Hmmmm...<P>yeah...I know he has some deep thinking going on...he's struggling with something...do the answers or possibility of them scare me? yep...yep...yep...<P>How would I have handled the tough answers? Last night I was in a really good frame of mind...like I was in Vegas...we had some tough conversations then and I handled them...such as things about him and OW...their relationship...<P>boy, doesn't the thought that your spouse had deep feelings and deep conversations w/ someone else just make you cringe?<P>My H has a bunch of stuff going on...he made a comment yesterday about church...going to church has always been important to him...now he's saying that since people don't think like he does...and church is full of hypocrites...it isn't as important to him...boy have we switched places...I used to be so 'against' church...felt the people were so political and hypocritical...<P>We are in the process of getting qualified to buy a house...when we move he wants to get all new furniture...it's like he wants to sweep away our 'old' life and start clean...he hasn't said in so many words that he's staying...he hasn't said any words...and I am afraid to ask...is he staying? if he does stay, I don't think it's for me...so I have to ask myself is that enough?<P>Can I trust that if I keep making changes...do a really good plan A...and he stays that he will 'fall in love w/ me?' or, as SnL says, will I get tired of him 'controlling' our lives and me and want to find relief w/ someone else?<P>Or...do I tell him to leave and find himself? (and pray that when he does, he comes back to me...and if he does that I will still care.) <P>Drat, now I am getting weepy...I don't really want my life back the exact way it was...but I would like the innocence of it back...that's what I was thinking yesterday...<P>Sorry this got long,<P>Cali<P>BTW...did I mention that I spent my jr.high & highschool years in MI...I went to CMU for college .

Cali,<P>Sorry to jump in on your thread - Jeffers<P>I know what you mean about wanting the innocence of your relationship - the fact you didn't even think that an A would happen to you. And now, we have to deal with the ultimate pain. I know what you mean about church, it scares me too, but I talk to God and believe in God in my way. The people you speak of anyway, are all around. They are still in your neighborhood, at the grocery, at school - it is how you tackle the world anyway. If you are being a certain way you will see others a certain way. <P>Life is hard, I am sorry you have to go through this. Just like I am sorry we all have to go through this.<P>Your story sounds so similar - I love my H to pieces, and he cares about me, but he is not extending "love" like he use to, and like I want him to. He is frustrated because he can't (I don't - we don't know why). He had a break for the two weeks without me - I am hurting because he isn't the man who loved me like he use to - sound familiar?<P>Good luck on the house, you'll still probably be in HOT So Calif - right? All new furniture, depends if you like the old - or replace slowly.<P>In our situations, I think quick changes throw us off.<P>Still hurting, after shock

