This is harder then I thought . Reading all of your posts.... Makes me sooo sad.... <P>I’m kind of "OK" right now - I’m cooping!!! .with my withdrawal even though I miss him with every fiber of my soul - but I will not call him - then I read - excuse my language but ”****” like It was all a ”fog” and that we will all get passed it - So I listen!!!!! - and I try to believe you!!! - But after over a year I still ”hope” It’s still just a fog???? - now who is fooling who?? - You talk about "fantasy" and "real life" - Have you ANY Idea what an affair out in the open does to you?????? - There is no fanasy there is COAPING with everyone and everything around you. And for Fanatasy speaking - I have a reaity and so does he - why do you think that bills/resposabsilities/foodshopping etc etc..... end becuse you have an affair????. So you thing life STOPS???? - NO I will tell you It gets WORSE - You have to deal wit Real life and then deal with the infauatoin ASWELL! - Never thought about that did you?<P>REALLITY - Is still there - wake-up call!!!!! - OR have I missunderstood what you meant by fantasy/reality? - If so please informe me since I don't see that I would suddenly dropp all my resposibilitirs just because I did the stupied misstake to get involved with a MM. <P>So what the F**k is real life?. We all live in it (REAL LIFE) don't we????<P>OK - I have said my peace. In all honety I hope that MM will find hos way back to his W. I really do!!! Why ? - because I never intended to hurt anyone - I fell inlove and I made a choice. Everyonew can make the wrong choice. <P>As for the pain Zorweb - well whatever it is you can never compare the similarities of the PAIN that the BS feels and what the OW feels - Sorry Z - Not intended as a hurtful post but you ticked me off.....SO.....<P>... No I have never been married and I do not have children neither has the (x) MM and I kind of took a ”small offense” to your post that people that wore not ”married” had the ”girlfriend/boyfriend” emotions and that they could NEVER be as real as the BS/WS’s or married peoples emotions. O beg to differ!. What the Heck do you know about my emotions or of the MM or his W (or anyone’s emotions for that matter?) ????? - Don’t statistic me ! -please! - We all hurt here and your comment about what ”hurts more” weightier you are a BS or an OW or a WS Is out of line!. You can read all the books in the world. But who are you to say who hurts. - Who hurts more/less then you do because of what their ”commitment” is???? - What makes you think that I don’t hurt less then a BS? - Just tell me Z???? - Is it because I didn’t make a WOW infront of ”minister” (is that the correct word for a person that ”wedds” (sp?) people?) ? Does that make my feelings any less true ? -OR Is it because I - I have no feelings unless they contribute to the society norm????? - or???? - Is it because what???? - what makes you think that I hurt less???? At least it is in my opinion . So are you saying that If you have not been married you can not feel pain?????. Or that the pain is ”less” because you are not married? . With all do respect Z - that’s a bunch of bull! - PAIN IS PAIN - I do not COMPARE IT I JUST FEEL IT!!!!! - What on earth made you come up with COMPARING apples and pears????<P>No disrespect to you Zorweb - just my trying to understand!!!! - Please know that I have the deepest respect for you (THAT IS TRUE!!!!!!) and I have often been thinking to contributing a post just for you to simply say ”THANKS for BEING here”. So please don’t take this wrong - I’m just at a state where I’m trying to understand more then I can handle *SMILE*. So I hope you will not get upset with what I wrote but I still stand for it.<P>I’m just trying to cope with loosing the love of my life because of what is ”right”. But in my heart the love will never go away even though I have to sacrifice it in this lifetime.<P>Please don’t kill me - I’m NOT having any contact with him and I will not ever have one even though he want us to be ”friends” - I have realized that I can not just befriends”.<P>I know I have upset a few people here by being the OW and I will keep my distance - still Thanks for letting me ....what is the word you use...Hmmmm.VENT- :<BR>)<P>Peace<BR>HF<P><BR>

HumbleFish:<P>{{{{{{{{hug}}}}}}}))<P>No, you did not get me upset. I understand where you are coming from and actually expected that I might get challenged on that one. I will definately respond but unfortunately I'm at work right now and cannot take much time.<P>So, when I get home tonight, after work, after I take my mom to the dentist, pick my son up from camp, go grocery shopping and get dinner (with SeenTheLight's help) I'll get back. What a day!! I hate days like this!!<P>In the mean time, I am not deminishing your pain. I know you are hurting. I can empathize with our pain as I too have lost love before. <P>Promise I'll be back.<P>again {{{{{{hug}}}}}}<P>Z<BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

By the way this post is written it sounds like HF has been drinking again, or uses misspelled words to make us believe that it is the alcohol talking and not really her. If you have been drinking yet again, I think it is obvious that drinking does nothing but bring out a very angry and ugly side of you and you need to check yourself on that. No one can help you until you are ready to help yourself. And the first thing that needs to be done is to stop worrying about someone elses H and worry about yourself and your drinking. Sorry to be so blunt, but come on now.

