Advice and input please:<P>What do you consider "Character"? If someone has bad character does it mean they can't change? <P>The things my H did during and after his A showed absolutely no Character in my eyes. Is this a normal part of an affair? <P>Any response is appreciated.

Another note: Does this show an individuals true character?

"Character defects" is constatntly used in our counseling. And yes, character defects are fixable. Take a look at your spouses OP. Did they validate the character defects? Did they accept your spouse for all that the spouse hid from you? <BR>MY WH chose a woman that was promiscuious, a confessed "good liar", a "party girl" and a manipulator. All things he ademently disliked or avoided in other people and would not tolerate in me. Fact was, he was a closet alcoholic, a great deceiver and manipulator and also quite permiscuous...all things he kept from me.<BR>With me, he pretended to be the man he truly wanted to be. With her, he could be the alcoholic and manipulator and get complimented about how much fun he was as a beer buddy, what great business savvy he had, how well he handled people and what a great lover he was...she even encouraged him to expose and share details from previous lovers and openly shared about her experiences...my husband would have never dated me on such terms, let alone marry me.<BR>So yes, character defects can play significant roles in affairs and with guidance and counseling can be addressed and with determination changed. It takes a tremendous amount of time as for most, theses defects have been lifelong journeys and are difficult not to fall back into...good luck!!!!!I hope you find a counselor that is willing to address these issues of character.

I agree mostly with dun_z, but I think that frequently WSs completely leave their pre-existing character and truly become the "evil twin." Keep in mind that I'm not a pshchologist - just an attentive observer.<P>The stories on this site make me conclude that your observation of your WH's behavior is typical and that behavior can be reversed.<P>WAT

[QUOTE]Originally posted by worthatry:<BR>[B]I agree mostly with dun_z, but I think that frequently WSs completely leave their pre-existing character and truly become the "evil twin." >>>><P>That's how I felt. H became someone I had never met before (and didnt' really care for). After the A though his "character" returned. He is now much more empathetic to couples in trouble and always says "That's really sad. Maybe they'll be able to work it out." He was even feeling sorry for Mick Jagger and Jerry Hall lol.

k9love:<BR>I am listening to His Needs/Her Needs on the cassette tape by Dr. Harley. I have read the book but I am on the third run-thru of listening to the tapes in my car. Each time I remember more and more of his theory's as they are reiterated and slowly sink in.<P>Because someone has an affair I do not believe they are of weak character - I am sure some are more easily influenced than others or more susceptible....Dr Harley's notes remind us that ANYONE can become involved into an affair if the conditions are right(or wrong rather). He reiterates that people of the highest moral, and religious convictions are not sheltered or protected (cannot think of words this morning)against this addiction. I am a WS and I dont believe I am of weak character...I made a bad choice.<P>Scuba

Thank you for all of your insight. I've been haunted by the thought that my H is indeed an "awful" person. I was having serious medical problems at the time of his A. <P>Thank you for your responses.

K9love:<P>As an xWS, I would add this: when I was in the midst of the As, my "morals/character" were impacted by my befogged state. Human beings tend to self-justify their actions, even wrong ones (hence "revisionistic" history). WS's become adept at guilt transference and other mechanisms.<P>Of course, once the fog lifts, we are appalled at what we have done (well, at least in my case): my behavior as a WS is not what I believe in value-wise and behavior-wise. (The price to pay, I suppose, by tempting the Fates as a BS ... "How could you do this? I could NEVER do such a thing in a million years! [Gee, Mr. Rip Van Winkle, did a million years really go by in your fog?]<P>What did I learn from this? Only this: no matter how pure our intent, how noble our ideals, how pure our mind and heart, they can erode if the seeds of dischord are planted and allowed to grow and fester. I have been blasted by a few BS's for the following statement, but I reiterate it, for I believe it to be true (if it were not, I would not have been a WS): anyone, under the proper conditions, can become a WS ... do not think yourself immune (there are statistics citing the number of BS's who retaliate with A's of their own).<P>I have been humbled by my discovery: that I am human and capable, despite my ideals and beliefs, of falling prey to the temptations of life. (Actually, it is a rediscovery, as there was a time in my life I learned this lesson in a non-relation sense [military service in combat and what you can endure and do despite your beliefs])<P>God forgives ... in my life, when I have turned and strayed in my personal fogs, His hand has always been there upon my return, His love remained undimmed. For us humans, such an ideal and pure form of love and forgiveness is much more difficult. But there-in lies the method to recovery after an affair: in love to reach out past the pain and to once again rebuild the bonds.<P>Hmmm, just waxing philosophic this am ...<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Character--moral or ethical quality, qualities of honesty, courage, integrity, good repute.<P>As I see it, character is how you live, including your choices. When you have an affair, you are not moral, ethical, honest, courageous, your reputation may suffer.<P>Calling it a bad choice instead of weak character really is just playing with words. Does cheating ever show high moral or strong character? Someone here calls it a bad-brain period. It doesn't make a lot of difference what we term it.<P>I also believe you can recover from a period of low or weak character. You make better decisions, follow a better path. Live a life of character--it's something we can choose to do.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Whatever is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, gracious...think about these things." Phil 4:8

Lor:<P>We choose to live or lives morally and ethically, to maintain character and integrity.<P>However, as humans, we are subject to outside influences that affect our mental state. When in such a state, it is easy to deviate from what is your norm. Have you ever gotten angry and yelled derogatory things at another person? Did you ever swipe candy as a kid? The list goes on. We fall to temptations. The key is that we learn from them and constantly redefine what our boundaries as humans are.<P>The continuance of bad behavior once that behavior is self-realized would then be a matter of choice. It then reflects the character/ethics/morals the person has chosen to fully incorporate.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