^^^bump^^^

I'm not sure I can respond to this properly -- it touches so close to where I am right now. I'll try anyways, I hope you can make some sense out of this.<BR> <BR>I suspected that you were prepared for the answers you might get from a "what's on your mind" question. I had to hear you say it, though. I hope my W is prepared in the same way. She hurt me in the past when I revealed true feelings, but I think she's wiser now. Also, I think I kinda caught her by surprise when I blurted some things out and she didn't respond thoughtfully. Honesty and Openess is her top EN and I'm not meeting it. I need to get SAA and read about the communication stuff.<P>I still don't know exactly how W felt about OM aside from the few emails I saw. She did say that they talked about us (you know, revealing marital secrets). I think that she really wanted to be talking to me and that's why it ended so quickly. I'm honestly not cringing about this stuff anymore.<P>During the past couple of years when our M was at one of it's low points I imagined W in an affair. Tried to see how I would feel. Curiously, the thought gave me hope. I thought I was in a passionless M and if W was capable of passion in an A then there was hope for us. Interesting how it actually turned out.<P>Now we get to the really hard stuff, the stuff that's been consuming me the past couple of weeks.<P>I feel lost right now. I don't know who Jeffers is any more. I need to find him somehow, and I don't think anyone can help me. -- Have you heard similar words?<P>I feel like I'm failing at every task I attempt. I feel ineffectual. I feel I've painted myself into too many corners all at once. I'm talking mostly about career stuff here but it has spilled over and infected all aspects of my life. <P>I used to feel so much joy about everything. Now I just feel panic. You want your innocence back. I want my JOY BACK. I've accumulated more obligations than I can fulfill. <P>I think this has been building for more than a year.<P>During W's EA (April Dday to July) I was distracted from my MLC (at least I think that's what it is). I thought it knocked me out of it, but now it's back. <P>Many weekends I just sit on the couch and stare (a lump). It looks like I'm watching TV, but I'm not. This doesn't hurt the way the EA did, but I don't have a clue about what to do. I just sit and think.... about everything ... mostly my life and how I got to this point. Maybe I'll see where I got lost. That is why so many things on this site are triggers now. They make me think about ME. And once the thoughts start coming I can't get them to stop.<P>So many descriptions of WS's in withdrawal sound like this. Sometimes I think I identify with WS's in this state. I almost understand how an A would look like a way out of this trap. <P>I THINK I NEED A CHANGE. (It's interesting that after shock picked up on the change aspect in your life.) I need to discard everything and start over. Luckily, I don't have an A fogging my brain -- I know I want to keep W and my family!!! So, at least that's a starting point. W is my lifeline right now (I haven't talked to her about this stuff, so she doesn't know that).<P>[I almost have to laugh about this: we badly need new furniture and carpeting and floor refinishing and heat pump..... we're going to use the low interest rates to refinance and get all this NEW stuff -- CHANGE]<P>I'm going to leave town for a couple of months. <P>I was offered a one year job in DC (for twice my current salary!!). POJA time. Turned it down. Would have solved a lot of my career problems. W did not want to see me only one day a week (I'm glad she told me that).<P>After thinking seriously about DC job I think we can handle a shorter absence. I'll probably spend 3 of the next 4 months in Palo Alto (not continuous). I know I'll disconnect while I'm gone and I sort of think that's necessary to find the old Jeffers -- he was able to focus tightly on career issues. I'm depending on W to be there to reconnect with me when I come back. I want to blend the old Jeffers with the new one I've found through MB. Of course, I may also find that I can't handle that much separation.<P>Now, how to apply ANY of this to your questions about your H? <P>CHANGE IS IMPORTANT. This is the insight that both you and after shock have given me today. <P>Are you serving as your H's lifeline while he's adrift in the sea of finding himself? (his quest??) It seems like it.<P>I think the odds that you'll be included in his future when he finds himself are higher if you're his lifeline now. <P>I've been reading and rereading your comment about the house and it's a minefield. I can understand why you don't want to ask him anything. Would you believe his answer?? Do you believe (or understand) his actions??<P>Someone had a link to an article (last week?) about investment in marriage. The BS has a huge investment because of the effort put in to save the marriage. If the WS also had something invested in the M they would be more interested in preserving it (personal stake?). But, most BS try to make things easy on WS so they don't have to exert as much effort and therefore making the M worth less (to the WS). People who put things into the M are happier with it.<P>You must've read that article. You read everything.<P>If your H wants to put effort into this house purchase, that is a good thing. If he wants new furniture, even better. Let him do it all (if he wants). Can you give him that much control?? The more he puts into it, the better. Plus, this gives you something else to focus your attention on (both of you). It is emotionally exhausting to have relationship concerns ALWAYS on the front burner.<P>He may say he's not doing it for you (just the kids?!). Maybe he even believes that.....<P>I'm a true believer in MB. If someone honestly meets your needs, you'll eventually fall in love with them. You CAN make someone love you. I disagree with SnL on this point. The Harley's claim this is how it works, they've done the research. <P>I read somewhere that some people never come out of their MLC in one piece. That worries me. I wonder how often it happens. I think if that happens, you don't get your H back. (I'm worried about me, too)<P>but... It looks like he's doing something to get out of his rut. Is it enough??? I really don't know. <P>It all comes down to you, I guess. He's changing, you're changing. How long can you do this? Will he meet your new (higher) standards? <P>Finally, the easy question: I saw your connection to MI in several of your posts. W grew up 20mi from Mt. Pleasant. We still visit her father there. I grew up near Detroit (SnL also lives around there somewhere). W and I met at MSU. I find it interesting how connected we all are. I nearly spent the next yr. in WAT's backyard. Instead, I'll probably be 20 min. from Orchid for the next 4 mo. It makes all these places seem... friendlier.<P>I'm exhausted, this has taken me 5.5 hours (actually at the keyboard). I'm not even sure it makes sense. I feel a little bit purged, though.<P>--Jeffers<P><BR>