Zorweb <P>((((Hugs back at you))))))<P>You are a funny one - Let me tell you about my day. Before I wrote this I had my day at work - I had a big presentation at work and It took a lot of energy but It went fine (I have no kids to pick up though - ”Ps- MM has no kids either, just a note” ) but I had a talk with my mom when I came home since was worried about her (she and my step-dad still have fights and last time I called my mom (Sunday ) - My stepdad demolished their phone (as I listened on the other end anthil it went dead) because he was drunk and not in the mood for my mom to talk to anyone on the phone - the other day. I couldn’t reach her until the next day. (this is kind of usual at my home - I have gotten used to it - I have to say though they have calmed down the last years. Now way and behold I too had too buy groceries to day believe it or not BUT - I also had to pay my bills (they have be in by the last of the month here) . BUT then again I guess that is a ”fantasy-life”. Or did you think that I would just DROP everything because I fell inlove? and did you think that he ”MM” ”dropped everything because of me???. THAT is WHAT UPSETS ME about all the fantasy/real life/Fog /thinking! <P>Don’t get me wrong here - I’m not whining or complaining - Not at all!!!! - - this is just my life and I am used to it. Now you might perhaps doubted me but I was really enjoying the warm winds that came today and I sat in my bikini at the balcony after work reading a good book for an hour before I called my mom - I’m not depressed and I don’t feel sorry for myself! - this is life! - I miss MM so I can dye but I keep occopying me with things - I just get a aggravated when people that I do not know tell me that I all of a sudden am living in a fantasy or that I’m surround by a mysterious fog that leaves me ”down-handed” and that I’m suddenly not dealing with reality. Perhaps I have misunderstood the whole ”Fantasy” that you are talking about.<P>MM and I shared it all - the good and the bad - I will not go into his problems or his life - that is not for me to tell (It might be for him but since he is not here....) <P>But to say that we wore not intouch with reality is well I will say it simply - WRONG! ) .....but I guess that is something that nobody here want’s to hear about . But that is OK!<P>In the end me and MM can not be together - at least not now under these circumstances and I’m accepting that. But not because it was a ”Fantasy or s Fog” but because it was not our time!<P>Z - I’m of to bed - perhaps a bit early for me but I’m tired and my brain is working overtitme *S* - By the way what is the time difference between us? - Right now it’s 23:00 (Hmmmm---that is 11:00 PM - I that right - that is eveningtime (PM? - AM is ”after Midnight??? - Gee I never can learn those AM/PM things <P>Anyways - Perhaps we can chat tomorrow - Have a great day <P>Peace and strength<BR>HF<P><BR>Ps. Zorweb do not consider yourself challanged - consider youself interessting to talk to <BR>

Hi trying2_4give<P>No, I have not been drinking. Sorry you took my post so negatively. I was somehow moved by the postes that I read today - so I just wrote from the bottom of my heart and didn’t mind to spellcheck - sorry for that. Was it difficult to understand what I wanted to say - was my misspelling so bad? <P>Thank you though for your concern but sometimes I’m a bit blunt and perhaps too honest and not very diplomatic. I just say it as I feel it - What in my post offended you? - just wondering?<P>Peace<BR>HF<BR>

Z,<P> If you can answer HFs message without blowing a cork I will bow down to you. <P> She is right I suppose, pain is pain. Everything else I read did sound like booze talking. <P> HF,<P> Never mind....your message was not directed to me.

<B><BR>(PM? - AM is ”after Midnight??? - Gee I never can learn those AM/PM things<BR></B><P>A.M. : (Latin: before midday) the time interval from midnight to midday/noon. "Morning"<P>P.M. : (Latin: post meridiem) the time interval from midday/noon to midnight. "Evening"<P>------------------<BR>Prayers, Hugs, and Strength from both of us. Things do and can get better. Keep hoping, learning, and growing. Take care of yourself.<P>[H] and Knewjie

HF OHHHHHHHH you Europeans..LOL..(now that is a joke....) I hope you take it as such.<P>I can only tell you that since my husband has given me a second chance we have returned to intimacy recently. DDay was June 2000. <P>It came so nicely and I cant explain it for I have never felt it before not even with my married man. I even told him I think I didnt love you because I never felt like this. He says similar and this intimacy state is great.<P>I know this withdrawel is hard and I know you loved this man. But I just have to say that these feeling you have for him will come again with another man if you commit yourself to that as your goal in life. To be a good woman, an honorable woman, a great girlfriend, wife, mother..whatever the progression...it will come to you someday and you will never look back.<P>You meet a mans needs, he will in return meet yours, get rid of pride early on, do not settle for an average relationship, dont sell yourself short....GO FOR THE BEST, it is out there and will come to you with determination on your own part.<P>I did not know where I would be today last June. In fact I didnt expect to be where I am now. Its almost or could be a miracle. Once I let go of my selfish pride as an adult it was like my life returned to me. The rewards have been huge.<P>Good Luck to you.

