Is it possible for someone to be in a EA and not know it?<BR>Can a person see OM/OW at work everyday, call them on cellphones and leave/receive voicemails behind their spouses back for 9 months and not realize what they're doing? Can they excuse secretly meeting this person as "just being friends"? Can a person do these things for so long and not see it as an A and a threat to their marriage, even if nothing physical happened (and I'm not sure about that)? My W has been so adamant about denying EA that I wonder if she knows she's having one. The answers are obvious to me, but I'm just looking for opinions.<P>sad dad

its called being in the fog....... my H was in an A for 3 months and the fog lasted about 9 months.......... it can and does happen .. the phrase just friends is what they WANT to believe it is or at least what they want US to believe it is but the fact reamins that FOG lingers<BR>

They know darn well that it is not "right"....it is just all too common to pretend "just friends" if no one "knows" for sure. But people always know.

LuvOnTheRox,<P>I don't know your story. Was your H's affair EA or PA? What happened when he came out of the fog? Did he ever push for D? Are you in recovery? Sorry for all the questions.<P>sad dad<p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited August 13, 2001).]

Just movin' up, looking for more opinions.

sad dad,<P>I think the problem is that there is a big grey area between "just friends" and EA. It's one that gets slowly crossed. Your W is very resistant to having her relationship labelled an AFFAIR, when at one point it probably was a "friends" thing. My W is also very resistant to the A word. <P>Maybe you should stick to the "inappropriateness" of her relationship and the specific things she is doing that are harmful to your marriage. It's hard for us (BS) to know what is really going on between them. Sometimes we overhear things, or they leave a paper trail. Usually the only clues are the time (spent with OP) and secrecy - which we ignore for a long time.<P>I asked a question about this a while ago (<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/011340.html" TARGET=_blank> Friends" or EA? Where's the line? </A>) You might find it helpful when talking to W about the difference between "friendship" and EA (or what's "not appropriate").<P>There is also a good link in this post to another discussion of EAs.<P>--Jeffers

My H had an EA for well over a year now. In the beginning it was "just friends" but since late last fall it started moving towards EA. They did a lot of things together that did not include me. Or anytime H and I did anything, he invited her. We once had a party at our house-he got drinks for HER but never brought mine, she followed him all over like a puppy (other friends saw this too), and when he went to dining room to play poker, she went too.<P>They flirted outrageously with each other-whether or not I was there. She borrowed his Mustang several times and pouted about giving it back. She took it for emissions testing for him, took it to get new tires on, washed & waxed it when she borrowed it. His answer when I complained about all of the above "She likes to do all of this." My answer, "Of course she does" she likes being is "girlfriend" Plus, I'm sure he likes having a hot blonde sitting in the passenger seat of his Mustang too.<P>Being friends is one thing, having an EA is another. Friends should be friends with both people-not necessarily "best friends" but they should acknowledge the spouse and give the spouse a certain amount of respect. It's when friendship starts to be only one-sided that it can turn into an A.<P>... my 2 cents

Yes, as long as nothing physical happens, it is quite possible for them to be in an EA and truly believe they are just friends. Sometimes it is hard to see/believe that a "friendship" can be getting too close, too involved & is threatening the marriage. <P>Kathi<BR>

He is not just friend. A friend (W) doesn't tell another friend (OM) she is in love with him. A friend (W) doesn't check her voicemail over a hundred times in 2 months to find out if her friend (OM) left messages. A friend (W) doesn't call her cellphone company to have the itemized billing excluded when her husband discovers she has been talking to her friend (OM) daily. I could go on and on, but you get my point.<P>sad dad

