You've all read my previous posts. I have a few questions and comments for all of you.<P>Over the last 7 months my wife has told me that my behavior and some of the things I've said over the years have made her feel that:<P>what she says or thinks doesn't matter<P>nothing she does is good enough<P>she is not attractive; she is fat<P>However, she has also told me that she always felt this way growing up (I never knew it before). I think some of the issues she's blaming me for are issues she's had long before she met me, although I readily admit that I've said and done things over ther years to reinforce these feelings. I suspect she may have shared these feelings with OM when they were in the "just friends" stage, which would have made it easy for him to make her feel better about herself.<P>The question I have for you is how do I approach her with my feelings about the affair (which she won't admit to).<BR>I was thinking of saying something like:<P>"I feel betrayed by your relationship with OM. I'm doubt that you ever meant for it to happen, but it did. I believe the things I heard on the tape recorder are true. I could sense the excitement in your voice when you talked about him or to him, and I could sense the bitterness in your voice when you talked about me. I know that you've lied and decieved me to conceal your relationship, and I hope you never have to feel the pain I'm in."<P>Any thoughts? Is there any disadvantage to telling how I feel?<P>sad dad<P><BR>

sad dad - you asked, "Is there any disadvantage to telling how I feel?"<P>My answer: Never.<P>That said, you need to say it without anger and without making her feel judged. So, stating your feelings like, "I feel hurt..." instead of "You hurt me..." is important.<P>Instead of saying what you want to say, consider writing a Plan A letter - the same as a Plan B letter without the no contact punch line.<P>If you're interested, I'll dig up the letter I wrote.<P>WAT<BR>

wat,<P>I would like to see you letter if you can find it. Did it help? I would really like to talk with her though. I've written several letters that I've never had a response to. <BR>As I've said before, not talking about our feelings (hurt, disappointment, etc.) has been a problem in our marriage. I think she'll need to look in my eyes to see the pain. <P>sad dad

I agree with wat, one thing I (and my w) have learned is how ingrained it is in most of us to express our "feelings" in ways that are not true expressions, but are sneakily judgemental, coercive, selfish, angry....etc. Just saying you are expressing your feelings (as a defense) doesn't cut the mustard, that will work during normal times when people just won't push the issue, but under these circumstances it will get you killed (so to speak). Controllers have this problem in spades, and they are often in their own denial about it, that is why the harley's (to their credit) say unequivocally it is the recipient of your communications that decides whether it is an angry outburst, selfish demand, disrespectful judgement, annoying habit, or emotional dishonesty...NOT YOU, rememeber that, engrave it on your forehead.<P>Your suggested communication in this post to your W STUNK, reeked with control (no offense, I know you are trying). If I were your w, and you said that to me I would unload on you (if you were lucky), but mostly I would have been so mad I couldn't see straight, and would just leave (till I cooled down, but pushed away even more). QUIT talking about HER, talk about your feelings in terms other than her, what she did, and most definitely do not talk in analytical ways about her (her voice, her stuff etc.). I know it is annoying and hard to understand, but we do not need or want your forgiveness, or your understanding, nor are we all that interested in your pain (we care in a detached way, and know we are at fault, but wanting us to feel guilty is counter-productive, it feels like you only care about yourself, and that is 2/3 of the problem to begin with).<P>All I would tell her is you want the marriage to work, you understand how you have contributed to the emotional estrangement, that you are very unhappy with your behaviour, and you are sorry. You can see she is very unhappy too, and rightly so, and that you would like to do the MB stuff, cause it would give you both peace of mind that you tried, be a positive growth, and that you will not object to her leaveing if it does not work. Remind her that if you do the counselling (and I highly recommend it for controllers) that someone else will be holding you accountable, and sticking up for her. Although my w and I have lots of issues, which may be unresolvable, one thing that has happened with the counselling is that the counsellor will not let her pull any controlling stuff, it is wonderful. No more implications, no more tone of voice, no more subtle focus on her being a victim, no more improper choice of words, no more talking about her feelings in terms of me, no more coercive suggestions, no more analysis of my faults...etc. etc.<P>QUIT PHRASING YOUR FEELINGS IN TERMS OF HER BEHAVIOUR/ CHOICES.<P>Jeez, no offense, but I get so angry when I read your post (just read it again), hope I am not coming across to judgemental, but I really feel for your wife. If this is just a small sample (and now motivated to boot), I don't really think you have a clue to how deeply she wants to escape (and with good reason). But anyways, I feel the same things you mention your wife says, and that is cause they are true, that is what controllers do to control, keep their supposed loved ones off balance emotionally. It becomes so ingrained, and habitual you don't even know you are doing it, but it works, cause we know you will just get mad (angry, overbearing, uncooperative, feign hurt, coercive in so many dishonest ways)if challenged, so we give up (cause we don't want to fight), and just go along, until we run away. People think controllers are just verbally abusive monstwers NO NO NO, the worst kind are the ones who act more or less responsibly, are decent parents, don't overtly abuse, aren't alcoholics, good providers/workers, but try to fix us all the time, and have all the answers, for our own good doncha know. They are focused on themselves, and it sucks big time. (so if any of this fits, wear it, otherwise ignore it).<P>If you truly want this to work, you are going to have to make momumental changes in your psychology, that is going to be very very hard (it is for anyone). I am partly convinced anymore that mismatched people bring out the worst in each other. It is possible a w with a different psychology would never have let you get away with this stuff, and you would have worked out an accomodation that was not one-sided. And IMO that is ok, you are obviously a strong-willed person, and I assume, a basically decent respectful guy. This is not about you being bad, or your wife either, it is about whether you and she fit. It is not really fair you spend the rest of your life 2nd guessing yourself either as you try to fit your wife. People come in different temperaments, have conflicting needs, and I do believe in irreconcilable differences. Yes one can MAKE themself get along with anybody, but should that be our model of marriage? Just make it work? Work is in order, but IMO there should be something else too, an almost effortless fitting like two matched gears, together driving this most intimate of human relationships. Everyone does not fit everyone IMO.<P>re the letter, that might be a good idea, is much easier to get it right, plus if you want the face to face, you can just read it to her. It is interesting to me (maybe I am wrong) it seems people like being read to, and letters in general. As to your previous letters can't say, but maybe no response has to do with how you wrote them (could have been annoying). As for looking in your eyes and seeing your pain (I know you wrote that before reading this), but if you keep talking about your pain I think I am gonna throw up (sorry for the visual). If you want this to work FOCUS on your wife (forget you, and that is what plan A is about as well), that is what caused the dang problem in the first place (not the A, was her choice, but the marital estrangement).<P>As for wanting to talk with her about stuff, let her decide when, what, etc. Stop contolling (I know I am getting annoying here, but you did ask), you just do your stuff, she will talk when she is ready (but the counselling really helps with that, so as gently as possible, try to get her interest in that, maybe she could talk to one first so she can tell her "side").<P><BR>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited June 25, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited June 25, 2001).]