WOW Jeffers!<P>Yeah...I have actually told MIL that I thought this stuff was pushing me into MLC!<P>I had painted myself into all kinds of corners a few years ago...luckily I changed schools...I still DO way too much (one of the younger teachers called me a workaholic)...but that has been my nature...keep busy so that I can't think or feel...<P>I wonder if it is that feel thing that is between H and I...I don't trust love...my mom was supposed to love me and yet...look what she allowed to happen to me...(I am past that w/her...but the after affects wear on)...so I can't feel...he has written that sex is my best connection with him...what does that mean? How can I connect the way he needs me to? With his mind? He has even said that there is NO ONE that thinks like him...did she?<P>I'm sorry about your MLC, Jeffers...try reading the don Miguel Ruiz books that I have read...they really help explain the 'human condition.' He calls it Toltec Wisdom to Personal Freedom...there is so much that we expect out of each other...<P>I know that the A was less about me and what I expect of H and more about how he has disappointed himself and his abilities as a husband and father...I think subconsiously he thought it would be easier apart from his family to take care of his family...he has patently refused to understand that divorce would mean that I would no longer be 'HIS FAMILY.'<P>He and OW have broken promises to each other...he and I have broken vows to each other...where do we go from here? If he can't find his way back...and somedays I am less sure that he was ever here to begin with...how long can I go on w/out a partner totally committed to me?<P>He has never been totally committed to me...committed to the marriage at one time...but not to really being there for me...HE NEVER WANTED TO BE MARRIED...to have a girlfriend or a wife...<P>but I sit at the computer as he sleeps on the couch...HE IS SO BEAUTIFUL...it brings a lump to my throat...I am so passionate about him...and it hurts that I don't think he's ever been passionate about me...back to Orchid's "I want to be swept off my feet."<P>Sorry Jeffers...for some reason I seem to be on a tear tonight...<P>I'm pretty scared to go back to school...several really nice men have expressed interest and I am so vulnerable...the only thing that kept me from doing anything at the end of the school year is that they are sooo young....10 years younger than I....<P>So there is my head...wondering should I just let H go and find himself and let him take the risk that I will be here waiting...wondering if SF is something that I can just get from him because of the way I feel about him...or would someone else make me feel at least as good? wondering....wondering....wondering....<P>take care,<P>Cali

Jeffers & Cali,<P>Jeffers, can't believe how true your sentiments sound. The sitting on the couch thinking - I do alot of sitting and thinking. My H wants to know what I do all day? Mostly paralized stillness - the hurt, anguish, tearing apart heart. If he only knew how much I hurt inside.<P>We need to get away by ourselves for a weekend, to spend time alone - work schedule gets in the way, being able to drop the kids off with someone (my parents are incapable now), now that we are close enough to them. Doesn't work out.<P>We don't get enough time together.<P>Atleast Cali got to go to Vegas - still have to research back to find out how your trip went. You got back, as I left for two weeks.<P>Cali, as I drove away the other night, thoughts passed through my head, where would I find someone to meet my need. But I can't do one night stands, and I can't hurt my H, that hurts me. So for now, I'm stuck.<P>Cali - know what you mean about "coming back". Guess I'll just get into the advice I gave k9love - and just start getting into my own stuff. Just ignore what he's doing, and do me. God only knows how to turn his love around back to where we once were. I just wish I could get past this damn hurt so I could concentrate on school. I only have 15 classes for my BA in Bus Mgmt/Human Resources. If I'd balanced all my electives - I'd been done along time ago - stupid me - now I feel I have no career, and two kids - last summer had no clue what was going on with his anger - now I know fog & withdrawal. He even admitted couple of days ago he doesn't like his anger that comes out sometimes (learned behavior from his dad I think) - he doesn't always exhibit - but it comes out from time to time, and he knows I can't stand it.<P>BTW, Cali, haven't heard a response from you re HOT So Calif. I grew up alot between So Cal, Oklahoma, Kansas, and Missouri. I've lived in 9 states.<P>Hang in there, we are surviving. How much hurt is going away? When I got home I did not expect what I went through. He always gets welcomed with arms open.<P>You guys are right - the BS makes it so easy for the WS. I think I really see - I need to ignore him abit, and just do things I need to do. I know I chase, but I can't help it. After you've been with someone for 15 years you shouldn't have to go through this. Changed me for the better, but H isn't keeping any of his bargain. Marriage vows - he knows I could change and just want to go.<P>I can't believe this game. It's cra*.