I can help with this from the ws side. I met the ow on-line at a religious debate site. We "noticed" each other in a purely innocent friendly way (we are both decent, ethical, nice people...really). I liked how she presented herself in arguments and such, and vice versa. We interacted in "public" on the forum for a while, then (for the usual reasons) agreed to email each other. It was fun, she was really into the subject matter, and liked debateing, I had a friend, and so did she. Our spouses knew about this activity, there was no secrecy, and they were uninterested in it, or us.....so........<P>Eventually we started exchanging lit bits of personal info about our lives, including our marriages. Had not the slightest idea this was anything wrong, but of course the affair had allready started, we spent much of our free time together, and discussed deep feelings, etc. etc. At some point we "opened" up and admitted to each other our marriages were empty shells, no emptional content for a long time, this was the commiseration phase, being "there" for each other, and noting how we enjoyed each others company. <P>Email had lost its usefullness, and we had progressed to messageing, for hours every night. Still felt like friendship, but the first inklings had begun to stir, we were minimizing screens, and hiding the extent of our activity....cause our "spouses" wouldn't understand, and might interfere with the friendship (being the "controllers" they are). And we started talking about how "good" of friends could we be, and started fooling around with very mild innuendo. At this point had been in contact about 4-5 months. We were friends, and liked each other, but clearly other feelings were starting to rise. But I don't think either of us felt like we were misbehaveing at this point.<P>One night I finally told her (after several weeks of stuff about liking each other, and saying silly affectionate stuff when signing off for night), I love you. I expected to get cyber-slapped, told no no no, can't go there. Instead she said "you do?".... I said yes, had denied it for awhile, but the feelings were unmistakeable, and did not want to lie or conceal them from her....so she could run away........instead she said I love you too. I guess at that point we sorta knew we had a problem. I was confused, I didn't know how I could feel like this, what was happening, I had led a 23 year married existence with nary a thought about op. I knew I was unhappy, I thought my wife didn't love me (she had suggested divorce many times), my issue was my Christian vows. But even now, (having no knowledge of how A work, sort of naive I guess), we talked about how friends could love each other, we knew no one was divorcing anyone, was simply not an option for Christians. So we accepted the notion of being very good friends, and knowing our boundaries and just being a safe place for each other, one who understood us. We never considered this an A, our spouses didn't care about us anyways, or understood us, but we were aware they wouldn't like or allow this. And we decided it was our life too, and we deserved to have a friend.<P>Not too long after that we went to telephones (we live 2000 miles apart), and spent many happy hours talking, or course we concealed this completely (so the usual secrecy and such started). Believe it or not we still felt this was ok, not an A. But the intimacy continued to increase, each time it did we discussed the "new" boundaries, and justified the behaviour, we weren't trying to hurt anyone. Finally after a month or two of this we had discussions about feeling uncomfortable, about the emotional and psychological connections that were forming, that we were in effect, at every level, making marital type bonds with each other, and turning away from our spouses. I guess at this point we "knew" something was amiss, but essentially we just ignored it, didn't think about it, focused on healing each other from years of neglect, and rationalized our behaviour. Guess you could say we still felt we were just friends, very good friends, special friends....but knew we were violating some marital exclusivity issues.<P>We had not actually exchanged pictures yet, and had fantasized about meeting each other, and a life together (in the abstract, like if our spouses left us, or died, or something), but an opportunity arose to meet, and although we had trepidation about it, we followed through. The ea turned pa within seconds, I was surprised, but it felt very comfortable, an ea can prepare you for this (I know now in hindsight), we were able to meet several times over a week period. This was 2/01. I was kinda in shock after the first time, the ow asked me what was wrong, I told her didn't know, was just too much emotion, but I think I did know, I knew I had just divorced my wife. And the next time I saw her (a few days later), I told her I would agree to a divorce. This had nothing to do with ow, who althouh also distressed saw no way she could leave her marriage, said it was psychologically impossible, she would just have to suffer in it, and live without me....no it was about me, I couldn't remain married to w under these circumstances. I had no intention of telling her, she declined the divorce, and wanted to work on stuff, then she found out shortly thereafter I had some kind of involvement, and everything blew up. I denied the pa for 4 more months, but have started telling her stuff recently, and have stopped (mutually with ow) the A, realizing it must end, and reconcilliation be attempted as the proper way to regain integrity. <P>W still refers to me actions as you went out and had an A. That angers me cause is wrong, and implies a lack of (or interest in) understanding about me, but she is trying I guess, and needs time too. Was indeed a friendship gone wrong, or maybe was an A from day 1 cause there is some mysterious chemistry thingy that is real and we do recognize it on a primal level with another, I don't know. Radical honesty requires me to tell my wife I still love her, and may always love her, even though ow gave me a little grief at the end, and got kinda cold and distant...but who knows what is in my mind, I sure don't, hope that helps some.<BR>

btw a friendship is an ea whenever one party wants sexual contact with the other, or wants to be married to them.

snl,<P>Thanks for your reply. It's good to know from a WS's perspective, that whatever a she may call it, she know's what it is, even if she won't admit it to me or anyone else. I find it hard to believe that a person can have a relationship like this with a member of the opposite sex and not see it for what it is. She's been so adament that he is just a friend, I wondered if she really knew it was more than that. If it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck....<P>sad dad

If an EA consists of wanting sexual contact or marriage by one of the parties-how would I know? <P>My H swears he's not "interested in" OW except as friend and in the past has told me that he thinks that if they were married it would never work because they are both too similar (i.e., competitive).<P>My only guess is that OW wants sexual relations/marriage with my H and that's why she storms away from me whenever I visited my H at vball. I have no way of finding out-unless I ask her. Which I have thought about doing-who knows if she'd tell me the truth.

