Okay - due to the surprise in many people's responses to my posting last night I will give some info and pose some questions.<P>H and I in recovery for 1 year - DDAy 14 months ago. We have an active, intense sex life now, we laugh, we joke, we discuss business and work related things well together. We cuddle together. He was out of town for a lengthy period of time, we spoke nightly , we had phone sex at least two times a week! (MY GAWD the phone bills were outrageous) He went to the trouble to surprise me with a visit on Easter weekend, even had the kids shipped out to someone's house overnight so he could surprise me at home with a bottle of wine in hand and a big smile! He tried to plan a romantic getaway for us, but his work contract was extended so we've had to postpone. He sent me roses on my BDAY, When the job ended and he got home, he held me in his arms, looked gently in my eyes and told me he missed me and then we made extraordinary love.<P>Recent update: two weeks ago discovered OW contacted him in March and that they have had occasional, friendly conversations over the last few months. NOT GOOD in my books. I did ask him if they were romantic conversations, he said "no". I asked him if he felt either of them were keeping a door open, he said "no". I asked him if he wanted to pursue a relationship with her, he said "no". AFter a long, calm, open discussion (in bed) he held me close, we squeezed each other tight, made love several times etc etc etc...(We still have some issues to resolve regarding this recent turn of events, but he's out of town for a few days)<P>IN all this time my Husband can't or won't say "I love you". <BR>His actions speak love...I think! I've surmised that he really wants to know that he'll never fall back on his word again before he says it...<P>I know that many WS tell their spouse they love them and then head right out the door to see OP, so I know they are just words... am I crazy to still wait?? If he doesn't love me, why is he staying?? I do tell him I love him, not as much anymore - hurts not to hear it back, but he knows how I feel and I do tell him, verbally and in cards.<P>Am I just being a whiner here? (pass the cheese) How long do I stick this one out??

Hi...Lisa here.<P>Has it really been 1 year ? He hasn't said "I love you."<BR>I don't know what to say. It's been 6 months for me and my H sounds very much like yours. He however says Ilove you constantly. I however say, Yeah you said it for 17 years & cheated on me the whole time..I want you to show it.<P>Let your H read your post ???<P>Let me know how you make out.

Hi Alberta just wanted to say im not where you are yet my H is still seeing OW but wanted to say i know what you mean about the i love you thing my H still makes love to me but wont say he loves me and hasent since sept 2000 and that hurts so much when i say it or write it its just ignored and then i think hes saying it to her and that hurts all the more <P>------------------<BR>lizzle<BR>The hardest thing to do is watch the person you love love someone else

I don't know the answer to your question--my H tells me he loves me, but only when no one else is around. I can tell if someone is at the house when I call from work if he won't say I love you. It makes me wonder what exactly is going on. Yes, it does hurt when you get no response when telling someone you love them. I have quit saying it as much as I used to and I don't hardly say it when he's at work because I know he won't respond. Don't know what I can say to help you out, but you are not alone.

I guess what confuses me is that he's so loving in many ways. He'll sometimes even just look at me as we are passing by each other doing "stuff' around the house and give me a quick kiss. We tease each other in very sexual ways as well. So how can it be so hard to just say it? <P>Guess I need to keep plowing forward....

Hi Alberta,<P>Have you asked him what those words mean to him? H pretty much says what he means (which is one redeeming quality OW tried to make him lie to his family - he was not good at it). The bad side is that he does not want to say things he truly does not feel 100% about. Which I understand to a degree but that does not stop him from the SF department. Hm........ should it be the same or different? Men vs women thing? I don't know.<P>I long to hear those words. Yet it seems so hard for him to spit out. Hm....... He is ok with the SF part though, will hold and cuddle but say those words .....<P>H has been home almost 3 weeks (those other times don't count anymore), we have discussed this item, he understands about my need for communication. I have even told him that just a 'few' words is enough to send most women wild. Think he'd pick up the hint? He said he would have to work on it. ok job assignment - speak to your wife...... good thing he is not getting paid for completing these assignments or we'd be on the street. LOL.....<P>Try attacking this from the communication side. Is he willing to talk to you about other things? Is the problem just limited to those 3 words? Maybe what do those 3 words mean to him? Is there a bad memory with those 3 words from another time? <P>Just me 'n my questions. <P>Take Care,<BR>L.<BR>

Orchid, they are great questions and I suppose I never really have asked him what it means to him. I guess I'm a little afraid of the truth. He does communicate about other things - although its usually after I've initiated the communication and even then he listens in long silence. I quite often get "I don't know" which in light of the recent events I don't accept anymore. He responded to one of my questions recently with "I don't know" and I told him that was bull...that isn't an answer and not acceptable. He was a bit surprised, but then started talking. <P>Sheesh...<P>

Yep me too..... you sure you don't have any in-laws (out-laws) in California? LOL..... <P>Feels like we're related. I resent that I have to bring up so much. I certainly would like H to initiate more conversations. He knows he needs to try but it definitely is difficult for him. I gave him the same speech about "I don't know" not being a valid excuse. He acknowledged it. \<P>Kind of like crying wolf with that excuse, use it too many times and you lose credibility. <P>L.