<P><BR>Cali,<P>24 minutes? You were able to read AND reply to that post in only 24 minutes? You da lady. You had to be on a tear!<P>I do feel a little calmer today. (A bit embarrassed, too) I don't think I was quite ready to put all that stuff out there, but... oh, well.<P>I still have lot's of thoughts. I don't have lots of time -- here are a few.<P>I bet you got lots of admiration from the younger teachers (for being a workaholic). Are you so sure you're not doing it to get a need met?<P>I was a workaholic during the first 10 years of our marriage and I know I did itfor the admiration of my colleagues!!! The fact that it was hard on my family was a funny extra benefit -- I could be a martyr too. Only I was sacrificing them, not me.<P>Your H says "no one can think like him". Isn't this just a rewording of "Don't ask me anything, leave me alone." If OW thought like him, he would have said so. I think that type of comment is just meant to push you away.<P>You've had lot's of good quotes from the Ruiz books I'll probably have to look into them. I never thought I would ever read a "relationship" or "psychology" type book. Now, I'm starting to build a collection.<P>after shock,<P>I'm glad you joined this thread. Yes, those of us with kids have difficulty getting "nice" time with our spouses to make those good connections. My W and I hadone weekend together in 15 years (since kids) when my parents came to watch them following the birth of our third. It was too soon, we came home after one night because of W's yearning for the baby. Since then all our time has been family time.<P>I'd put a link to my vacation update (I do links now!) but things are too slow to do the search.<P>Well, I still have more to say, but no more time.<P>--Jeffers<BR>

Sorry Aftershock---yep...it has been HOT, HOT, HOT here the last couple of weeks...the trip to Vegas was interesting...I'm not sure I ever really posted exactly what occurred as OW and her H read my stuff...and I'm not sure how 'honest' I want to be about what happened there...<P>Jeffers...I can't post much now,either...will have to wait until after parenting class...<P>'talk' to you all later...<P>Cali

You two are too funny . . . LOL . . . glad you're keeping me in stitches . . . tug, tug, tug<P>Jeffers, another chord hit was "not myself". Strangely enough, I don't feel I am myself - awful hard to explain, I guess it is the pain that causes this. I would like to just shake this off, and be the same person I use to be. Maybe fleetingly at times I feel alright, but most of the time feel awful - I'm not right. And, I am extremely unproductive. If I get productive I am so proud of myself - but it only occurs really once in a while. So I'm just too unproductive. I wish I was myself.<P>Why does this have to happen to us?<P>About a library - yes, I now have an infidelity/fidelity library - the only thing is buying too many books at once - I'd like to read the ones you've recently mentioned, Cali. I have about 25 books on infidelity, and I've checked out many from the library.<P>About the deep conversations . . . yes, makes me furious - like who gave her the right to have H bear his soul. Alot of it was confiding about her marriage - but furious am I about financial info my H told OW. It amazed me - why in the world he would tell her that fact. And I really feel it was none of her business. Oh, the soulmate stuff, he told me, of course, she was his soulmate. Of course, he was in the fog - but yes infurioriating (sp). I don't get down and dirty details, and it goes back over a year ago, and if I bring it up, H really doesn't want to try and remember - so at this stage of the game, details are lost. If I hadn't lost my temper at times last summer, I could have dug for details - I just could not help myself and I didn't know about MB and Plan A back then. The other thing is just about the time he thinks its dead, I'll bring the subject up again - so it's one of these I don't know when it's coming up again things. It has been nice that I haven't been obsessing about it lately, so I don't bring it up. That's good.<P>Okay, I'll explain the deal, at that time we've been married 13 years +, 2 kids, I thought (dumb me) we were best friends. I'd had no better friend than him. She walks in Feb to May 2000 (visits first weekend in June) - 3 months - and she's soulmate. Unreal - totally unreal - I still can't believe it.<P>Okay, I'm walking down my soapbox stairs - remember, don't bring it up at home. I've been so good lately. I don't need to let this stuff start getting to me again.<P>BTW - Cali - you've been strong to be living through all the things you've been living through. Hang in there, gggggiiiiiiirrrrrrrrrllllllllllllll.<P>Too much to do - not enough time. Especially when those kids come along - then their gone - and you miss them. Well, gotta go. One of those books is calling, it really is. lv, aftershock