HF, YOU aer one of the ones in here i just do not get, My compassion as a person makesme want ot help you, but your need to be the poster child for OP in general frankly PISSES me off. NO lets talk PAIN ok, sit back this might take me a bit,<BR>OK i wrote a ton of stuff and decided this would be better.<BR>HF you find a man , fall in love, stand before GOD and your family and friends and country, VOW to love cherish honor and respect, To cleave only on to that person. Then let that person, who you give your heart to, tell you that he screwed another person and possible loves them more than you and well you will get over it ( not exactly how my H told me of his A) Then come talk to me about pain. You are a " girlfriend" there isno other way to say it. You are not the wife or spouse or any of that. You are not his LEGAL mate or the one people call MRS. SO it is a girlfriend thing. You will not convince me otherwise. If it was anything else he would be moving heaven and earth to be with you and he is not. LOOK i cannot and will not ever sympathize for your PAIN you put YOURSELF there, it was YOUR choice, I am sure you knew he was married soon after meeting him. SO deal with your withdrawal, get through it, deal with that pain. And hey when i can sleep without seeing ANOTHER WOMAN screwing my husband i will be here to support you ok.<BR>Maine

Ok, although HF's post was a little jumbled with the misspellings her message is pretty clear and I for one happen to agree with her. NO ONE can say that any other person's pain is LESS because they are not married. That is like saying you are LESS of a person because you are not married and your pain is insignificant if you are not pining over someone who is legally yours. Some people who know each other for only MONTHS get married and within a year there is infidelity. Others are together for YEARS without exchanging vows for any number of reasons and there is infidelity. Are you saying that the couple who knew each other for mere MONTHS should feel more pain than someone who has loved another for YEARS JUST because they are legally married?!?! Some people are just very PASSIONATE people and when they love--no matter how long or how "legal"-- they love very deeply, and when they hurt, they hurt equally as deeply. maybe you feel like you hurt more when you are married and have taken a vow before God and family because you are more EMBARRASSED about what others will think if they knew of the infidelity in your marriage. When a passionate person is hurting...married or not...it is of very little concern what others think of the situation, only that your heart is breaking and you want to just disappear to make the pain go away.<P>BUT, nevertheless, no one should be labled as a drunk simply because their opinion does not agree with yours. Everyone should be entitled to their opinion and should be allowed to voice their opinion.

HF, I know you're feeling pain but all I can say is if you think you're in pain now just wait until you get hurt by your spouse (I hope it never happens to you)...you will only then understand that what you're feeling now is child's play compared to the pain caused by a wayward spouse.

Her pain her feelings whatever the point is this is MARRIAGEBUILDERS! The site is not here to support single OP in their misery; there are places for them to go and receive support. <BR>

The length and intensity of love. Hm..... Grows with time. For those who are here for only a short while. Babies who die before they are born, only a few will mourn them since most never got to know them. Children whose lives are gone before they have a chance to grow up, their families mourn them but the rest of the world never really had a chance to know them as adults. <P>My point here is that the longer a relationship grows the more there is to that relationship. 10 month A vs a 10 year marriage does not compare. I will give you my personal example. OW and H tried very hard to replace the 10 years of history (good and bad) in 10 months. No way. The hurt and pain, the love and laughter was there all of us. Can you laugh fast? Can you put all the laughter of 10 years of happy memories into 10 months (if you can you will be exhausted) Can you love quickly? Can you put the 10 years of love into 10 months (if you can you will be exhausted and plain ol worn out). <P>No you can not push these things. Real love needs time to grow. Laughter and love, sadness and tears, happiness and joy along with the fears require time. They demand it. You can not force it quickly. <P>You can have friends. They can come and go. They vary in degrees of friendship and for the most part we can take or leave them and still heal. Do that to a family member you love or lost and the scar stays. That is the comparison between being married and not being married. If you have never had a child, I can describe it to you but your own personal experience will be unique like no one else. Yet women have children every day. <P>You HF, say you have not been married. But we have been single. Some longer than others. Been there done that. We know the difference because we have experienced something we can describe but you will never really understand until you experience it yourself. <P>Now many of us here have had that experience of being married marred with the pain of the A. Never how we intended it to be. May your marriage never be scarred as ours. Please work on finding a true life long mate, one that can and will make you happy and in return give to him what you selfishly gave to a MM and stole from his family. <BR>L.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited June 26, 2001).]

