I am a WS wife (2 month affair ... recovered and tear up when I call myself a WS, can't believe it was ME!) I feel that if my H had an affair I don't know how I would handle it.<P>I feel that I am less of a person than my H because he is treating me with love and respect (albiet, it hasn't been all roses the whole time, don't get me wrong, it is HARD) and is helping ME through this whole process. He read a bit about the withdrawal process on MB(which I haven't had too hard a time with once the FOG lifted, I realized this OM is an A**!!) But still, that doesn't make it any easier to forgive myself, so here is my quesion:<P>I am wondering if anyone else notices that all of the W of WS on here are really devastated and demolished, while the H of WS are not as harsh, they are more insightful, ready to take some blame, question, but not judge their W? Might sound strange, but what is it about us, women, who are suuposedly the softer, more *maybe* insightful of the species, why do we attack more when it is THEM who does it, why are the H more forgiving?? <P>I almost am afraid to post this, for fear of upsetting people, but I can't do much more than humblefish in that area (kidding!!)<P>Just wondering ... this is a remarkable site, helps me on a DAILY basis rebuild the love in my marriage and I just wonder ... is this all in my head, or is there really a distinction between M and W with affairs and how they handle them, or are those that stand by their spouse no matter which sex, just standing by their best friend in any case and helping them through an amazingly difficult situatoin? appreciate your responses. Hope my question came across clearly enough.

ok, so it is me who posted this, even tried to delete it, shows how much I actually post! I am just a guilt-ridden person and want to find out if it is just me who hates themselves SO much for what they did and kind of am in AWE of my H desire to fix things with me ... and put up with me. I just have a great relationship with him and can't believe I ever jeopardized that and wanted some feedback from you all. Hope I don't offend!!<P>Can you tell I have a little bit of an esteem problem now too? :-)

Dear Struggling,<P>I am W of WH. You can search my posts (InShockinCali and StrongerInCali), I think you will find that I have more than forgiving and that I have taken responsibility for the part that I have played in our marriage the helped to create an atmosphere which led to an affair.<P>On the other hand, my H heaps the blame onto me and all he is 'sorry' for is 'ruining' my life. He has shown no remorse and only anger at me.<P><BR>Cali

sorry SIC, I will look up your posts. Mine was a SELF - Doubting post ... that i even deserve my H more than anything else post. I apologize if I have bothered anyone, hopefully this floats to the bottom of the board. I just wondered if anyone else felt so forgiven by the spouses, when I/we haven't forgiven ourselves and what does that mean. <P>didn't mean to offend if i did.

struggling27<P>I showed your post to my husband, SeenTheLight (xWS). He says it’s because men don’t have claws. Lol Don’t worry I beamed him for that. <P>I know you apologized for your post but you shouldn’t because I am sure that on some level you meant what you said. It’s important that we can all put out the tough topics here and discuss them.<P>There are on this website many, many women BS’s who are just as insightful and not harsh as you perceive the men to be. I could go down a list off the top of my head, Cali, Paintbox, Mainemade, Calla30 and the list goes on and on. I know I’ve left many out of this list. I also believe that I am one of the women who is not harsh and has been very forgiving and anything but harsh of my husband for his affairs. I have also read some postings from men on this forum that are very harsh .. especially in the Emotional Needs forum.<P>So I wonder why you get this impression. Here is my theory….<P>First of all I believe that there are more women on this forum then there are men. I believe that is to be expected since women tend to seek out support more then men do. <P>Typically when men have a problem they withdraw into themselves and work it out on their own. Perhaps by the time they come here they have worked through most of the issues.<P>Typically when women have a problem they talk about until they are blue in the face. It’s almost like we have to hear ourselves talk in order to see the problem, analysis it and solve it. So perhaps we are seeing more of the inner workings of this process in the women’s posts.<P>And the last part of my theory is based on some statistics I read about 10 years ago. They said that 98% of the marriages in which the husband cheats remain intact. The woman usually “stands by her man”. While only 2% of the marriages in which the wife cheats remain intact. I believe that today the spread between the 98% and the 2% would be closer. But I do believe that even today men are less likely to “stand by their women.”<P>Why do I believe this? <P>Women are socialized to almost expect their husbands to cheat. I’ve sure we’ve all heard it: men are just like that; they all do it; monogamy is hard for men, men are driven to sow their seed, yada yada yada. In my previous marriage I actually had people tell me that I just had learn to live with my spouses infidelities because it was his right as a man. <P>Men on the other hand are socialized to take a much harder line on their wife’s infidelities. Has anyone ever heard of a man being advised that he just has to learn to live with their wife’s infidelities because it is their wife’s right to mess around? Don’t think so. <P>So my theory is that since fewer men “stand by their woman”, the male BS’s we see here are the exceptional ones: these may be the ones who are the least harsh, the ones who are more insightful, the ones who are more loving.<P>It would be interesting to see the demographics of this site to see how many men/women and WS/BS/OP combinations there are. And then to see which are the harsher and which are the more insightful. But that last judgment would be subjective so don’ t know how useful it would be.<P>If you feel that some of the people here are being harsh. Then perhaps you can help them find their way to a better place by giving them your insightful input.<P><BR>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Really, I was kidding about the claws. <smile><P>Actually, z and I have discussed the above before, and I concur.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

