long time lurker<BR>first time poster<P>my wife is having an EA/ possible PA with a man who claims to be of this Wiccan religion. i heard they cast spells and stuff. is this an evil religon or vodooism or paganism or something can someone please help me i fear for her well being

I really don't know much about it, you could probably do a search and find lots of info. What I understand is that they practise witchcraft.<BR>

Outtathefog,<BR>It is the practice of witch craft and it is very powerful stuff. It freaks me out just telling you about it. It's not a game or something fun to play with. I think all magic is evil. I would start praying for your wife everyday. And I will pray for the both of you Good luck. Sherry<BR>

I don't know much either, but as I understand it Wiccan is a nature, paganistic religion, although they do I believe do spells. As I understand it they believe in doing no harm, in not using their "magic" for harm, and do not worship the devil. The ugly things we hear about "witchcraft" and devil worship are not Wiccans.<P>Hopefully someone will reply that has more knowledge about Wiccan for you.<P>Juanita

Hey! Join the club. My H's OW was a wiccan. <P>Wiccan are "white witches", the supposedly can only use their magic for good or else it goes against some kind of code or something.<P>Their are also witches that practice black magic, but they are not called wicca's. <P>I had the "pleasure" of talking to OW once about God (before I knew what she was). She said she didn't believe in God (yes, so it is a pagan religion), but that she did believe in doing the right thing and all this other crap about how what she was doing with my husband was "meant to be" because they "loved each other". <P>I posted a while back about this... You can probably do a search on the board and find my post, it had some very good info it it.<P>Good luck!!<BR>HbH

wicca religion? complete joke, a get togather for idiots. basically our society has many empty souls who grasp at anything offering some excitement, meaning, involvement. these are people,who are by nature superstituous, mostly one finds them in fundalmentalists churchs. by some fluke they wind up with satan worshipers, jim jones's and assorted nuts. you are dealing with crazy people, engaged in magical thinking, which has no basis in the real world. however, that does nothing to slow them down. you presenting a logical , rational affront to these people will be met with derision and anger. usually people in these situations have to melt down emotionally before they can be helped. you may not be able to do this alone. if you can get her admitted to a mental institution on some grounds the staff may be able to help her. you might kidnap her and keep her under house arrest until she wakes up but that is probably illegal. don't beat yourself to death trying to help her clear her mind. good luck

I have a neice who is Wiccan.<P>Her explanation of Wicca matches Juanita's. It is nature/earth based without evil intent. There is a lot of faith in the power of spells/magic to cause good things to happen.<P>I see some of what joell says: these people don't understand how to operate in the real world and this is a substitute. My neice was a good example. She sort of went off the deep end and we ended up with her children. I don't think Wicca caused that, but I think she gravitated toward it rather than deal with reality.<P>W met one of the high priests in the circle that our neice was involved in and he was a very kind, caring man. He worked as hard as any traditional clergy to get her to face up to her responsibilities, but failed.<P>Your wife is probably being offered easy answers to complex problems. I'm not sure this is any different than the typical "fog" of an affair.<P>--Jeffers<P>

I just love the spirit of Christian love and tolerance on this board sometimes.<P>This is not one of those times.<P>I suppose some of you folks figure you should throw the guy in the well and see if he floats to determine if he's a witch, eh?<P>A giant leap forward into the 17th century.<P>Repeat after me: WICCA IS NOT SATANISM.<P>I repeat: WICCA IS NOT SATANISM.<P>Can we please give this fellow some CONSTRUCTIVE INFORMATION, please?<P>Outtathefog, please see my post to you at the Emotional Needs board:<P> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/005765.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/005765.html</A> <P>I'm not going to dignify some of the rest of these with a response.<P>Meanwhile, those of you who are secure enough in your faith that you don't need to bash others might want to check this out:<P> <A HREF="http://home.att.net/~macmorgan_design/guide/whatis.html" TARGET=_blank>http://home.att.net/~macmorgan_design/guide/whatis.html</A> <P>

confused. no one said wicca was satanism. as I was saying earlier many can pronunce words, however, a great many cannot comprehend the words. wicca is like many fringe groups. built on superstition, like satanism , like a lot of other fads which those with little faith and less understanding latch onto. this also includes a lot of fundalmentalist ideas. no one is throwing this person any where. people are trying to give him some ways of seeing the behaviors for what they are. too, if he can grasp the realization that those who follow or get involved in such things are not rational people, it may help him to avoid some mental anguish. really try and read and think about what is being said. those of us who post here do so with the best of intentions