and the MARRIAGEBUILDERS site says all are wlcome as long as they abide by the rules...there is no prerquisite that you be married. OR would you prefer the OP that come to this site for help in getting out of an affair go to sites like gloryb where instead they get the support that the affair is OK and to keep on keepin' on. Would you prefer they go to the other sites to learn all the tricks of how to fool the BS and STILL sneak around and see the MM or MW? This site IS for building marriages and anytime an OP comes here for help in getting out of an affair YOU should feel glad that SOMEONE'S marriage SOMEWHERE is getting a second chance.

HF,<P>I don't think that the fog means that you dont live a real life. What it refers to is what happens during an affair to a person that would not otherwise committ such a selfish act. For example, a married man who has children and an extended family who may be a pillar of the community. He meets a woman, they "fall in love" and he forsakes everything that he has held dear to him for these stolen moments with someone that does not belong to him. The relationship is based on lies and deceit. It feels like the most wonderful thing. But in reality, he could have fallen in love with any number of women who met his needs. That is the fog. Not your whole life, not your being, not your routines. There is no denying the feelings. They are really being felt. Its the premise of the relationship and the things that are sacrificed for it. Once out of the "fog" most people regret what they have done and often wonder how they ended up in that position to start with. That is what I have gathered from the many ws that post here.

humblefish,<P>I do get you. And I'm impressed by your being here and listening. In a way, we all get confused (BS and WS) by the fact that we are usually arguing in two arenas at the same time. They interconnect, but they are different. There is the arena of the emotions and the arena of integrity (or morality, if you prefer).<P>In the moral arena there is a huge amount at stake when you are talking about an affair. There are often children, the effect of the A can be projected decades into the future. And there is the promises of the people who are married and betrayal.<P>If we were talking about any other area of human life, the equivalent of an affair would be a criminal offense. If you have a child and decide to betray it by not providing for it, you would be put in jail. If you have a child and abuse it emotionally, you could be jailed. If you take out a mortgage and promise to repay and then don't, even for a little while, they'll foreclose on you. A marriage is a legal promise between two people, and it affects families, and even civilizations. If you don't believe that, you don't know much history.<P>So, objectively, from a moral standpoint, an affair is wrong and it hurt many, many people. But emotionally, I imagine, the feelings are often similar for the BS and WS. At least from their own points of view.<P>It's very hard for us BS to have sympathy for WS because of the of all the other things involved. There's the family, there's the promises, and all that.<P>and in the end, the BS is right. They were wronged and there is no excuse for it. Love, true love, just doesn't cut it. They should have loved their promises more, or their children more or (especially) their spouses more.<P>That's where I had a problem with MB at first. Harley et al. seemed to dismiss this in his "therapy" and yet, you could see that was where he was coming from: that marriage was worth saving, that the promises were binding, that spouses should (normally) stay together.<P>But then I realized that MB was working on behavior, and Harley is very pragmatic. There's very little you can do to teach this to someone who is in love with someone they shouldn't be. And even if they understand it, the heart wants what it wants, and it will usually win in an argument with the mind. So what do you do? Try your best to convince the heart. Plan A/Plan B.<P>HF, the fantasy MB speaks about is the fantasy that surrounds the A relationship itself. Not your everyday life. That goes on, but in your heart that is associated with everything else in your life, not with your lover. The lover is associated with no problems, because with him you don't deal with those, you just deal with your relationship and that is all. you don't have to deal with his wife. You don't have to deal with his kids (if he has them). If you actually lived with him as his wife, that would be reality. See what I getting at?<P>Well, anyway, I do commend you for continuing to be here. I'd give my right arm if you were my WS. Just knowing that you were listening and trying would be the greatest encouragement to me. I don't mind you blowing off steam. You do get to me sometimes, but that goes away when I remember that you do seem to be trying. I think that maybe the fact that you still care for this guy might be the price you will have to pay for your "mistake." But paying off a debt can be a good thing. In the end, it can set you free.<P>Ishmael

Hi Humblefish, I've had somewhat of a bad day myself, so I won't write too much - just wanted to give you a hug and say 'Keep swimming'.<P>(((((((((Humblefish)))))))))<P>Paint.