after shock<P>You got me thinking some more about my vacation and I realized I had a big problem with EXPECTATIONS. I was expecting some big romantic getaway when it was really a family vacation. I realize NOW, that I have done this every year. <P>It really was a pleasant vacation. We had one romantic evening in the beginning, then contact became less and less as the time went on. I disconnected, big time. But, I didn't get as angry as I have in the past.<P>In fact, I was so disconnected that I didn't even notice what W did on the computer when we got back. Did she talk to OM? Don't know. Didn't care. That was a pleasant feeling -- not caring for a while. <P>Fortunately, only a temporary blip in our recovery... W sent a nice email to me today at work asking if I was o.k. She seems different on line -- more playful??? <P>Sooo, we're goin' on a date!!!<P>Switching topics -- I still don't really know much of what went on with W and her EA (online) friend. I'm waiting. I want to talk about lots of other stuff first. But, at some point (years?) I want to hear what it felt like, to her. I know it'd probably be an LB now, someday it may not be. I'll wait.<P>--Jeffers<P>Cali - I've got one more story for you, if I can just get the time....

Expectations - - - - <P>they will get you everytime.<P>Funny, how there were no expectations at the beginning - we held hands, kissed, making love was natural and perfect - no expectations . . .<P>Now . . . I got blasted a couple of days ago (made me think of course) about why would I expect . . . (on my other thread).<P>Well, we're married, and we have a marital relationship, and we sleep in the same bed (unless on business trip), and he did sit by myside and watch both children born - And - they are from him, and me - so how does this change expectations?<P>I just want the love back, I want my H back, and I want my life back, and I want to be me, and I want not to hurt. I want him to feel that he loves me (like he use to), is this just this typical time in the relationship as time goes by, the love dissipates? I don't think it has too - why do I love him?<P>It could be anyone else - I could love anyone else, if they were there to love me - so I just want it back the way it use to be. Pure and simple, tried and true.<P>Now, I'll go cry. aftershock

aftershock...honey...<P>BE YOU! BE YOU! BE YOU!<P>I am more 'me' than I was before...I quit having expectations...expectations are what got me here in the first place...<P>I said, when this first started, that I wanted my life back...but truth is...as I look back...I really just want my H committed to me and our marriage...I want him to act lovingly towards me...I NEVER WANT TO GO BACK TO THE WAY IT WAS BEFORE...because while I thought we had committment...we were not happy...I was stressed, angry and frustrated 6 days out of 7...<P>I didn't like coming home...I didn't like cooking dinner...I would grudgingly do so then escape to my room and escape even further into some mindless romance novel...<P>It wasn't always this way...just the last five years...I used to love to plan meals and make them...I looked forward to being home with my H and my first son...then with each child and each year, my H withdrew further and further into himself and I got more and more angry, frustrated and depressed...<P>I WILL NEVER GO BACK...<P>Today what could have been an LB session, turned productive...I was anxious because we (I) had left the final registration process of our children's daycare until this week...one week before school started...I was worried they were going to be full...so, I took the chicken way out and asked H to take the paperwork in...I just wanted to avoid it...of course, when I came home...it wasn't done...I WAS MAD...WHY COULDN'T HE DO JUST THIS THING? But that wasn't the real issue...the real issue was my avoidance...when I showed my frustration, H got that disgusted tone with me...and I hedged and circled and kept trying to avoid why I was REALLY mad...and it wasn't that I was angry with him...I was mad at me for procrastinating and then trying to push it off on him and avoid the whole thing...<P>So, I fessed up...we piled into the car...took the paperwork in...the [censored]'t director didn't even blink...took the paperwork...took the 1st week's tuition and the kids are all set for Monday...<P>This, in the past would have caused a HUGE, HUGE fight...and I would have made it all about him and what he didn't do for me...<P>Instead, he just shook his head at my 'worries' and we moved on...<P>Boy, I got off on a tangent...the moral of my story is DO WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO FOR YOU! Don't be sad...it just breaks my heart to read your stuff...<P>MAKE YOURSELF HAPPY! Take care of yourself...<P>Cali

