Okay. The situation for this question is this: H (WS) and I have been in recovery for about one month now. On the 21st (our 4th wedding anniversary), I discovered that he is still having some contact (via phone and email) with OW#1. I have given him the ultimatum that it's her or us (me and the 3 kids, with one on the way).<P>He wants us. He is willing to break off all contact. But he REFUSES to do the no contact letter. I have reluctantly agreed that he can establish no contact via a phone call.. however, it is to be done in my presence, and he is to not allow her to say anything in response, and we are to work together on his 'script'.<P>He has been avoiding doing it. He is convinced that my asking him to initiate the no contact is in order for me to take control over him. He claims he can do it, on his own terms. As far as I'm concerned, I already gave him that chance when he came back home one month ago.. and he failed.<P>Any advice on how to tackle this? Should I give him yet another ultimatum as to a time frame when he MUST call and tell her (that would be a huge LB)? Should I just remind him as nicely as possible everyday? I understand that the WS has to agree to the no contact, and my H has already done that, but my patience has just about run dry on this one. I need it to be done in the next few days (at the most). <P>I'm not sure if I've given enough info here for advice, but I'm grasping at straws looking for anything. Any comments would be greatly appreciated.<P>Karen<BR>

Karen,<P>I hear you. Its so hard. I think it says in the surviving an affair book that if the WS had his way he would take the OP on a cruise to end it. My H actually did take her to Hawaii to end it ... geeze I hate that.<P>But see if you can look at it from the viewpoint of she is now nothing to you, that it is your relationship that is important and she is but a speck of dirt that means nothing. Stop giving her so much importance. Build your relationship so he doesnt need to talk to her. Please dont bug him ever day about it. Maybe try the POJA. Set up a plan for how he would like to end it. Explain your feelings, that it hurts you, that it stops you from moving past this. Suggest that he is hurting her... giving her false hope to hang on, to think they can continue as friends, so she can not move on either. <P>But as long as your relationship is going well, if he is talking to you, telling you about the contact, thank him and cut him some slack. I think it is hard to end, and I would rather it drag out a little at this point that have him lieing about it and going back to it later.<P>I dont know, I stuggle with this too, can you tell? I am gearing up to ask him if he has talked to her at wok this week.<BR>Lora

His way to end it, is to just stop calling or emailing her. He claims that should he hear from her, then that is when he will tell her to stop contacting him so that he and I can work on our marriage. But I gave him that chance, and he didn't do it. Sure, he's given me a pile of excuses, the number one putting blame on me by telling me that I never asked him directly whether or not he still spoke to or emailed her. BULL!! <P>I have told him how much her presence in any shape or form is destructive to our rebuilding, and hurts me deeply. I have also explained to him that he has been lying to both of us. He (according to her) told her that it was okay by me that he keep all of his friends. WHATEVER!!! And yet although I requested that she be the bigger person in all of this, and stop contacting or talking or emailing my H, she refuses to, unless she hears it from H.<P>Actually.. here's what I wrote to her (after finding an email they sent to each other):<P>" I am very sorry to hear that you and H are still keeping in touch. He is well aware that all contact with you (and the other women) must end in order for he and I to work things out. I was told by him that he told that to you. That is obviously not the case. Yes, those are MY conditions.<P>If you care about he and I working things out (like he says you do), then be the bigger person here and please stop contacting H".<P>And this is what I got back:<P>"Hey listen... he told me that he told YOU that he is remaining friends with his friends! So do not blame me!!! If he chooses of his own free will not to be friends with me then all HE has to do is say so and not by email as it will more than likely be you playing your games once again... you will now be blocked from harrassing me via this method again!<P>GET A F*****G LIFE!!!!"<P>Of course, I shared this lovely email with H, I had told him about my email to her right after writing it actually. And although she is proving her very ugly side yet again, H is still in the fog over her talking about what a great confidant she has been to him, yada yada yada. I dunno.. does that sound like someone who is happy to hear that H and I are working on our marriage?? I don't think so! And to think, that message is coming from an at home child care worker who has a 4 yr old dd and H of her own! SAD!<P>Karen<BR>

His way CAN work. It did for us. I never insisted on "no contact", actually understood that while in the fog, Robert felt he and PT could be friends - close friends. (They lived together for months.) I knew it was bull, but he didn't. And, in the fog, you cannot educate, you cannot make them see anything they're not ready to see.<P>I asked him to tell me each week how often they talked. He didn't at first, but then he did. I just thanked him and told him how happy I was that we could be honest with each other. Eventually, she plucked his very last nerve and HE did the "no contact" (by having her transferred, not by letter or anything else, just not answering or returning calls, etc.) all by himself. Meant an awful lot to me, Topie. Knowing he did this because HE decided it was best, not because I insisted. Hard? At first, it was hard, kissing him goodbye each morning knowing she was there waiting, putting on her best, charming, etc. But one day I realized I hadn't thought of her in weeks. Heck, she wasn't my problem. My marriage was my problem and no one could interfere with it if we made it strong.<P>Now, all Harleyites, I am NOT by any means suggesting that no contact is not valid. It is best for the betrayed, without a doubt. The WS, I'm not so sure. It definitely makes it easier to focus on the relationship, but it leaves them with wonderful memories and I think I liked it better that Robert played his out and was left thinking she was a selfish little b****! To each his own. But I don't have to worry if he sees her again - she's nothing. No contact is the best, but not the only way.<P>You're giving her WAYYYYY too much power, Topie. If it ain't her, it'll be someone else or something else. You make your marriage the best it can be, with the help of your still foggy spouse (he will wake up eventually) and she won't matter a hill of beans. Not to him OR to you. Don't think I'd have PT over to dinner now, but I don't get even a twinge when I see her in pictures with Robert at his family's house (they were together through his b-day, T-day and Christmas and his family accepted her. most pics have been cut up or destroyed - LOVE my MIL - but a few remain...no biggie).<P>No contact is best. And if you need it, then you need it. Period. But I'm not so sure that it's absolutely mandatory. You marriage CAN recover, your H CAN be faithful and you CAN heal without it. It just happens differently. We're doing just fine.<P>Lori

Okay.. how's this for my interpretation?<P>I talk to H, and tell him that I need for him to stop all contact with OW (again). Then I ask him to let me know whenever either of them contact the other (again). I also share how important it will be to me to know that he is being fully honest with me (again). Then I tell him that he can end things in his way (that's a new one, sort of).<P>Would it be such a bad thing for me to insist that he not end things face to face with her (in person)? Because that is something I cannot bear the thought of.<P>He has been somewhat good so far, and has let me look at his cell phone records, and the actual phone (which has call display and records incoming, outgoing, and missed calls), as well as his inbox to his email (although he refuses to give me the password... I'm working on that one). That just doesn't seem to be enough for me. <P>I HATE having to blindly trust him (for example, I have no idea who he calls or gets calls from at work on their phone lines). It's so hard, because I truly do not have enough faith in him that he will be able to stop all contact. That's sad, I know. But I also have every reason to feel that way (because after all, he's been lying about being in touch with her this past month as well).<P>Now all I have to do is figure out how I am going to bring this up in conversation tonight. I cannot let it fester another day (even though it's only been 2 days since it was last discussed). H will be home from work by 6pm, so at least I have a few more hours to think about it.<P>Thanks for the encouragement that H's way could work. I do want their relationship to die a natural death, and I agree that that is the best way so that he doesn't keep only good memories.<P>Lora and Lori (and anyone else who can answer): How long did contact continue after recovery had started? I'm just wondering if I'm in for another long journey on this one.<P>Karen<P>

Wow Topied. This is a tough one. When you talk to him tonight, be nice, VERY nice. Start by explaining your issue, how you can't seem to trust him given that he's been in contact with her this past month. Explain that you know he wants to be friends, but that is just not possible given their history, it causes you too much pain. How would he suggest giving you the reassurance you need? It's bugging you daily and you want to move on, what can HE do to help with your problem. (I know it's HIS problem, but this will probably get a better reaction).<P>I think this goes along with Lora's suggestion to use POJA. Can you do this?

Hi Topie:<P>This "no contact" business is a hard one for me because I've always seen it as a stubbling block in restoring the relationship....particularily where the WH feels like he can just remain friends with OW. <P>I really do think that in their minds the WH believe that they can be friends with the OW after the affair...somewhat similar to the idea that they can be friends with BS after the affair....neither one is possible because of the intense emotions involved. If the A was a true affair and not just a one-night stand, then they will have real feelings for this person at some point and they don't want to have to deal with hurting that person (or at least deal with having to face them and hurt them) even if they don't want to be with them anymore. So it's easier to just ignore the whole thing (let her get the message by not returning her calls) and hoping it will all go away.<P>I'm with Lostva on this...I believe that until the connection (at what level or on what level) established with this A is over in WH's mind it is not over...and no amount of forcing,threatening or untimatiums will really work. So I think that I would just reaffirm to WH now necessary it is for the restoration of the marriage (and for my sanity and ability to rebuild trust) for him to have no contact and that I would leave the issue of contact with him and hope that he would resolve this matter as quickly as possible.<BR>From then on I would let it die as an issue unless or until some time has passed and you have knowledge that he is still maintaining contact.<P>Trust has to start somewhere and this is as good a place as any....start believing that you are the most important thing in his life from this point on...and act like it. Like Lostva said...forget about OW...center yourself in your marriage....and you won't have to worry about OW...because now WH has something that he won't give up for anything in the world....you and his reborn marriage.<P>Faye

Months. Honestly. But it didn't BOTHER me for all those months. After a while, she was being so persistant (I'm talking 12-20 calls a day on his cell, bringing lunch to him on the job, calling for help at the house, you cannot even imagine) that it just grew to be part of the day. "You'll never believe what our friend did THIS week!"<P>At first he didn't tell me the truth, Topie. He was afraid of my reaction. And I'll be honest, he had second thoughts about their relationship at first, too. But when I asked and he DID tell me, I just thanked him and asked him if HE was ok. Ok, this may seem a little strange to some, but here goes. I firmly believe that people at least try to live up/down to our expectations. I made it a point every single day to tell Robert how much I believed in him, trusted him, how proud I was of him to have the courage to come home and work on our marriage. I don't lie well, so before I did that, I had to decide to FEEL that way as well. Trust is a gift. Face it, it can't even really be earned for a long, long time. (Ok, it took Robert 12 years to betray me, so if he's faithful for say 13, I can trust him again? Nahhhh....) I decided I was gonna go nuts, I had no control over his actions anyway, I certainly couldn't control PT's, so I might as well trust - at least to some extent. So I sat him down and told him that I was giving him my heart and my trust and I believed he'd take care of it. And then I reinforced it every day. At one point he actually told me "Your belief in me makes me believe in myself....makes me strong.....makes me want to be a good man."<P>Was he perfect? Nope. Not even close. He felt sorry for her and felt affection for her and he couldn't turn his back on her for a long time. She knew it too and played it to the hilt! So, I just got into the game as well...when she called 'cause her x-roomie had "stolen" all her pots and pans, dishes, flatware, etc (we found out later it wasn't), he picked her up and took her to K-Mart and bought her a few inexpensive things to replace them. He was scared to death to tell me, but he DID. "Oh, poor, thing. No one deserves to be treated like that. What did A take? What else does she need? What did you get her?" And I bopped myself out to WalMart and picked up a couple of things myself for him to take her from ME! LOL Heck, no, I didn't believe any of it, but Robert appreciated , no...was amazed....at the gesture. Lots of junk like that. And she'd just get madder and madder. I'd look better and better. We got stronger and stronger and ......POOF!!!!!........no more PT. Coolest part was, I didn't care long before that. He had had her transferred and forgot to tell me and I hadn't asked for WEEKS before it just came out in conversation. "PT came out to the job today...what do you mean, I thought she WORKED ont he job....oh, I forgot to tell you..." LOL<P>It's a stretch to trust. We have every reason not to. And trusting puts our hearts right back out there to get trampled again. But the fact of the matter is, if we don't, we'll go stark raving nuts! Remember the Irish Blessing or whatever it is "....to accept the things I cannot change...."? That's pretty much it. You can't be with him 24/7 and if you were, he'd never grow strong. He HAS to grow, Topie. And most of that is on his own, with our encouragement and faith, but still on his own. He may falter, stumble, plain ole screw up! (just did, right? ). But that doesn't mean he's not giving his best or that he'll keep doing it. Heck, took me quite a few tries to quit smoking, but I finally did it! When I was strong enough, with encouragement from my husband and daughter and by NOT telling anyone else (like my mom who hounded me constantly!). You don't want to control him, you want to inspire him to do the right thing.<P>Tell him how you feel. Tell him you really want to feel better. ASK him to help you feel better. Sometimes I'm amazed at how much more folks are willing to offer when it's THEIR idea. POJA. Talk. Take a small leap of faith, whatever you can manage. More will come later.<P>Good luck.<P>Lori

Here's what happened:<P>Last night, after H came home from work, we relaxed for a couple of hours. We had a trailer full of his things outside (that we had gathered and loaded the night before). When we were just about ready to open it up and start unloading it into my house, I brought the topic up again. We only talked about it for 10 minutes or so, but that was enough for me.<P>Moving the items in was the first step in getting all of his things back here (he still has some things in his apt, including some furniture... but the majority of his clothes are already here from a month ago).<P>Our talk reaffirmed my feelings on how important it is for me for the contact to completely stop between him and OW#1. Although he wasn't able to look me straight in the eyes (I hated that ), he said he understood, and would end it, his way. That after I asked him how it is he wanted to do it. Then I looked at him, and said, "So this is it. This makes it official? You moving back here? And us making a strong effort to work on us?". "Yes" was the answer.<P>I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the right thing will be done by him. I will remind him tonight (if the time is right), that I would like him to be honest with me if she calls or emails or vice versa. And of course, I certainly hope it won't take months for this to end. But I will be looking for withdrawal signs to cue my questions about her.<P>Karen<BR>

Karen:<P>Just in case you don't remember, I am zorweb's WS (well, exWS, as our recovery is going remarkably well).<P>The no contact letter was the hardest. Instituting no contact was easy enough, as was committing fully to working on our marriage using the MB principles. It took some prodding, and I finally got it done.<P>I turned it over to zorweb to send. This did two things: it reaffirmed my commitment to meeting her needs (the letter was a biggie) and it made me stop my avoidance of an unpleasant task (something most humans are prone too).<P>My point in this is this: it shouldn't be on HIS terms, it should be on yours ... after all, it is YOUR need he is fulfilling. And, no, it does not have to be confrontatial: in fact, the rules of protection and care should be definitely adhered to.<P>But I am glad to hear that things are working out for you. Our thoughts and prayers go with you,<P>Godspeed and good luck,<BR>STL