hello, <BR>I believe I am the youngest male "BS" on this board at the tender age of 23, and I think I have a little insight to the male perspective... or at least mine...<P>I Love my wife with all my heart and am willing to work out anything with her if she would only give me a try but I know that my friends are very unforgiving it seems almost like males in general sometimes pose a double standard to their spouses.. it seems like well I can do it but you had better be there when I get back.. The main point though is that we all need to try a little harder to make our marriages work!!! both male and female alike I really think there should some formal schooling on marriage and how to prepare for it.. because it is uncharted territory!! and if we had only had a little bit of the knowledge we have accumulated here our marriages would not be in jeopardy.<P>I do believe that men who stand by their women during situations like this are uncommon.. I would say that men like myself can trace our beliefs and willingness to stand by their wife and love her comes from how we were raised..<BR>I was raised in a traditional family but I can thank one person for making me the person, the loving and forgiving person I am and that is my MOTHER!! I think guys who's mother plays a big role in their growth over the father <BR>tend to develop more maternal instincts and forgiving and loving instincts than guys raised more by men. not to we are feminine by no means!!! but just more willing to work things out and be there for their wife.. and possibly a little more able to meet EN's than other men??? I'm not sure<BR>this is just a theory..

DNGU:<P>Well, as theories go, it has certain validities. At least in my case: my dad left when I was almost 13 ... but my mom has always been there. So perhaps there is something in that.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Dear Struggling<BR>interesting question<BR>it really is one about forgiveness<BR>popular psychology and the popular press has a lot to do with it too--all those messages about men "not getting it." ....and not doing enough housework, etc<BR>I am H of WS, but she withdrew, not to an affair, but to professional school. She is well practiced, having withdrawn from family conflicts at age 10--hiding in her room to read. This was not withdrawal from abuse, rather withdrawing from family relationships that were less than perfect--normal conflicts<BR>So she had a great deal of trouble standing up to me, to state her needs/wants. So, I ran over her, really, quite unknowingly. To make matters much worse, a therapist said that I was emotionally abusive--yes, that caused a new low, from which we still are struggling to recover.<BR>I am struggling with how poorly boys are socialized--all that macho crap is reinforced...then one on one with a woman--it is so easy to be overbearing without knowing it. <BR>...And I think it is so easy for women to just give up. True give and take is so hard to establish.<BR>I have been really struggling here for a couple of years, it seems, and have found help with MB, divorcebusting.com and smartmarriages.com.<BR>But the keys to the kingdom came to me last month when someone here recommended John Gottman's new book: Relationship Cure. Someone else has the book Relationship Repair. Gottman lays out many concepts really parallel to Harley and Wiener-Davis.<BR>But CENTRAL to all relationships, marriages and otherwise are his concepts of the BID and the three options: turning toward, turning away and turning against.<BR>It is very powerful stuff and was very meaningful to me re various relationships in my extended family--ones that worked and ones that don't. It tells me why women have fewer problems, in general<BR>Do read it. Check his web site--gottman institute.<P>good luck<P>r

Hi Struggling:<P>I believe if you were here long enough you'd discover the answer to your question yourself...but I'll tell you anyway. <P>The reason is that alot of men come here, filled with wrath because their wives have cheated on them....they get an introduction to MB principles and maybe even try them for a while...but alot of them don't have the patience to endure the roller-coaster ride and they just disappear from the board...so the answer is that the majority of the men who remain on the board are the ones who are really trying or who have lived through the experience and come out wiser. <P>The women are more prone to stay with it...and believe me it is a painful process...and the ups and downs take their tole on them. <P>You should thank God everyday that you have one of those forgiving understanding H's. Give him a hug for us because we know how hard this is for him.<P>Faye<P>

I think in some way I asked that because I feel like I deserve to be tortured over this. I didn't really mean that the women are harsh, I mean that I think I WOULD be if it were me... it doesn't make a lot of sense but I am so full of self-hate and self-doubt that I really can't believe my husband can still love me and that we can eventually "act" like this never happened. <P>Thats all. didn't mean to offend anyone and like i said, this board has given me lots of help!! You know how sometimes you wonder things that you should probably just keep to yourself because you don't know how to really communicate your thoughts properly? This was one of those questions, comes down to me just feeling bad about me.