Jeffers--<P>I await your story ...<P>Cali

WOW, to both of you. <P>aftershock,<BR>I have done so little reading on MB this week that I finally had to go read the rest of your thread. There seems to be so many positive things going on that Steve H. has got to be able to find a path for you. But, 19 months??? I don't know how anyone survives in limbo that long. Don't blame yourself. We all seem to get into this trap of thinking there must be something we're STILL DOING WRONG when things don't change. There were times when there was very little love in our M, but it DID come back.<P>I've done the questioning about what if I had done it all with someone else. More fantasy than reality. It would have been different, probably NOT better. <P>I'm even certain that I could start over now with almost any reasonable person and make a fantastic M (because of MB). But, it wouldn't compare with what W and I are able to do with the same info.<P>Cali,<BR>You've described my M to a Tee. At least what it must have felt like from the other side. W devoted ALL of herself to the kids and I got the impression (from her) that I wasn't giving them enough of me. There was no US. <P>There was a period of time, about 6 yr ago that I became convinced she no longer liked me. Not angry, just that I was not a person she liked -- it seemed to come out in all her interactions with me. I really thought it was over. I was expecting to be together until the kids left, but I couldn't picture us after that. However, things did improve after that, we didn't do anything, but a couple of months later things were just.... different.<P>We were really improving about 2 yrs ago, but then took two children into our home in an emergency foster care situation (neice and nephew). This was kind of overwhelming. W undertook almost all the extra responsibility for this, but instead of taking things out on me, it led to her EA. <P>The extra kids are gone, our own kids are a little more independent, there is an US again. We're recovering from LOTS of stuff. W apoligized recently (for M stuff), but it wasn't really her fault. I think everyone with children goes through something like this. <P>My personal LB success story came after the BAD shouting match I had with my 15 y son last night. Instead of physically removing him from the room, I sighed and walked away, leaving him to calm himself down. Next time I have to figure out how to avoid the shouting part too.<P>--Jeffers

Jeffers,<BR>Good for you - yes, you have to stop the shouting. Think about, viewing how you look. Next set yourself up for a test, next time you get to that situation tell yourself you are going to talk about it - instead of yelling just talk. Talking will connect - Yelling (the other person) will disconnect.<P>Cali can tell you this - (teacher of course), Ask him a question - that will make him think, and you listen to the answer.<P>Let us know how this technique is for you.<P>I know, my kids got under my skin, and I yelled at them all the time. Very unproductive. It took some extra training on me, but I quit yelling, and just talk to them - I get better results - but it did take some retraining for me. I started doing that before MB, but I can see it is part of the angry outbursts part of MB.<P>Did not work last summer though when I'd discovered what was happening, and OW in the picture - so many tantrums - angry outbursts. I was fortunate that H told me fairly early on that he saw he could not remain friends with her. Then next day sent a post card to her on vacation. That was his last transmission to her. I found MB in 2001, and other principles here, have made the difference. Since he's still here, I hope its because he wants to be.<P>Cali, I know, I want to get there . . . be yourself. But the self is really hurting inside. You are correct in that the old habits were unacceptable, and that is why this came about. Now I have to get my rear in gear, and get some things done in the manner I need to do them. My H divides the evening time between letting me use the computer, and him using it. Last night he watched a movie with the girls. He is detaching his total attention from the computer from before. I've attached more attention to it.<P>I've done alot of correcting in my attitudes, and my H sees what he does wrong, he's even admitted changes to me this week. Things he doesn't like to so, but does none the less. He's seen his daughter do something that he does (never thought she saw him), but the process is repeated none the less. I really need to take my own advice and get into my own projects. I know I do alot of self talk to make things right inside - but I'm still dealing with the paralyzing horror of what happened to this marriage, and my self esteem (not too good right now). I just don't feel good about things, and can't bring myself to get into them, I know I should, I just can't seem to get moving in that direction. One thing is spending time here . . . know what I mean. It could be different if I'd been treated differently when I came home. Still planning on setting up appt with Steve. <P>All I am is saying is that I want my H to love me in our marriage. The thing to do is back away, do my own thing. I cannot make him do this - this is his avenue. But what he ultimately does affects what I ultimately do. Because you well know what is happening, but that cannot continue to happen. Somewhere he needs to be a husband, in the husband sense. later, aftershock