In my teens, a close friend of mine used to babysit regularly for a couple who were of the Wicca 'religion'???<P>Anyways, there are two things I remember Justin telling me about his 'church'. One: Their biggest 'holiday' is Hallowe'en (like the christians' Christmas), and Two: their 'spells' work like the power of prayer. Justin told me himself one time, that there were groups of his faith gathering to send good thoughts and strength to a boy who had a brain tumour or cancer or something like that. So IMO, although that may be referred to as their 'spells', it's the same as the power of prayer to me.<P>If I were you, I would keep an open mind about Wicca. It is most certainly NOT part of their beliefs to ruin other peoples marriages. It just so happens to be the OP's 'religion'. If your S is involved with someone of that 'faith', then I could see the desire to investigate it. But if they aren't, then why waste your valuable energy on the OP? That's just my opinion of course.<P>Karen<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>wicca is like many fringe groups. built on superstition, like satanism , like a lot of other fads which those with little faith and less understanding latch onto<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>"fringe groups"<P>"superstition"<P>"those with little faith"<P>Go back and see how judgmental that sentence sounds.<P>Especially when Christianity used to be regarded as such. <P>I'll say one thing for Wiccans: They don't judge Christians the way Christians judge them, especially when it's clear you don't know the first thing about them.<P>

Joell, I tend to agree with Dazed here. Even though the OW in my case was wicca, and the mere word sends shivers of hatred down my spine, I still realize that this is just another religion and that actually most wiccans are really nice people that just believe something different than I do.<P>Maybe I am wrong, but Pagan and Satanism is NOT the same thing. I thought pagan meant you don't believe in god and Satanism meant you worshipped Satan.<P>I think it is good for outatthefog to learn about this religion, even if OM is the only one that practices it. At some point, his wife may become involved and it would be good to understand what is involved so that he can say, I understand, that is interesting, etc., etc. instead of LBing...<P>my 2 cents.<BR>HbH

DazedandConfused<P>Thanks for the Wicca link.<P>--Jeffers

Outtathefog,<P>I know a man who's wife got involved with what you are asking about - Wiccan - I am pretty sure - he explained to me how she got involved with the people, stayed out late, partied, started doing different (strange) things.<P>They had three children, she left him for another man involved in this, ultimate divorce. <P>I don't remember all the specifics, but if you need, tell me, and I can contact him for more info.<P>I feel badly for him, because he really loves his three kids, and his wife left him. He deals with the pain of his divorce, and his wife who weirded out.<P>That's all I know. aftershock

The difference between Christianity and cults (not that 'cult' is a bad word), is that Christians believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Savior and Messiah.<P>If anything, Wicca is a cult by definition of religious practices that do not embrace God.

