Just curious to know how many folks here have WS's who are self-indulging? My H, who is a WS, has always been into "himself." I truly believe that this need to be "Number 1" has stemmed from his childhood. He is one of six children and was always compared to his older brother which left him a lot to live up to. Therefore, his need for recognition was fueled due to low self esteem. I realize that alot of his antics is the result of proving himself against an older brother who was a perfectionist and accomplished all that he seeked. My H, in comparison has always been in awe of his brother......who, BTW, was the most self-absorbed and basically, MEAN person I ever had the disadvantage of knowing. My BIL committed suicide at the early age of 30 and my H has <B>NEVER</B> gotten over the loss of his brother, whom he admired and tried to emulate. To this day, my H speaks mostly about his own pain and concerns. He is deep into the me, me, me syndrome. How can you relate to someone who is so short-sighted. How do you get through to such a hardhead?<P>------------------<BR><B>Time heals all wounds as long as you DON'T pick at them!</B><p>[This message has been edited by GeezLouise (edited August 19, 2001).]

My H is very much into himself, also. He, like his mother before him, is somewhat of a hypochondriac....always has something wrong with him. However, nobody else is ever as sick as he is. I remember that he once got a nasty virus, and was pretty sick with it. I came down with it next and had it so bad that I ended up in the hospital. Would you believe that he got mad at me for "out-sicking" him? <P>Any discussion about issues that I may have always gets turned around to being about his issues.<P>Frankly, I'm about sick of it.

My husband has also been very much a self-centered person. He could do helpful things around the house---but always had a big need to be glorified. <P>He was like this before he joined the AF, but the AF feed it. He was one of the first pilots to fly this new billion dollar plane...and they flew him all over the country for PR for the plane. Of course that went to his head, and he had 3 affairs with people from these big corporations who were impresses with this hotshot pilot. Now he is in the airlines and has a 28 year old bimbo who idolizes him. I think he will always need to be put up on that pedastal. <P>Our whole marriage was about his career, his fantasies, his needs, his problems. Now it is about his happiness---doesn't matter what it does to me and the kids. Doesn't matter that we stood behind him for all those years, cheering when he did well, and crying when he was disappointed. <P>Wish I had had someone take care of me, as we have stood behind him. Though sad---maybe it is time for us to change our focus from him and his needs, to ours. Sorry this was so long.

Wow Gz Louise,<P>Your H and mine could almost be related. My H is the same way, his needs ahead of everyone elses. H is #3 out of 12. #2 was his older brother who was intelligent but was a schizophrenic and commited suicide about 15 years ago. H has also had a self esteem issue and due to child neglect, this is having a great impact on our life now. It seems as if he is forcing his immediate family (son & I) to make up for all that he was deprived of during his childhood. Going from one addiction (day trading, meeting women, ebay shopping) to another. Ask him to make time for his family, he agrees this is necessary, actually do it is another thing. Yet this very helpful man is willing to put aside his family to go and help someone else. OW loved that, had him rewire her home and other stuff. Handy man paid in sex. Bargain? Nope. H was short-changed and almost lost his family, he lost his self-respect and dignity in the interim. <P>Sad to know there are others out there like that. You have to be strong if you are going to work with them. It is more than just getting over the A, it is changing their mentality and way of life. Because of that attitude, it seems like H was prey to falling for the clutches of an even more self-indulgent OW. Go figure there are actually worse ones out there. <P>L. <BR>

GL - whatever is the opposite of self indulging, my wife is it. She WAS a total giver to everyone, except me of course. This was the big source of friction in our pre-affair marriage - she treated me as an extension of herself, treating me LIKE herself, as a third class citizen. She was nicer to total strangers than she was to me.<P>Then the aliens abducted her.<P>Suddenly, she was TOTALLY self absorbed - aren't all WSs at that point?<P>WAT

Yes, indeedy, WAT! At the risk of injuring some of the more sensitve WS's here, I would have to say That I agree with you 100% WS return to an adolescent like state of mind - compare the behavior of the WS to that of your average teen-ager. There you have it. <P>GL, what an insightful analysis of your H! Only, I'm sure he wouldn't see it that way himself. Why does the truth have to hurt so much sometimes??? It's always what we don't want to hear... and so clear to everyone else.<P>I can't remember if you are in Plan A or B yet, maybe your H needs a good dose of Plan B. Sometimes the WS does not need any more chances to take their BS for granted. And you need to look out for you too, Louise.<P>Khyra