deepblue...your H is lieing. There are a million reasons to deny it is an EA, his was #6. Take strong, and immediate actions, if not PA already, will soon be. Remember, ws are sincere, motivated, consummate liars.......I never lied about anything to my wife, but I looked her straight in the eye and lied about all facets of the A. Huge lies, immaginative lies. Do not believe a single word your husband says, he has already told you all you need to know through his actions. I cannot stress this enough, and sadly I must say, I doubt he has not had physical contact, it is almost a 100% certainty from what you describe.<P>sad dad....while it is true your wife is in an EA (and can only hope is not PA), it does not good to argue with her, follow the harley guidelines, and let the chips fall where they will. My wife suspected something was amiss several months before A became physical, she is so unhappy now she did not act sooner. The biggest tool we (ws have) is to chastise you bs for not "trusting" us, not "believeing" us....... well you may err, and cause a mini-crisis by confronting us....but this is nothing compared to the price you will pay for not confronting us....ya know? Follow your instincts and the evidence of your eyes and ears, rarely will you be wrong.<P>

snl,<P>Just want to clarify one thing. I have only brought up OM or A once since I confronted my W 3-1/2 months ago. She has brought it up a few times, but was lying/denying so I tried to steer the discussions in another direction. <P>Two weeks ago she asked me why I thought things would ever change between us and I said I don't think they will as long as she is still in contact with OM. She said she's not, but I know she is. We got into it a little bit about him, but I decided I'm not going to play that silly lying/denying game. I doubt she's going to admit anything until she's ready to re-commit to our marriage, if ever. We're nowhere near that now, so I don't expect an admission. Besides, it doesn't change what we both know.<P>sad dad

sad dad- Just to let you know that there is someone here that is going through the same pain that you are experiencing. My wife is having an EA and probably an earlier PA with OM. She gets pages from him throughout the day and then she returns his calls. This has been going on about 3-4 months since I found out. As everyone here has indicated, WS is a very good liar and of course denies the A. I don't bring the subject up very often but there are times when I just want to explode(LB!)We had a talk over the weekend and she is putting the guilt trip on me about my possible leaving. We have two daughters and she says that we should try to be as normal around them as we can. I think she may be trying to end it somehow because she told me that I was backing her into a corner and i was blowing it. I try not to bring it up. I don't want to leave because I love her and she really is not herself(fog like). But I don't know what to do. I know we should stay together for the kids. We don't really fuss or fight. in fact we get along pretty good with the exception of the intimacy both sexual and not. My wife does not want to go to counseling because she says we don't have the money and it won't work anyway. I don't know whether this is the A talking or not. Back to the original quaestion yes my wife probably knows she is involved in an affair but doesn't want to admit it because she feels really guilty and doesn't want to admit that she did something wrong. Sad dad I didn't want to ramble but hopefully you will be somewhat supported in that you don't have to suffer alone. Hope to talk to you soon.

S D- my H swore up and down his A with a single coworker started out just being friends- but as coworkers they were seeing each other EVERY day, eating lunch together, carpooling to meetings, going to bars with customers- theyre in sales/marketing- really those are DATES disguised as BUSINESS FUNCTIONS. It's a slippery slope when men and women start spending large chunks of time together, wearing their best clothes, sharing the office gossip, eating lunch together etc. This is an area of hot contention between H and I even though we are in counseling to reconcile now. He doesnt SEE how having dinner with a woman alone or allowing a woman to touch his leg as theyre sitting next to each other is INAPPROPRIATE. He says he 'needs to be liked' and it would be rude to push them away or turn down their invitation to dinner- I am trying to get him to see that affairs dont just HAPPEN- they are created by situations that are allowed to become dangerous due to secrecy and mutual interests.I ask him, would you let a male coworker touch you on the thigh? NO! this makes him think! boundaries- now there's a topic ripe for discussion! lifeismessy

Thanks to everyone for replying. I've done alot of thinking about EA's and whether or not they are really "affairs". The answer is yes. When I was 18, I was dating a girl who was a virgin and very religious. She did not believe in premarital sex (seems inconceivable by today's standards). However, we were very attracted to each other, shared a passion for each other and were very much in love. We talked about marriage quite alot. The fact that we weren't having sex didn't change anything. My emotional connection with her was as strong as I had felt with any woman until I met my W. Although I had many girlfriends in between in which sex was a key component in the realtionship, the enotional connection with them was never quite as intense as it was with her or my W. Sex is not a determining factor of an affair.<P>sad dad

Sad Dad:<P>I think this is DEFINITELY an EA.<P>I don't know how to go about providing links from previous posts to give you instant access. Will someone please tell me how.<P>In the meantime, Sad Dad, please click on the sunglasses above this post to view all my earlier postings and read the one titled "Is She Having An Emotional Affair?". It was my very first post around March 13 or 14.<P>Al;so SKM has some very good posts on this subject as well. They are a "MUST READ".<P><BR>My wife was having an EA and — after all I've read on these boards — I've concluded that she is in serious denial about it.<P>Clyde<P>

ClydeA,<P>There is no doubt in my mind that this is an EA. Never has been. I started this thread because I was curious if it's possible for a WS having an EA to really not know it. I don't mean denying it, but truly not know it. My W is way past the point of "crossing the line", I know it and she does too. If she didn't, there would be know need for her to lie, deceive and conceal her "friendship" with OM from me, her friends and her family. <P>I think people have the misconception that an A has to be physical to be an A, but that's simply not true. As I refered to earlier, you can have intense feelings for another person without it ever becoming sexual. I suspect my W's EA became PA a while ago, but I try not to think about it.<P>sad dad