Good morning Struggling:<P>From the betrayed husband point of view, all I can say is that I loved my W with all my heart and soul for almost 20 years. When I think about losing that person I just break down. She has meant so much to me in terms of the support and other things she offered to me. She made me a better person. I want to do whatever I can to renew and improve our marriage. Of course, don't forget the 3 kids. I firmly believe they need a two parent household. Unfortunately, my W is taking a very hard stand and still dealing with withdrawl I think. She says she doesn't want things to be like they were. If you can believe it, my W was the one not talking about us or any problems we might be having before the A. I'm not sure yet that she is willing to make changes towards me or in our relationship. It seems like maybe she is not the typical female WS. Just my $0.02<BR>SG

Thanks for the post SprayerGuy!<P>I really think I am blessed with a guardian angel for a H. It may sound extreme, but this man in only one week said "I will go to Marriage Counseling with you as soon as you are ready" ... when before that he was saying he didn't want to be blamed for my affair. <P>I was going to say this earlier and didn't, don't know how some will take the words, but what finally made me start dealing with this for US (and not just selfishly feeling bad about myself) was when dear H said 2 weeks ago yesterday ... "You have to get past this, you have to realize that you made a MISTAKE ... one that anyone can make, and it is ok, we will get past it" ... I can't tell you what that meant. I didn't think it was a mistake that ANYONE could make, I thought it meant that I was a sick, terrible human being. But it doesn't, it really was a mistake, and NOW I can start healing for both of us and stop being selfish. <P>So, I would support the supportive BS, you guys are awesome. And I thank GOD everyday that I have NOT lost my best friend. Someday we will have a family and to think I almost messed ALL of that up! <BR>Take care!

just re-read my post and wanted to make sure that it is clear that my H didn't want to go to marriage counseling right away (I don't blame him) because he didn't really want to face that it could have not been perfect before this happened. Wanted to clarify that point. I have never ONCE blamed him for ANY of this. I blame myself and OM.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zorweb:<BR><B>struggling27<P>First of all I believe that there are more women on this forum then there are men. I believe that is to be expected since women tend to seek out support more then men do.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think this is the answer - whether or not women seek more support. There are just more female BSs here.<P>Z- only 2% of marriages remain intact if it's the wife who cheats? Tell me you made that up, please!<P>WAT<P>

OK stepping softly,<BR>When my H told me about his A i was so shocked, but i let him get it out. I sat there and listened. AND suddemly all i could see was this man i loved so much, in such pain that i reached out and hugged him. ( no claws at all) HE bagan to BAWL saying OMG OMG how can you touch me after what i have done to you). I have never been anything but SUPPPORTIVE. We are doing so well, because the A was out of lonliness and i understood that. We both had a part it the events tothe A, I am all the love and support he needs. SO in my opinion, iti isnot a M or F thing, it is the individual/<BR>Maine<P>------------------<BR>IN the words of BOB the BUILDER!!" WE can fix it, yes we can!!!"

WAT,<P>I read that in some report in the early 1990's. It stuck with me for some strange reason. Don't know if it's any truer then any other statistical reporting. We all know how those can be manipulated. I wish I had the report today because I'd like to reread and check out their methods.<P>Strange huh?<P>WAT, you are just one of the "good guys".<P>Z

WE WILL BE ONE OF THE 2%!!!!<P>And you are right, maine, it must be the individual, thanks for doing what you did, the same as my H did. I think it says something about your H (as well as me) admitting and being so sorry, visibly, physically, emotionally so sorry ... when WS act with defensive actions, that would be so difficult to handle, I was/AM so remorseful and it sounds like your H was as well.<P>Peace, AMM

struggling27,<BR>I have to agree....one of the things that helped me deal with my w after her pa's was her brokeness. How could I live with myself if I tried to break her even more? That in my opinion would be almost as bad as having the a.

You are so right. My husband has done the same thing. <P>I believe that two things had to happened in order for SeenTheLight and I to start on the road to recovery. The first is that I realized that I had to create a safe environment for him to tell me the entire truth and to show his hurt and vulnerability. The second is that he had to realize that he was not protecting me with the half-truths. The truth is easier to handle, no matter how hurtful, then deceipt. We both had to realize that the other was hurting, that the other would have trust issues and that we needed to reach out to each other and help the other heal. It does indeed take two to make a loving marriage. There is no room for blame and finger pointing. When he was able to show his vulnerability, his hurt, guilt, remorse and sorrow, then I knew I he was still the man I loved and married. His ability to stand up to what he did and to me, as a man, has as much to do with our recovery then my being open and forgiving of his actions. It does indeed take two.<P>(SeenTheLight, I know you are going to see this today. Know that I love you more today then I did the day I married you. XOXO)<P>Z<BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare