I think I know from browsing this site that it is truly over for me-<P>I guess I got the crap, and now some other woman will get the good man that I thought maybe once I deserved.<P>I don't care WHAT your reasons are that you are miserable in marriage- YOU DON'T CHEAT!! You end it first- and then move on into a nother relationship or on your own!!!<P>TLFM

.<P> <P> <p>[This message has been edited by jdmac1 (edited August 04, 2001).]

I find your story and mindset a bit odd. You sound very angry, and confused (emotionally anyways). Based on the facts presented (your husband a serial affair person), it is doubtful you have any real responsibility as a BS for even contributing to marital conditions that could facillitate your H perhaps being vulnerable. As you know by now, it is not a blame the BS under any circumstance. <P>I am a ws, I too do not blame my wife in any way for my choice, but I do recognize her role in the emotionally estrangement we lived under for many years. Your husbands insistence on stating the obvious (it was his fault), almost sounds like he is arguing with you over the fact he can do something totally on his own. In some perverse way I wonder if you are so in control of your lives (or percieved that way) that he feels he has no control over anything, but bigosh this A was HIS doing, and he will not allow you to accept any credit (so to speak). So he is not protecting you, he is protecting himself. <P>I find it curious and contradictory that a man who would have 9 affairs, suddenly is so concerned about protecting you, in fact I don't believe it at all. As for the supposed remorse, blaming satan, blah blah blah......I don't think so...sounds like rationalization (and or manipulation) to me. And as for loving you, don't believe that either, his behaviour indicates a serious personality disorder of some kind, and such individuals are psychologically incapable of loving anyone but themselves.<P>No one can tell another what to do, but from what you have described I would be inclined to permanently divorce him too. The deception over pretty much the entire marriage (I presume) would lead me to believe whatever love I might think I have for him is based on a fantasy, and now knowing the truth, choose not too. The test is simple, if you were single and know what you know about his nature now (not having affairs, just his psychology etc.) would you choose him again? Cause that is what you would be doing if you reconcille. On the other hand, doing the MB stuff does not mean a committment to stay married, and you will learn alot about yourself, cause you do have issues TLFM, whether that microscope worked or not, and they are obvious reading between your words. As MB points out, it is generally best to work out your own problems in whatever circumstance you find yourself, until you have full understanding, then act. You have plenty of life left, 6 months of marital training could be a good investment in your future. You did play a role in this train wreck, no one can participate in a relationship and not affect it, all of it, but your role is not so obvious, if you do the work it will become so. Frankly your fixation on blame is a red flag in itself, blame is a useless concept in human relationships, understanding the truth is what is important, and then acting on it in a responsible way, you seem to have done neither....why?