CHARACTER: I think that that is the trait my husband has that let him know what he did was wrong, let him tell me and put our marriage and his future on the line. And itis his CHARACTER that is the core of who and what he is. He has never lost that, and it is amazing. THe traits that allowed the A to happen had NOTHING to do with CHARACTER, it had everything to do with BAD mis and NO communtication.<BR>That is my opinion. . Character is something you are born with, the way it plays in your life directly depends on the persons you let and surround your life with. H has so many great things about him, and they are still there, The OW got none of the good stuff that makes him so good , all she got was a physical release,, and hey he can do the same thing with his five fingers. <BR>Maine<P>------------------<BR>IN the words of BOB the BUILDER!!" WE can fix it, yes we can!!!"

k-9 I am so glad you posted this question- I have really enjoyed thinking over the replies.My H was talking TOTALLY out of character during his A- I posted some of his famous heavy fog lines on the fog line post- even though he has returned from the Mothership after 4mo and we are in counseling I still am in shock that he could ever say those things to me. Before the A he was honest, reliable, very responsible, caring etc. I think he had to be abducted by aliens like some people suggest! LOL I do worry though that it might happen again in the future .lifeismessy

I must agree with SeenTheLight. While I was always a person who loathed people who had A. I am now one myself. I believe that anybody can do just about anything when they are low enough. I know that if I had seen good things about myself and if I hadn't had a heavy heart for so many years that I would have said f**k it and fell overboard. I am a different person now and I am trying with all I have to be better. Maybe everyone even people who don't have A. go through Character changes. We all have our own demons inside and none of us make the right choice all of the time. The only way to survive is to put your trust in God-because even when everyone else thinks your a low life He believes in us!

Excellent advice from each and everyone of you. Thank you, your words of insight really help me to look at things from a different perspective. As it is I am on the inside and looking at it from an internal point of view, hence "How could he do this to us" etc.<P>Rainefall- I feel so strongly in the belief that having an A does not make you a lowlife, I like to think of it in terms of "falling of the edge of the earth for a period of time". Thank you for your responses.<P>LifeisMessy: Amen, my H's A and the disclosure of it felt exactly like something from another planet. It was not him, it couldn't be. I pray now that the next time an alien ship lands he turns tail and runs like H***.<P>Mainemade: You are so right, but the OW in my H life got only the good side of him. He was never under pressure, upset, stressed etc. She could never love him like I have, I love the good right along with the bad. (I like the five finger scenario) I can tell your sense of humor has helped you along this journey.<P>SeentheLight: Thank you, thank you, When you mentioned that once the WS has seen the effects of an A and makes the changes to become a stronger person there IS hope for recovery, there is hope for a relationship that can be even stronger because now you know you've been touched by the absolute worse thing that can happen to your marriage and yet you survive. Before the A I would never have believed that either one of us could look at another and even desire to be intimate, boy have I changed that philosophy, I know for a fact he could, (and did), Does it sound bad to say that now I may be just as vulernable? I'm not looking, but it could happen.<P>Lor- You are so right, an A tears you down to the core and you have to look at everything with a new insight, Yes, you have to make better decisions, not only for yourself but for your marriage.<P>I would guess that not a one of you who responded are counselors, yet I get more from your input than I did from the few counseling sessions I attended. I hate to tell someone something, wait for their input, and then hear, "And what do you think of this?" Well obviously, If I knew what to think I wouldn't be spending a small fortune telling you my problems. <P>Anyone else had the same problem with the "counseling session".<P>Thanks again.

We are on marriage counselor #3. Fortunately, my personal psychiatrist was aperfect fit. We have discovered the hard way that: 1. Some marriage counselors, even Chritian ones, are not marriage focused, 2. The WS needs to be 100% honest w/ him/herself and the counselor before entering therapy. (The guilty wayward spouse can have a tendency to say what they want to be true not what is in fact truth. Only to allow the counselor and BS to work and heal on misconceptions and false efforts.) and 3. When character defects and other weaknesses are present in the WS, some therapist can paint them into a corner or box and not let them out...he/she comes away feeling like a punching bag and not counseled or aided in resolution and understanding.<BR>(It is terribly difficult as a WS to admit too, and see when this is happening. At first I loved this counselor, she was in essence putting me and my feelings on a validated pediatal and making my WH out to be a monster. At two weeks past DDay this is what I wanted. Now 10 months out and with a wonderful, neutral, marriage focused counselor, I can see that we would have been divorced by now had we stayed with her.)<BR>Counselors, like all of us, are human and come from different schools of thought and practice. I believe, from my personal experiences that they need to be "tried on" until you find a perfect fit. <BR>I am sorry that your experiences have been so negative and unfulfilling with your therapist.

I myself have been to 4 counselors. We have been to two. My H. won't even go. Before the A. he told the counselor that I was the one with all the problems. After the A. the counselor did not even give us any advice really when we were together other than we were destroying each other. After that he talked about his life!! Tell me how to reach my H. to help him cope with the A. somedays are ok, but every other day he takes off and doesn't come home.

K9love:<P>I am glad my meager words offered some hope. I just wanted to ease your mind on one point: while anyone is capable of having an A, given the right circumstances, incorporating and living the MB philosophies lessens the chance dramatically. (I won't delude myself into saying it negates the possibility of an A, tempting the Fates is what got me into trouble as a BS.)<P>Take each new day as a canvas on which you and your H can paint a new landscape. Share, enjoy and expand. Another good resource that zorweb and I stumbled on was 1001 Ways to be Romantic by Gregory Godek. Ka-ching go the love units.<P>Prayers for your continued recovery,<BR>Godspeed,<BR>STL