snl,<P>Thanks for your response. Ouch! You are right in many regards, especially the following:<P>... I feel the same things you mention your wife says, and that is cause they are true, that is what controllers do to control, keep their supposed loved ones off balance emotionally. It becomes so ingrained, and habitual you don't even know you are doing it, but it works, cause we know you will just get mad (angry, overbearing, uncooperative, feign hurt, coercive in so many dishonest ways)if challenged, so we give up (cause we don't want to fight), and just go along, until we run away. People think controllers are just verbally abusive monstwers NO NO NO, the worst kind are the ones who act more or less responsibly, are decent parents, don't overtly abuse, aren't alcoholics, good providers/workers, but try to fix us all the time, and have all the answers, for our own good doncha know. They are focused on themselves, and it sucks big time. (so if any of this fits, wear it, otherwise ignore it).<P>It fits!!!<P>As I said in an earlier post, I wrote my wife a letter a week or so ago. In it I said exactly what you are saying I should say. I acknowledged the things I did that contributed our situation, that I can only imagine how she felt, and that I was sorry. I did not blame her any mistakes she may have made through the years, and I did not mention OM. I did not express my desire for our marriage to work in the letter because I thought she may feel pressured. However, I did when we talked about the letter a few days later. <P>I appreciate you "telling me like it is". I want your help and the help of others, as brutally honest as it may be. <P>sad dad

snl,<P>Are there any books, websites, etc. that you know that have more info on "controllers", perhaps more from "controlee's" perspective? You've given me something to think about!<P>sad dad<P>