humblefish,<P>I do get you. And I'm impressed by your being here and listening. In a way, we all get confused (BS and WS) by the fact that we are usually arguing in two arenas at the same time. They interconnect, but they are different. There is the arena of the emotions and the arena of integrity (or morality, if you prefer).<P>In the moral arena there is a huge amount at stake when you are talking about an affair. There are often children, the effect of the A can be projected decades into the future. And there is the promises of the people who are married and betrayal.<P>If we were talking about any other area of human life, the equivalent of an affair would be a criminal offense. If you have a child and decide to betray it by not providing for it, you would be put in jail. If you have a child and abuse it emotionally, you could be jailed. If you take out a mortgage and promise to repay and then don't, even for a little while, they'll foreclose on you. A marriage is a legal promise between two people, and it affects families, and even civilizations. If you don't believe that, you don't know much history.<P>So, objectively, from a moral standpoint, an affair is wrong and it hurt many, many people. But emotionally, I imagine, the feelings are often similar for the BS and WS. At least from their own points of view.<P>It's very hard for us BS to have sympathy for WS because of the of all the other things involved. There's the family, there's the promises, and all that.<P>and in the end, the BS is right. They were wronged and there is no excuse for it. Love, true love, just doesn't cut it. They should have loved their promises more, or their children more or (especially) their spouses more.<P>That's where I had a problem with MB at first. Harley et al. seemed to dismiss this in his "therapy" and yet, you could see that was where he was coming from: that marriage was worth saving, that the promises were binding, that spouses should (normally) stay together.<P>But then I realized that MB was working on behavior, and Harley is very pragmatic. There's very little you can do to teach this to someone who is in love with someone they shouldn't be. And even if they understand it, the heart wants what it wants, and it will usually win in an argument with the mind. So what do you do? Try your best to convince the heart. Plan A/Plan B.<P>HF, the fantasy MB speaks about is the fantasy that surrounds the A relationship itself. Not your everyday life. That goes on, but in your heart that is associated with everything else in your life, not with your lover. The lover is associated with no problems, because with him you don't deal with those, you just deal with your relationship and that is all. you don't have to deal with his wife. You don't have to deal with his kids (if he has them). If you actually lived with him as his wife, that would be reality. See what I getting at?<P>Well, anyway, I do commend you for continuing to be here. I'd give my right arm if you were my WS. Just knowing that you were listening and trying would be the greatest encouragement to me. I don't mind you blowing off steam. You do get to me sometimes, but that goes away when I remember that you do seem to be trying. I think that maybe the fact that you still care for this guy might be the price you will have to pay for your "mistake." But paying off a debt can be a good thing. In the end, it can set you free.<P>Ishmael

HF.<P>I, too. love a married man. I too will have to experience withdrawal and the pain of a love I don't want to lose. Read my poems in "Just thoughts." I don't want to compare pain, but the total devastation I am feeling right now, be cause my H, my married man, is having an affair with an OW who is also married...is also total and complete. <P>I may have to suffer the indignity of finding a lawyer and paying to end a relationship I don't want to end. I will never be able to have 'no contact' with him because we have three children together. I will have to see him the rest of my life, I know the pain will lessen, but I wonder will I still feel an ache in the scar in my heart whenever I see him?<P>I know what I have done. I know who I am. But nothing I have done in life (karmic law aside ), has been deserving of this... (again...see poetry). I must have been really terrible in a past life.<P>Your pain is real. My pain is real. And, I am sorry that we humans cannot take care of each other better than this. It truly sucks rocks.<P>Cali<BR>

HF, et al.:<P>Whew. what a thread!<P>Pain is pain, and as such, it is relativistic. No one can compare person A's pain to person B's pain (the apples and oranges analogy).<P>HOWEVER ... there is a huge difference to self-inflicted pain and to pain that is inflicted upon you. In this case, HF, you and the WS inflicted pain on an unsuspecting and undeserving victim to gratify your (you and the MM) self-indulgent behavior.<P>That, dear, is the bottom line. And before you accuse me of being up on my soapbox, realize that I have been the BS (twice), and the WS. Now, I can compare MY different pains: the pain inflicted by my two ex's was bad, yes; but in comparison, the pain I inflicted is far worse (not only to Z) ... because, now that I am out of the fog, I have to live with the realization that I have hurt deeply the one I love most. And, boy, does it hurt. But we are working through it, thanks to Dr. Harley's books and everyone here on MB.<P>So is your pain worse than my pain; is my pain worse than your pain?<P>That is not the question. Who did the inflicting? In both our cases, HF, we inflicted the pain not only on another, but on ourselves. So learn to live with it.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL<P>