aftershock---amen...I know that someday I may be in your shoes...it is just early on in the process for me...right now I am 'accepting' of his not being able to be a husband...though I HATE IT and I crave it...oddly enough I get sex, but no cuddling...so I am craving the affection, the kissing the cuddling...<P>Jeffers...H and I are currently taking a course called "Parent Project." There are specific ways to deal with adolescents...oddly enough, very like dealing with WS's...gotta watch the angry outbursts and the selfish demands no matter how old or what the relationship...<P>and you figured it out on your own...yelling creates disharmony...they just tune it out...Walking out of the room was the best thing you could have done...<P>We have learned specific techniques in dealing with adolescents and the strong-willed child...if you have a scenario you'd like to share, I can share what is recommended...<P>I'm tired...I have been working all week...Jeffers what is your role in education? <P>I am outgrowing the classroom...this week I have been training teachers in certain topics...I am a mentor teacher in my district...I am a computer trainer and I also train teachers in understanding how poverty affects achievement....I am looking at becoming an independent consultant in the future...<P>Take care,<BR>Cali

Cali,<BR>I don't know if I give great advice, but at least the stories might be useful. This was the story I was referring to last night. The other posts this morning seemed more urgent so I responded to them first.<P>At the end of April (d/day mid-April) I had invited a speaker to come and talk to our department. I had to find a good mix of people to entertain him. Since the speaker was here to talk about educational programs... and our new faculty tend to be the most interested... I decided to invite one of our newest ones. Both of our newest faculty members are women. I invited the single one. There were a zillion professional reasons to have her there. <P>I found out where she lived (2 mi. from my house). How much she enjoyed the commute. Her relationship status. Plus, many other "professional" items of interest. Charming woman.<P>Sooooo... you also know some nice hotties at work. I bet you can't have even a simple conversation with them without watching yourself to see how you're reacting. Should you be asking that question? What did he mean by that answer? <P>Not that I'm against dating by married people (ha ha, just kidding). I just don't think you'll find it as easy as you think. We're hypersensitive about these things. No sneaking up on us the way it snuck up on our spouses. For us it's got to be on purpose. We know too much -- know how much it'd hurt. <P>Don't be afraid of going back to school, just be a little wary. The change will do you good. Enjoy the hours where you have to think about other things!! <P>(I hope it's clear how my story ended???) <P>I'm more worried about "old" people than "new" people. sad_dad's post about EAs last week started me down this whole train of thought about my relationship history. I had one GF previous to W that I realize I'm probably bonded to for life. I still think about her occasionally. I don't remember any bad stuff about her anymore, just good stuff. W hates her -- they were rivals-- so we're not likely to have deep discussions of this. <P>I've always wanted to see her again (you know, just to "catch up", show pictures of kids, etc). I believe the Harley's-- that shouldn't ever happen.... But I really want to.<P>After sad_dad got me remembering, I believe. I realized that I DO know how strong an EA can be. Scary stuff, this remembering.<P>--Jeffers<P>P.S. LOL, I just saw your latest post. I'm behind again. I have more answers and questions.<BR>