BTDT:<P>Go back and read your post. Better yet, I'll post it for you:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The difference between Christianity and cults (not that 'cult' is a bad word), is that Christians believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Savior and Messiah.<P>If anything, Wicca is a cult by definition of religious practices that do not embrace God.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>BTDT, do you want to know why people like me are fighting against mandatory Christian prayer in public schools and Christian symbols in public property? It's NOT because we want to persecute Christians or because we don't want you to practice your faith. It's because of attitudes like this, in which every faith other than yours is a cult that must be wiped out.<P>See also: The Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, and other bloody attempts by Christian hierarchies to wipe out everyone who doesn't agree with them.<P>How insulting to the millions of Buddhists, Hindus, Shintos, and other religions that predate Christianity by many hundreds of years. Let's not even TALK about Judaism.<P>I am not anti-Christian. I have no problem with anyone practicing his or her faith. It is the "one-true-way"-ism of many practitioners of Christianity; the politicization of Christianity, that I object to; the kind of mean-spirited judgmentalism that BTDT's remarks demonstrate. It is this sort of sentiment, this lack of respect for differing faiths and this NEED to convert everyone, that gave rise to the many atrocities that have been committed over the years in the name of Jesus.<P>I keep remembering a line from, of all things, James S. Kunen's 1960's book about the Columbia University demonstrations: "If Jesus knew some of the things done in His name, He would puke."<P>That said, let me enlighten you on some Christian rituals with their origin in Celtic Paganism:<P>1) Baptism, a common Christian ritual, has been practiced for over 8000 years and originated as a pagan ceremony conducted by mothers to their infants as a dedication to the Goddess.<P>2) The Trinity: Another concept with its origins in the sort of paganism that gave rise to Wicca. In matriarchal religions, the Trinity is mother, maiden and crone; mother being the "creator of life" (or God, as you'd say); maiden as the offspring of the Goddess (Jesus?), and crone as the spirit of the wise women who have preceded us (Holy Spirit).<P>Did you also know that the very same women who were later burned by the Church as witches were once regarded as physicians and healers in pre-Christian days? These were the herbalists, the midwives, those in tune with nature as a healing force. Very threatening to have such powerful women around while trying to build a patriarchy.<P>3) Mary Magdalene: Mary Magdalene was a temple prostitute 2,500 years ago in Europe. The word magdalene itself was the term for temple. She was revered by Pagans for her work in astronomy and healing. Only after the Christians began to conquer Europe did they include her in the Bible to give the Pagans a recognizable symbol with which to associate, to better assimilate into their religion. (Note how the Christians painted her as a whore yet she was forgiven by Jesus. This is because the true Mary Magdalene had promiscuous sex with her male followers. It was common for temple priestesses to have sex with her followers during her menstruation for it was believed that it cleansed and empowered them. Hence when Magdalene was written into the bible she was noted as a "prostitute".)<P>4) Christmas: The celebration of the Winter Solstice pre-dates Christmas by some 6000 years. Also goes by the name of Noel, Yule, Tide Time, etc. The winter solstice was a day of prayer that the earth goddess would birth her consort the sun god, (analogous to birth of Jesus) hence bringing back light and warmth to the Pagans, much as Christ was the bringer of light to his people. The Pagans decorated and lit the fir trees to make a path for the new sun god to follow home. According to scripture Jesus was not even born in December, but early November. You can see this yourself for that is when the star of Bethlehem is brightest in the sky. There is evidence that the church allowed these holidays to keep the Pagans compliant, ultimately absorbing them into its own tradition, to keep the numbers up. To this day Christians still celebrate Christmas with these traditions. <P>5) Easter: Celebrated by Pagans for 8,000 years as the "Vernal Equinox". Also known in Celtic languages as Ostarta and Eostre. Think about it. Just what does Jesus have to do with an egg anyway? The Vernal Equinox was a celebration of fertility. Over the long winter the sun god would grow and by spring he was ready to be reborn a man. The Celts would rejoice that the Goddess was to mate with her male consort and give him rebirth (resurrection) so that she could impregnate the earth and the crops would grow. Eggs, being a symbol of fertility, were left all over the land to remind the goddess to procreate. Now if this was solely a Christian holiday, would we bother to re enact these ancient rituals? And why the eggs?<P>7) Cakes & Ale: analogous to the "Wine and Wafer" ceremony, it was performed by Pagans for 4,000 years prior to Christianity. It was typically done after a magic ceremony in which energy and prayer is raised, similarly to the way the Catholic Church uses cakes & ale after mass.