SD...Are there any books, websites, etc. that you know that have more info on "controllers", perhaps more from "controlee's" perspective? You've given me something to think about!<P>Snl...Don't know any in particular, but sure there are plenty, just don't take anything as gospel, do your own work. But I will say you might find it helpful to also talk with one of the harley's. The thing is we all control, one can control by being passive and avoiding also, I have no insight to what your wife's real state of mind might be, and she may have serious issues too, that are not your fault. But as you can imagine, a dominant/submissive marriage is dynamite. The thing is, from what I have read, all marriages have a designated dominant one, and a designated submissive one, this is the consequence of the murky ways humans choose mates, it is an emotional contract we all enter into (unfortuneately we don't know it). The emotional health of a marriage is in part reflected in that contract. It must be more or less equal, and therein lies the negotiation that MB is essentially dealing with. For good health both parties must express dominance and submission, the dominant one has to work at being submissive some of the time, the submissive one has to work at being dominant some of the time. As long as it is somewhere close to the middle, it works say 59%/41% to 50/50. This can be hard to do, depends on how vested each is in their behaviour (meaning what do they get out of it intrenally, which is what drives all of us anyways). Guess I can recommend two books, Dr. Phil Mcgraw book on Life Strategies, good for understanding why we do the things we do...and Crazy Time : Surviving Divorce and Building a New Life by Abigail Trafford (Paperback - January 1993) sounds like a divorce manual, but mostly is case studies of divorces in terms of dominance/submissive behaviour, is very interesting.<P>Keep in mind that ultimately it comes down to whether you and your wife choose each other as a life partner, no matter what you do, she may not so choose. The goal IMO should not be to fix anybody, or repair anything, but to reach a point where each party is clear-headed enough to make that informed choice. No reputable psychologist, including Dr. Phil, or MB believes in sacrificial marriage, where one stays because of vows, or guilt, or coercion of any kind. Marriage should be only a passionate choice, made because you cannot imagine spending your life with anyone else, because you are crazy in love with them. Others say no, just shoulder to the wheel, and work work work.... they are nuts, and generally not very happy people (although they can often fake it pretty good).....duh.<BR> <P>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR>one thing I (and my w) have learned is how ingrained it is in most of us to express our "feelings" in ways that are not true expressions, but are sneakily judgemental, coercive, selfish, angry....etc. Just saying you are expressing your feelings (as a defense) doesn't cut the mustard, <P>This is sooooooo true, I really do not know how to talk with my husband anymore, cuz he twists what I say, so I very rarely say how I feel!!<P>(Quote by sad_n_lonely)Jeez, no offense, but I get so angry when I read your post (just read it again), hope I am not coming across to judgemental, but I really feel for your wife. If this is just a small sample (and now motivated to boot), I don't really think you have a clue to how deeply she wants to escape (and with good reason). But anyways, I feel the same things you mention your wife says, and that is cause they are true, that is what controllers do to control, keep their supposed loved ones off balance emotionally. It becomes so ingrained, and habitual you don't even know you are doing it, but it works, cause we know you will just get mad (angry, overbearing, uncooperative, feign hurt, coercive in so many dishonest ways)if challenged, so we give up (cause we don't want to fight), and just go along, until we run away. People think controllers are just verbally abusive monstwers NO NO NO, the worst kind are the ones who act more or less responsibly, are decent parents, don't overtly abuse, aren't alcoholics, good providers/workers, but try to fix us all the time, and have all the answers, for our own good doncha know. They are focused on themselves, and it sucks big time. (so if any of this fits, wear it, otherwise ignore it).<P><BR>snl...this describes my husband to a T!! He has said so many times that he just wants to fix ME!! Everything he says, the lectures he gives are just to help ME!! I am working on ME, I am reading books, praying, and delving deeper into ME than I ever have before, and yet, none of that is good enough, cuz it has to be my husband who fixes ME!! It is exhasperating, to say the least. <P>sad dad, don't fall into that mode of behavior, or you will run your wife off for sure. God only knows why I am still married.......sigh<P>(Quote by sad_n_lonely)If you truly want this to work, you are going to have to make momumental changes in your psychology, that is going to be very very hard (it is for anyone). <P>very hard, and humbling, but if you are wanting to save your marriage it is something you must do.<P>(Quote by sad_n_lonely)As for wanting to talk with her about stuff, let her decide when, what, etc. Stop contolling (I know I am getting annoying here, but you did ask), you just do your stuff, she will talk when she is ready (but the counselling really helps with that, so as gently as possible, try to get her interest in that, maybe she could talk to one first so she can tell her "side").<P>also be very careful in the tone of voice you use, my husband sometimes says very thoughtful and caring things with a condemning tone in his voice, I really don't know how to interprept what he says at times.....<P>someone else also said something about counseling, and their controlling spouse, my husband and I have been to about 6 counselors, (professional and clergy) any time they come down on him for anything, we do not return. sigh.....<BR><p>[This message has been edited by stilldreamin (edited June 25, 2001).]