Yes, my H is also self-indulgent... and with lots of self esteem issues. In the beginning of this mess he told me that he felt guilty because he was being selfish, but I didn't see this as a change, just that he took it to an extreme.<P>He doesn't see it that way. To me, he is still very much self-absorbed... Very much like our soon to be teen D. He'll make comments about her and her self absorbtion, but cannot seem to see it in himself.<P>I went with him from job to job, state to state, diet to diet, new idea to new idea. I knew he was searching, but accepted it in him. I stayed at home to take care of our kids with some reservation on my part, and a lot of whining from him about why I should stay home.<P>NOw, work is his life, his career is his focus, along with his office staff, and patients and OW (his assistant) who all seem to boost his self esteem and meet his needs right now. In hindsight, I allowed this to happen to me, but I also know the relationship met my needs as well. My H was devoted to his kids and affectionate, and loving to me... until he "changed". It shook my world, but did not stop it. I'm just hoping to piece my life back, day by day...

<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

Okay I think perhaps my WH was self indulging in the beginning...hmmm or perhaps he thought I was self-indulging and this was his thing for himself. You see, I was going to night school when the A started. WH was stuck at home with two young children (one still in diapers).<P>Come to think of it I do tell him , that he always thinks of himself. Our tax refund comes in, he buys what he wants. I get a sign on bonus from a job, he get new tires for his car and mine have a shifted belt in it. I drive 60 miles to work , he drives 2 miles to work. Hmmmm...<BR>He gets to go out with his friends on the weekend while I sit at home with the children...hmmmm...<P>He did have that low-self-esteem issue going on, too,but I boosted that early in our marriage. <BR>

MNMiissouri, you described my husband to a T. He flew for the Navy, left active duty after 9 years and retired from the Reserves. After he left the Navy he went into sales. Another high ego career and he made a fortune!<P>Life is always about him. He is often angry and petulant when things don't work out his way. We aren't talking about things going my way, but just the simple stuff in life like a dead battery on a car will cause hours and hours of misery and suffering, anger and swearing. I often feel like I am dealing with a 4-year old. He treats the rest of the world like crap however until I discovered his affair and child from the affair, has always been kind with me. Now I too am I target for his anger. He has always been kind and generous with both of our families with his time and his money. There are many good things about him, but this selfishness is really starting to wear me out and I am also sick to death of being yelled and sweared at. <P>Since Dday I have been saying that my husband has one song. It is called "I'm pissed off." He just plays it at different volumes. A close friend pointed out that he has one other song. It's called "I'm better than you." The elements of the song include "because I drive sports cars, I have a big house, I have a boat and all the toys, I make more money than you." <P>Not a very flattering picture I am painting is it? 11 months past Dday all can remember are the crummy times in our life, not the good ones. Even though there were 10x as many good ones as crummy ones. It is funny, 6 months ago, I had all the hope in the world that things could get better, that he would be able to recapture the good, moral person he was almost 20 years ago when I met and married him. He was quietly self-confident and it was very attractive. Now he is loud, agressive, vain and mean and it is very, very unattractive. I hate to go out in public with him because of the way he treats people in the service industry.<P>Our counselor has diagnosed him with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. He is currently working with H on issues of anger management.<P>He lost his job 14 months ago and is just barely beginning to look for one now. He had a child by the affair and owes large child support payments each month, plus we built a life based on two-incomes. We are sinking fast financially but he buys a boat, he puts a $10,000 upgrade on a sports car when a $3,000 repair would have been adequate. <P>He has a taste for only the best in life--expensive wines, cigars, brandies, $2,000 suits, sports cars, etc. It is all very self-indulgent.<P>He still goes out for expensive lunches and is unstatisfied that at home there are many choices like hot dogs, tuna fish, sardines, salads, fresh bread, all things he used to love. Now they aren't lobster sandwiches or lunches out at a restaurant over looking the ocean. <P>I think he is so empty inside he is trying to fill himself up with luxury items to make himself feel better. I know that this affair violated everything he believed in and destroyed his faith in himself as a good person but I am quickly running out of hope that he can recover. I know that I could if I were met half-way, but I don't believe anymore that he can.<P>MJ