He doesn't say I love you cause he is not sure he does, not in the forever, I will always be there way. It is not just 3 words, it is a committment, a serious committment, one he broke, and never wants to break again. As long as he does not say them, he is working at the marriage, but is not being unfair. He won't say them cause he can't, don't push him it is a LB of sorts. You (and the other bs) should focus on your feelings and expressing them as you see fit, when we are ready, we will tell you. I don't say this to my wife either, and suspect I really won't have the ability to even know, for a very long time. But I do love her in the caring, mother of my wife, good person sort of way (for some reason she hates that....sigh, women).

SnL - thanks for your reply. It really hit home, because truly that is what I have been surmising about my H. I know he feels it is a committment and wants to be 100% sure he doesn't break it ever. I guess it is hard because I know he told OW he was in love with her and wonder what committment he had made with that? <P>I guess I would feel more "secure" if I heard the words once in awhile, although that may by silly to think that considering they don't guarantee anything! I wonder too if he's waiting for the giant spark to go off inside of him before he feels he can tell me, and I just wonder if after 12 years of being with someone that could ever happen again.<P>We do have lots of passion, our lovemaking is quite extraordinary now. We have fun as a family, we don't judge each other, I NEVER criticize him anymore. When I see something as a problem to deal with I always talk things though. If I disagree with how he's handled something, I don't ever tell him he's wrong, I simply state my concerns, offer solutions and work towards agreement. If agreement doesn't happen, I swallow it. I don't care if I'm right - not every battle is worth winning. <P>So tell me SnL - does hearing your wife tell you she loves you make you feel good or make you feel uncomfortable. Is it drawing you closer or pushing you back? I'm certainly showing my H all the ways I can think of to tell him that I love him, and the only reason I dont' tell him more in words is that I can't stand the silence following it. It just cuts like a knife.

This is an interesting thread to me and one I'm sure many can relate to. I have been lurking for awhile but just started posting. (since I've only posted once you can read the long version of my story there if you'd like.)<P>My current situation is alot like you describe your life now, life feels great in that when we're together sex is great we have fun doing things together, but in my situation OW is still in picture. Not sure of the degree but H is truly conflicted and stuck on the fence big time. If you read my original post my H had an A 10yrs. ago, which we basically swept under the carpet. I knew that the words I LOVE YOU were missing for a long time. After that affair, I think it just scared the heck out of the two of us, and out of ignorance I now believe, I felt if we kept saying those words to each other it would never come back. I have not heard those words since last July, and I know I will never hear them again from H until he knows he can say them for real. I too have said them out of a need to hear them, but they are just words then. So in that respect, as much as I want to hear them back, I don't really, because if/when they are ever said again, I know they will be for real. Frankly, the actions are what really count.<P>But it sure is confusing isn't it? Particularly in my case, because he does things that make it look like he wants it to work, and yet is not ready/willing to give her up. And in your case, since his actions are so convincing and yet you have discovered contact, you need the reassurance that everything is truly ok, I would think.<P>Thanks for posting