snl,<P>Interesting point about dominant/submissive personalaties.<BR>One of the reasons I fell in love with my W is that she was a very headstrong, "tell it like it" is person, much like me. Over the years, I became more dominant and she became more submissive. That balance wasn't there. My, how the roles have changed now. That balance was there in the beginning and we were truly happy then. Might be something I should discuss with her. I will look into the books you mentioned. <P>stilldreamin,<P>My W and I did try counseling for a short time, but I did not handle it well. I felt like I was being attacked and got defensive. A natural human reaction, but it undermined what we were trying to accomplish. I should have just listened to what she was trying to tell me, really listened and kept my mouth shut. I admitted to this in my "letter". Maybe someday I'll post that letter here. I'd like to give counseling another try, but I don't think that's a consideration for her at this point. Maybe down the road. <BR>I think I'm much better prepared for what to expect.<P>Contrary to what you may think, I haven't really tried to<BR>"force" her to talk. I've left that up to her. I've tried to spend as much time with our daughter as I can and just keep busy. One thing I have been doing lately, is that when she does talk to me, about anything, I look her in the eye and give her my undivided attention. <P>Question to both of you. How do I "plan A" when:<P>1. she denies the affair<P>2. shows no desire to work on the marriage <P>sad dad

sad dad - below is my Plan A letter. Unfortunately, I can't say it worked, but who knows what would have happened if I hadn't sent it.<P>Regarding your question about Plan A'ing if she denies the affair and won't work on the marraige? It doesn't matter. My wife was also one of these. Plan A is more about you than her. Find and fix your faults, demonstrate your improvements, meet whatever ENs she'll let you, and DON'T LOVEBUST!!!. Other than that, strap in and hang on. The best way to hasten the end of the affair is not to interfere with it.<P>WAT<P>****************<BR>Dear <Wife>,<P>We don't get many chances to talk, so I'll write this instead.<P>As I've said before, I still love you and want a chance to repair our relationship. This is despite knowing your affair with <OM> is continuing. I am painfully aware that I was not meeting your needs as a husband and I apologize for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with <OM> possible. <P>I have grown tremendously from this experience and I ask you to open your mind and see the changes for yourself. <Son> and I are closer than ever and I acknowledge that I did not always show him the respect he deserved. He has told me he loves me more than ever before. I have looked at myself from your perspective and have recognized that my emotional outbursts of the past were judgmental, insensitive, and counterproductive. I have a new appreciation for your need to be able to freely express yourself without hesitation. You can feel safe voicing your anger and concerns. Whatever happens to us, these changes are permanent in me and I am a better person because of them. I am soon starting with a therapist to explore other aspects I can work on. I feel much better about myself as a person and as an individual, I am strong and well along in my recovery. My life goes on.<P>During this experience my efforts have been on changing me, not on blaming anyone else expecting them to change. I am the only person I can change. I know I have other improvements to make - and you can help me. Similarly, I can be the best person to help you make changes - if you allow me in. In short, I will avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and we can create a new life for the three of us that will meet all of our needs. It won't happen overnight and it'll take a lot of work, but we owe it to <son> to try hard to make it work. Choosing not to try is the blind way out and it leaves the same problems unsolved and creates more difficult ones.<P><Son> and I are the two men who together can help you become happy for the rest of your life. We are a permanent reality, here for the long haul, and we have a lot of good memories for the foundation of a family. Similarly, you can make the two of us very, very happy. We want you and need you. I will support any need you have in a non-judgmental way when or if you decide to end your affair. You can come to me in safety, knowing I will embrace you. Even if you're not sure, I will understand and provide empathy.<P>Whenever you are ready to talk, I'll be ready to listen. I loved you when I married you and I love you to this day. I am willing to do whatever it takes to put our family back together. I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage so that we meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We can build a new relationship in which everything we do makes all three of us happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate.<P>I am here for you and I love you,<P><Me><BR>

wat,<P>Thank you for sharing something so personal. I don't know your story. What is your current situation?<P>From my limited understanding of Plan A, I think I've been doing it all along to some degree. I have had no angry outbursts, I have not criticized my W. I've been pleasant and friendly and as loving as she will allow. When I confronted her with what I knew, I did not raise my voice, condemn her, judge her, lecture her. I just told her what I knew and have not brought it up since (although she has).<P>I've spent alot of time with my daughter and I think we've become closer. I've worked very hard trying to make the changes that I felt were necessary for me. I've become more patient and I'm more even keeled. <P>My W has acknowledged some of these changes. She said I don't seem as cocky. I think she meant in a "know it all" kind of way. She told a mutual friend that I've been so nice and that I seem to have changed (she wasn't really specific).<BR> <BR>I told my W that I would like to work on our marriage, but understand that she wants a divorce. I did not try to talk her out of it or convince her that she is wrong. <P>I saw a thread on here entitled "plan A or appeasement?". I was told once by a friend from another website that I've got to do what works, not what's right. Isn't that what Plan A is all about?<P>sad dad <P>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited June 25, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited June 25, 2001).]