<P>And evidence of Greek Mythology as the origin of many Old Testament Biblical Stories (oh yeah, but that's just the book those d*mn Jews follow, so who cares about that, right?):<P>Greek mythology: <BR>1) David and Goliath: This was originally an adventure from the Iliad. There is a story in the Iliad about a man that defeats a giant with a stone that blinds him. <P><BR>2) Moses' Miracles: All of the miracles that Moses is described to have used to bring the law of God to the Jews, are taken from prior religions. The flowering rod, the river of blood, and tablets of law, etc. were a part of Greek mythology. The Greek Goddess Hectate had Rhea, the mother of Zeus, draw water from a rock like God had Moses do for the Jews. The miracle of splitting the sea was also a power given to Artemis by Hectate so that he could continue his journey in Byblos. Can anyone say the underlying story of the parting of the Red Sea here? <P>3) The fruit of Knowledge: Eating an apple which contained all knowledge, especially that of evil, was what trapped poor Pandora in her box. This myth existed hundreds of years in Greek Mythology prior to the writing of the Old Testament Adam and Eve story.<P>And here's a religion (BTDT would call it a "cult" too) that ought to sound familiar to you all:<P>Mithraism.<BR>----------<P>The whole foundation of Mithraism, which dates from ancient Rome, is based on a Messiah, who takes up the sins of the world, and who is born of a virgin. The two stories fit almost perfectly. In the Myth of Mithra a priest-king takes the place on the cross for the Messiah, so he would not die. What is interesting and not well known is in 400 A.D. there was 28 gospels in the Christian Bible. Pope Theodore admittedly removed the gospel where Sid of Cyrene takes the crucification for Jesus. The abjurations Pope Theodore drew up were found and can be easily located by means of research. Also in Mithraism, the 'body' was removed to an adjacent tomb. From which, a day or two later, it 'miraculously' disappeared. Those two stories are just too similar for it to be a coincidence <P>In the Mithraic religion:<BR>-Mithra was miraculously born on December 25. <BR>-Shepherds and Magi witnessed Mithra's birth. <BR>-Mithra is a savior. <BR>-Mithra is a mediator between humans and a higher god. <BR>-Mithra is a judge who rewards the eternal souls of good people with eternal salvation, of evil people with eternal damnation. <BR>-Mithra died, descended into the earth and was resurrected. <BR>-Mithra was called the "Good Shepherd" and pictured carrying a lamb on his shoulders. <BR>-Mithra's blood is called the "blood of the Lamb." <BR>-Mithra's followers are baptized. <BR>-Mithra's followers practice a sacred meal of bread and wine. <BR>-Mithra's followers observe Sunday as a holy day.<P>And back to the Celts for a minute:<P>1) The Adam and Eve story about God taking a rib from Adam to make Eve: This story was believed by Druids for approximately 6,000 years prior to the Bible's invention. It is said in Druidic religion that the God and Goddess went about making human kind. God was the first to create by taking "clay" of the earth, forming man and "breathing" life into him. The Goddess took one of her own ribs to make women. <P>And consider this about "heaven and hell":<P>Zen Buddhism (which is the mystical branch of Buddhism, as Sufi is the mystical branch of Islam, Kaballah is the mystical book of Judaism, and the Contemplatives represent the mystical branch of Christianity, though it could be argued that Catholicism, with its emphasis on ritual, is its mystical branch) has the concepts of Nirvana, and its opposite, Samsara. On one side we have Nirvana - unconditional loves, permanent values - the Real world, our heaven. No egos and no judgments, just God in all His Persons - and peace, joy, truth and freedom - and the Eternal moment. We enter Nirvana through the act of meditation.<P>On the other side we have ego-awareness or Samsara as we call it... this is the Buddhist equivalent of hell... it is the world of illusion - appearances, judgments, opinions, conditional loves and values... In all our egotistical judgments - about clothes or art, or our instantaneous opinions about other people's guilt or innocence, or their sincerity or duplicity - about anything at all - we place ourselves at hellish risk.<P>In short, according to Zen Buddhism, Samsara, or Hell, is the world of the ego; the world in which we judge others (as for their religion, for example). The Buddha described this world as "bitter and painful." And based on the undertone behind many of the posts I see here deriding all nonChristian religions as cults, I'd have to agree.<P>The reason I posted this long diatribe is this: There is far more that unites the world's faiths than divides them. Indeed, Christianity, a relatively new religious system, has its roots in many of the religious traditions some of its adherents would like to see wiped out.<P>A particular faith is adopted by an individual because it somehow speaks to us. Sometimes we are born into a religious tradition and adopt it because it's what we know; others of us take a more circuitous journey before we find that special place that true spirituality offers. <P>Christianity has some very interesting aspects, in my opinion, and as those of you who have posted here for a long time know, some of the people whose opinions here I value most are devout Christians. They may believe they are right and I am wrong, but they do not judge, nor do they proseletyze. We are people of good will who disagree.<P>But getting back to the original poster: I suspect that the OM's chosen spiritual system is less a factor in the EA/PA than other needs he's filling. Your job: Find out what they are and what you're NOT doing.<P> <P><BR>[This message has been edited by Dazed and Confused (edited August 27, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Dazed and Confused (edited August 27, 2001).]