Actually alberta, she does not say it much either, and when she did it sounded hollow in light of her behavioural choices. So now, it does not mean much, one way or the other, the actions are far more important, the professing of feelings verbally is the last step (IMO), sort of like saying will you marry me, ya know? I see your difficulty as unreasonable expectations. You are imposing what you want on your husband, your need to hear this, and rationalizing why it is ok to express that. IMO you just focus on you, let it go, treat each good day with H as a gift. If I had to guess, I would say it is your expectation that he commit with I love you, that is holding him back.....he cannot do this if he knows you expect it (well some folks can of course). Some of us value emotional honesty very highly, is this perchance your husbands biggest EN (it is mine)? By expecting it you um...... are controlling him, he either does not realize, or is just unwilling to discuss it. I have discussed this with my wife (because my need for emotional honesty literally drives my life, and I expect the same from her, total disclosure of every single thing in her mind, something she was never very good at, but is improving, the ow was very good at it, and it was as important to her as food and water too, one of the reasons we bonded so hard). If done properly, maybe you could get your husband to discuss the issue of what saying I love you means to people, this may give you insight. These discussions stress my wife very much, but she is getting better at having them, basically she is afraid of being "dumped", and any discussions about why one should love their wife (and what is love) are very scarey to her.<P>As for ow, yes I told her, and I did, do, love her very much. This distresses my wife terribly. All I can tell you is the same I have told her. This is not a compeitition, it is not I love her, but not you, they are 2 completely different circumstances. Humans have the capacity to love more than 1 person, and to love in many different ways (obviously). Also no one really knows what love is exactly, it certainly has to do with EN's being met, but it also has to do with many other things, trust being one of them too. IMO one of the reasons ws have affairs is they do not trust their spouse, but do come to trust someone else (emotionally). There are also other mysterious issues of "fitting", what we euphemistically call chemistry I guess. Although this does have a scientific basis as the science of temperament analysis improves. Myself and ow fit together like hand and glove re temperament. However, unfortuneately (or not) life is not just about the exact amount of love you have for another, it is a lot of other things too. IMO bs have a very hard time accepting that their spouse can and does love another, but still may choose the marriage. When this is communicated (in so many subtle ways), it impedes the relationship. IMO the most loving thing a bs can do, is acknowledge that their ws feelings are their own, and that it is ok if they love this op, that you respect their right to decide for themselves what is in their heart. Of course this does not mean you forgo your needs, or right to be treated with protection, and thoughtfulness. But you may have to come to grips inside you, with the fact your spouse does have some love for another and always will. If you give them the freedom to have that, you are making deposits in their love bank, and maximizing their potential feelings for you....think about it. <P>

Well, SnL, you have given me a lot to think about indeed and I will think about it...a lot.<BR>I appreciate your time and effort in providing me with some answers.<P>God Bless

snl Your insights from a WS perspective remind me of where I was 8 years ago shortly after my EA. My wife and I are now 7 months into recovery from her EA so I have seen both sides of this and for the first time we both see where we have been and where we are going. Our marriage and love for each other are now stronger than ever, but it didn't come cheaply.<P>Your comments remind me of how I tried to rationalise my EA believing that I was somehow a victim of the whole thing, that humans were capable of loving more than one person and that I deserved to be loved in return for what I gave. While I still believe in this, I now have very different views on what that means in marriage. I realise now that there was a point where both my wife and I made poor choices and crossed a threshold. It is not a mysterious boundary that unwittingly sucks you in. It is one where selfishness takes over and says "what the hell", she/he doesn't love me anyway. A conscious decision to commit.<BR>I agree with you, we are all capable of loving one, two or more people, and neglect may seem like a good excuse, but I now know this does not rationalise or justify what we have done. The only good to have come from what we have both done is that we see the "truth" after 18 years.<BR>We have both found what we were searching for in our own marriage.<BR>I believe god intended marriage to be a journey for two people only, "forsaking all others". Sometimes that journey ends, but a marriage must must be resolved or dissolved on it's own terms.<P>I hope I haven't offended you "snl", I see my old self in some of your comments and your insight is respected by many on this board.