Oh boy, Mrs. Job, Wat and Khyra,<P>(I like that name Khyra)....<P>Anyway, your thoughts on a combo - <P>Khyra, can I quote you on that adolescent stuff? I agree yet my H asks why do I treat him like a child? I try hard not to but when there is no reaction or conversation I resort to more simplified questions. That raises a question: Does the WS know they are being child like?<BR>Is this diliberate on their part? How to work with this childish attitude? Seems worse than a stubborn teenager because they are actually adults. <P>Wat, you W is nicer to strangers? So is my H. That is what got him into trouble in the first place. Lend a listening ear to an OW, she caught him in the pants. I keep telling him that women know how to sweet talk a man. I guess because I am more of a straight talker (I will tell you nice and sweet things, if they are true), then I was not willing to lie to him to stroke his ego. <P>Mrs Job. your H and mine must be suffering from a similar aliment. Fully capable men who are either too stubborn or too weak to pull themselves out and willing to loose it all in the interim. The A for mine was a sort of addiction. His low self esteem led him from losing a lot of our family savings and investment on the stock market to A's to ebay auction buying (not a lot but he looks at it daily). We talked about his buying and need to curb it. I would prefer zero right now but am trying to let him come to that decision. If Khyra or others can give us insight on HOW to handle these 'problem children' there may be a chance.<P>Hang in there Mrs J., I know you have been through a lot. I remember your story and really feel for you and your situation. My personal take is that they are frustrated and don't know how to stop themselves. <P>Thanks all, Khyra I am anxious to hear your input. Your insight has been a tremendous help.<P>L. <BR>

Orchid,<P>The name "khyra" is one we considered naming a daughter (if we are ever blessed with one ) Thanks! I hope I still feel like using that name after using it here at the forums ... lol<P>I'm going to disappoint you, I'm afraid. At one time in my life I was diagnosed with Narcissistic PD as well. I was 14 years old. I've since been told that I'm 'cured' or exhibit few enough of the ...er... symptoms (read tirades!) that I don't have it anymore. I believe one can go thru a period of narcissism/extreme selfishness and come out of it again. <P>Mine was a gradual turn about. I didn't get that way overnight and I'll bet none of your WS did either. I think this recent lapse stemmed from feeling taken for granted by my H who in the past kinda put me on a pedalstool, made me feel special, very beloved, beautiful etc. Funny, as self absorbed as WS are, we often feel like absolute sh*t inside! (also teenagerish) <P>Does it seem your WS waver between the extremes of feeling superior to others and feeling total inadequacy? Perhaps that is part of the problem there - the struggle to strike a balance, or more likely the struggle to feel superior ALL the time. It's a losing battle. You start to win, I think, when just being "normal" becomes your goal. When I finally pulled back and allowed myself to <I>think</I> and <I>care,</I> it hit me hard how terribly I acted. And I just wanted to a point where I at least felt OK.<P>So, one of the toughest questions is - How can you get them to see their behavior thru your eyes? I'm sorry I don't have that answer - when my H comes home from work, I will ask him.<P>Khyra<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Khyra:<BR><B>Orchid,<P>I'm going to disappoint you, I'm afraid. At one time in my life I was diagnosed with Narcissistic PD as well. I was 14 years old. I've since been told that I'm 'cured' or exhibit few enough of the ...er... symptoms (read tirades!) that I don't have it anymore. I believe one can go thru a period of narcissism/extreme selfishness and come out of it again.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dang....I had no idea that there was actually a clinical name for this form of behavior. I've heard of people being narcissistic but I truly believed that it was something taken from mythology. My apologies......YIKES <P><P>------------------<BR><B>Time heals all wounds as long as you DON'T pick at them!</B>

Mrs. Job,<P>They do sound so very similar. Scary isn't it. Hope you keep posting...I will be watching.<BR>MnM

My H was not self-indulgent.<P>He did have self-esteem issues, and a father who always made it blatantly obvious that the favored his older brother.<P>I find it interesting that two of the posters mentioned that their H's had a sibling who committed suicide. Almost everyone who suffers from depression has one or more relatives who also do.

Here is a link to a reputible page on Narcissistic Personality Disorder:<BR> <A HREF="http://mentalhelp.net/disorders/sx36.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://mentalhelp.net/disorders/sx36.htm</A> <P>MJ