I have read everything above and will make my response short. "HOPEFULLY!"<P>Wicca is not evil and is not a cult. If you choose to have a closed mind, so be it. As long as you don't start pointing fingers and labeling others.<P>Yes, there are poeple who pratice forms of Wicca, that do not have good intentions.. That is not Wicca.

Dazed,<BR> I THINK I can understand where you're coming from. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it <B>seems</B> that you think Christians should somehow acknowledge that there are other paths to Heaven...that our failure to do so is intolerant. Is that right?<P> I do agree that we should not be disrespectful toward others who have different religious beliefs. Can you allow Christians the same courtesy? <P> I'm not sure that you understand what being a Christian really means. Actually, I think that a lot of professed Christians don't really understand what being a Christian means.<P> As I understand Christianity, becoming a Christian means that we accept Jesus Christ as Messiah, Son of God, and that we believe that He died on the cross to save us from sin...that He took the punishment for our sins so that we might have eternal life. We believe what Jesus said, that no one comes to the Father except through Him.<P> Yes, I understand that this belief is not tolerant of other religious beliefs; however, if we were to acknowledge that there are other paths to Heaven besides faith through Jesus Christ, then we would not be true Christians. Also, as Christians, we are instructed to tell others about Jesus.<P> That being said, Christianity does NOT mean "putting down" others' religious views, even as we hope to persuade others to our faith. It is true that many of us come across too strong and that too many of us have trouble being Christ-like and setting a Christian example. Becoming a Christian does not mean that we instantly become some sort of "perfect" human being, although it seems that some folks think we should. This doesn't mean that we should give up on trying to eliminate sin from our lives, but we first have to realize what sins we are committing. I'm not talking about the "biggies", but the sinful behaviors that we may exhibit without even realizing it. I think I'm the biggest offender I know in this area. <P> Anyway, I don't mean to preach; I just wanted to put my 2 cents in. <P> Just wanted to add that there are good people all over the world, of so many differing faiths. Also, the reason that Christianity is a "new" religion is because it couldn't exist until the birth, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Lady Clueless (edited August 27, 2001).]

D&C <BR>I haven't posted in months (lurk daily) but this topic is pulling on me... you've said it all and I thank you. The link to Wicca that you posted is really interesting. I suggest that if anyone REALLY wants to understand this faith they follow your link to the Army Chaplains Handbook explanation. It's really well written. <P>The intolerance and ignorance that many people express towards people outside of their own faiths is what keeps me out of churches. I'm a "solo" practicing Catholic, venturing into the cathedral about twice a month at only the quietest times. It's funny though how open and accepting the people employed by the church can be (deacons, priests, bishops,etc) and yet how narrow many of the parishoners are. <P>Snow<p>[This message has been edited by Snowwhite (edited August 27, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by outtathefog:<BR><B>long time lurker<BR>first time poster<P>my wife is having an EA/ possible PA with a man who claims to be of this Wiccan religion. i heard they cast spells and stuff. is this an evil religon or vodooism or paganism or something can someone please help me i fear for her well being</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>From my understanding, Wicca is a nature-based Neo-Pagan religion. Followers seek to emulate the spirit of some of the pre-Christian nature-based religions. While the holidays (like the Vernal Equinox, Winter Solstice, and Halloween) are taken directly from pre-Christian times, most if not all of the rituals and practices of Wiccans are of more recent origin. Very little is known about the rituals and practices of pre-Christian or pagan faiths merely because the Christian churches were very successful at wiping out these faiths (and many of the people who practiced them). So in that sense, Wicca isn't a pagan (meaning pre-Christian) religion, but rather a modern, neo-pagan religion clothed in the spirit of older faiths.<P>Is it an "evil" religion? Not any more than Christianity or any other faith. Religions in and of themselves are not "evil," but followers of ANY religion are capable of evil. In a little over a year on these boards, I've read of so many "Christian" people doing terrible things: Pastors having affairs, prayer groups rife with infidelity, church leaders fathering out of wedlock children, etc. Yet do I judge the whole faith on the actions of those who don't follow their own creed? Hardly.<P>Yet it <B>does</B> bother me to see such ignorance and intolerance on this matter. Lady Clueless even seems to be saying that intolerance is actually a hallmark of a good Christian! BTDT seems to be saying that anyone who isn't a Christian is in a cult! Yet intolerance toward a "fringe" religion is no less evil than intolerance toward an "established" faith. <P>For example, take outtathefog's post and replace the word "wiccan" with "Jewish." Then replace all subsequent references to wicca with "judaism."<P>That makes things look a little ugly, doesn't it?<P>Bottom line: outtathefog, there are plenty of people in every faith who do unsavory, immoral things. This man you speak of isn't a bad guy because he's a Wiccan, he's a bad guy because he's <B>having an affair with your wife!</B><P>