Thx trying, no offense, never any offense, taking offense is a waste of emotional resources. I an here for education, and reality checks. The affair turned over everything I thought I knew about life (married life). And I am now working through it, hopefully a little wiser, and a lot more knowledgeable in the end. My basic philosophy in life is make the best of whereever I find myself, and be proaxtive rather than reactive. I belong to the do something even if it is wrong school of behaviour. That is why the affair occured, the reasons to do it, outweighed the reasons not too, and I have no regrets re those decisions (my regrets are the discomfort it has caused others). An affair is a classic conflict between self, and what others want, their is no right answer. IMO (although would have not thought this pre-affair) affairs are an inevitable and essential component of our species success. Which is why (I suspect) affairs are commonplace, maybe even more commplace than true monogamy. In a fundamental sense affairs are the yardstick by which we measure the success of marriage. It seems we do a poor job of marrying, and in fact when you investigate this, that is true. Very few people do an adequate job of mate selection, and essentially no one enters marriage with any idea of what is required of them....that is a depressing observation re our skills in educating our young people as a society.<P>I don't rationalize anything, I seek to voice theories and subject myself to scrutiny, and competeing theories. I am quite capable of accepting chastisement, but one has to make a better case than I have, before I will accept it. And I do a fair amount of self-introspection as well. I an ok with being a selfish jerk, with a personality disorder if indeed I am, but that I had an affair does not make me so. And fortuneately the counsellors think I am well-balanced as well [of course no one is actually normal anyways ]. Therefore I can only conclude that affairs in themselves are neither good or bad, but a normal outcome of normal behaviour, by normal people. That can sound like a rationalization, but it is not, is a recognition that human behaviour is a lot more complex than we think it is, and fascinating to boot. The affair itself is unimportant, what is far more important is why, and what you do about it. That includes many legitimate outcomes, one of which is the 2 affair people marry, and live happily ever after. We know this is legtimate, cause we can observe it does happen that way (empirical evidence). But we can also observe that the success of people who leave marriages, without proper effort (whether they marry the op, or someone else) is very low. That observation is one of the reasons (and motivations) for me to proceed cautiously. Despite my initial feelings I should simply get divorced, wife will never change, etc.<P>try...Your comments remind me of how I tried to rationalise my EA believing that I was somehow a victim of the whole thing, <P>snl...I sound like I think I am a victim? I don't think that at all, how did you conclude this?<P>try... that I deserved to be loved in return for what I gave. <P>snl...I do not think this. In fact I had no expectations whatsoever about ow, I freely gave myself for her to use as she saw fit. That is how I think love works. I had only one "requirement", emotional honesty, and look me in the eye and tell me she no longer loves me (if it came to that). But I do think everyone deserves to be loved...rightly. I married my wife the same way, but we had pre-marital issues that came wity us as well. But the other part of this is love is not sacrificial, it is synergetic. It only works when you are loved back the same way, otherwise the relationship dies. My marriage is dead, so is the ow, so are most of the ones here. If I reconcille it will be because essentially I choose to remarry my wife, and that will only be because she (and I) changed in fundamental ways that we both recognize, and evokes the feeling of love, not contentment, not settling, not duty/sacrifice....but passion, a recognition that you cannot, will not, live without this person hooked to your hip.<P>try...I realise now that there was a point where both my wife and I made poor choices and crossed a threshold. It is not a mysterious boundary that unwittingly sucks you in. It is one where selfishness takes over and says "what the hell", she/he doesn't love me anyway. A conscious decision to commit.<P>snl...I agree. The problem is this is exactly the same process by which you marry in the first place. It is not some terrible aberration. IMO the process we call making a committment is so strong, it transcends any other concerns. Which also makes sense in an evolutionary way. There is little or no reason not to commit to someone cause someone elses feelings will be hurt, that may sound brutal, but it is a psychological truth, and makes perfect sense as well (as it must if it is true). Even if the consequences of an affair were the bs to die immediately (through some unknown process, just to make a point)...there would still be plenty of affairs. OTOH if the consequence were the affair partners were to lose 20 yrs of their life (and be rendered sterile), would be far fewer affairs. It is all about consequences cost vs benefits....like most human activities.<BR>Try...I agree with you, we are all capable of loving one, two or more people, and neglect may seem like a good excuse, but I now know this does not rationalise or justify what we have done. The only good to have come from what we have both done is that we see the "truth" after 18 years.<BR>We have both found what we were searching for in our own marriage.<P>snl...You made my point, you found a truth that only your affairs could reveal, and made choices accordingly. If you could do your life over, never have the affairs, but also never find that truth, what would you do?<P>try...I believe god intended marriage to be a journey for two people only, "forsaking all others". Sometimes that journey ends, but a marriage must must be resolved or dissolved on it's own terms.<P>snl...I pretty much agree with that. <P>thx for your comments.<P><p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited August 20, 2001).]

snl And thank you for your comments sir.<BR>I guess perceptions differ amongst us all. It's funny how our own individual perceptions change, (and usually without too much acknowledgement).<BR>I suppose the point I was trying to make is my perceptions of the why's and wherefore's of my affair were drastically changed after I had the same thing done to me by my wife 8 years later. I KNOW I was only trying to justify my actions instead of learn from them.

Dear Alberta,<P>What if you let go of your fears long enough to explain to your husband how much you need to hear the words, even if he is not sure of his feelings?<P>The only way any of us know for sure that we are loved is because someone said the words. How else would we really know?<P>Harley wrote about filling our spouse's need for affection: check this out and perhaps you could share it with your husband if you think he would be open?<P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5010_qa.html" TARGET=_blank>How to Meet the Need for Affection Letter #1</A><P>As far as SnL, consider the source and use your own wisdom and gut instincts. I don't think he speaks for all WSs. Everyone is different. I say this not to disrespect SnL, but SnL continues to wander--in other words, he's "out there" IMHO and not MBing... Sorry SnL, but you are not sad nor are you lonely...<BR>