Cali,<BR>Something just occurred to me that I don't remember seeing in any of your previous posts. Have you thought about your SF battle with your H in terms of control?<P>Control seems to be an issue your H brings up a lot. I've read somewhere (on MB?) that the spouse with the least need for SF has enormous power in the relationship. Your H may or may not realize he has this power, but he does. <P>I think if he wanted to really hurt you or drive you away he would abstain completely. So it seems that he's mainly making a point about the one thing he has control over. That might be why you have SF, but no affection.<P>Or, maybe he trying to make his actions seem consistent with his words ("I don't love you"). But, he's still there, so that makes no sense. I may be wrong, but this has to take effort to maintain this detachment. He may get tired of holding himself apart and start "slipping up" (Yeah, I just saw your other post). You can be hopefull. (Notice this is not the same as "expecting".) <BR>I don't know if understanding makes it hurt any less.<P>My W has the same power and it was very damaging. For the last 10 years (that's when I started noticing).<BR>No initiation, no kissing, very little affection during. Infrequent. I had to guess when it was a good day, sometimes it wasn't and rejection IS painful (because W would not indicate "let's do it", but only no). <P>That's how I learned to NEVER LB, especially on days of possible SF (she interpreted this as me only being nice to her when I wanted sex - I can't dispute that). <P>But, If I didn't attempt it would NEVER happen. I tried to wait her out several times (to get her to initiate). The longest I ever went was 2 months but it was unbearable and I would always give in. Frankly, I don't think she understood what she was doing (benefit of the doubt here), and she has recently given up her control (and even initiated). It makes a world of difference.<P>Well, I have a date tonight so I gotta go. <P>I'll be back to answer your question about my connection to education later (got me thinkin').<P>aftershock and cali,<BR>I'm going to start a thread soon with scenarios about adolescents. I have LOTS of questions.<BR> <BR>-- Jeffers

YOU ARE SOOOO RIGHT ABOUT CONTROL! My H and I have argued over this issue...I say HE has control over the SF and he argues that a man can never have control because a woman has to 'give it up.'<P>HA...I too have 'outwaited' my H...6-8 wks. was the longest...but he initiated finally...that's been the pattern for the last few years...I got tired of being 'rejected.' So our sex life dwindled...unless we were away for the weekend somewhere....(and, with 3 kids, it does get more difficult).<P>newwoman's post talks about the mutual struggle for control in her marriage...that's how I see it...her post to SnL was very powerful for me...<P>Gosh, I have made such good friends on MB...some of these posts just put a big lump in my throat...<P>Thanks and I await the 'rest of your stories...'<P>Cali

My connection to education: Physics Professor at a Research University.<BR>Sorry, got to explain what that entails (in my case).<P>I'm supposed to do research, research, research (externally funded, of course), as little teaching as I can get away with, and fake some committee service.<P>Unfortunately , I'm a good teacher (according to my students) and I like teaching the huge introductory classes that "real" researchers avoid (too much work). I also have trouble avoiding committee service. <P>W had the foresight to get me involved in volunteering at our Elem school. I then did some Odyssey of the Mind coaching and learned a lot about how kids "work".<P>Now, I'm one of our Department's outreach people. Last year I took a "Roadshow" I developed to a bunch of schools in the area. Oh, I've also given a couple of 2-week summer workshops to certify HS teachers to teach AP physics in our state. <P>All of this non-research stuff doesn't count for my career, but to me seems really important. <P>Sooo... I'm going to spend 3/4 of my time traveling this fall to get back into research and see if that's really what I want to do. Some decisions to make soon. <P>Our state has gotten into "accountability" for schools. Schools get report cards. Failing schools get punished. Failing schools are supposed to get help (money to hire teaching specialists -- like you) but there's no money and not enough specialists. I imagine this is all the rage now (accountability) and you will have schools pursuing you for your services.<P>I finally had a chance to go back and read lots of posts. Amazing how many marriages are battlegrounds... and we don't understand why we're fighting. Bramblerose's post about acceptance was right on target.<P>--Jeffers<BR>