orchid....Where are you? I find it hard to believe that this posts which generated so much input has been overlooked by you. <BR>You know how this bunch of highly opininated yet caring group is......LOL..... Your input/response to our thoughts are of interest to us. <P>Hi, <BR>Just wanted to clear some potential confusion. The above quote is from my post to SNL, then SNL put it in his post and responded to that portion of my post. <P>OK, well SNL, if you and thinker are spending more time together, then I guess we forgive you for not spending so much time with us.... LOL . Really that is what we are here for, to improve, save or better our marriage relationships. <P>OW still a part of your life and always will be? Am I understanding that correctly? Hm..... It was a chapter in our life, for me one that I am not proud to have been a part of (I mean my H's A). Is it over yet? I would like to think so but right now, it is still going on...... and causing tremendous emotional damage. Not sure if it is repairable anymore. I am hurt SNL, heavy damaged. This all because of my H's A. Do you think it is worth it? Do you think she should be in our lives? I don't. Not if my life is in jeporady. And it is. Right now. <P>I am sending up these warning flags to let you all know how bad it can be. You see, I have always known that the one thing I would have a difficult time handling is a D. Why? Because I gave my love, heart and soul to my H. To have it ripped away, has put daggers in my heart. I am not sure if I can be saved anymore. That is what has happened. Is it worth doing that to someone you 'may not love' anymore? Is it worth doing that to your family? <P>I am not trying to put those questions on you personally, I am saying them to all in general to help all see where some of us 'bs' types feel and how we end up. Oh I know the simplistic answer is get over it L. That is what OW is saying. She can not believe I would want to save my marriage. I really don't want to save my marriage, I want my marriage to be saved by my H. But that may be asking for too much so the emotional damage continues. Just so 2 selfish (and known selfish) persons can have their fun.<P>Go figure.....<P>L.<P><BR>

Wow - there is so much anger on this board these days. I know I've done my share of harping on Sad n Lonely, but come on. Aren't we here to support eachother? Can Sun New Rising help on this issue as opposed to S-n-L? I thank SNL for his comments and understanding the mind of the WS and granted he can be annoying with his responses, but I think he is atleast trying to some extent or he wouldn't be here. We can't let all our lb'ing out on him (although with him, atleast we get a response as opposed to the majority of our spouses). Please don't stop posting SNL, I really do value your input.

Oh Orchid - I just read your post. Please understand that God loves all of us. How long have you been here? You are not what your WS defines. I am sure you are a fine person, given the fact that you are here and want to save your marriage. Please don't consider anything rash. We care so much about you. You CAN get through this! We are here for you!

I hope that you guys don't think that I dislike SNL for some reason, and that is why I was harsh in my post. But I can associate with his mindset because I've done those same things in my life. He and I are probably a lot more similar than either of us would like to admit. But I said what I felt needed to be said. <P>SNL, we all love you, and if we didn't care about you, we wouldn't spend this much time posting to or about you. I hope you don't feel discouraged and stop posting, but for some reason I think you're a bit more resilient than that

GodlyMan, <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So what is marriage to me? It's going to sleep, knowing that you aren't going to wake up alone, and cold, and without anyone to talk to. It's knowing that, in a year, a decade or half a century, that this person will still be by your side. No matter what life throws your way, this person will stand by you and help you through it.<P>If that doesn't sound attractive to you, then you shouldn't be married. You should go get into a relationship, and milk it for all you can, and if you get tired of it, or find someone better, trade her in for a newer model<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> Excellent Post GM. <P> SnL,<BR>You stirring up trouble again? <P> Orichid,<P>{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}}}}<P> jd<P><p>[This message has been edited by jdmac1 (edited August 29, 2001).]

Ok gm, not ignoring ya cause I am ticked or anything, these philosophic musings are hard for me, and I let em roll about in my head for awhile. <P>First, a general reply to all who are in the scriptural camp (gm, h2y, gdc, btdt etc.), and view marital issues somewhat legalistically...the Bible says such and such, so we must do it exactly such and such a way.... Is problematic, I too view God's word as authoritative, but but not man's word. I had never reviewed marital doctrine for myself preA, I just kinda absorbed the lessons of sunday school, church, and the Christian community, and blindly followed same (not only maritally, but in many ways). Is a seductive way to live, giving over our personal walk to our pastors, priests, and other folks with great "spiritual" presence. Relieves me of being responsible for myself, just be a follower, and walk right into heaven behind all these knowledgeable folks.....uh uh, don't work that way. No matter how "learned" these folks may be, they are all wrong, because they cannot have perfect understanding of God's word, in effect they are cult leaders if we do not think for ourselves. The difference may seem minute...but the consequences are huge. God Himself warns against this, not to worship icons, and to beware of satan's presence throughout the church. To listen to Him, to talk to Him, and one of the ways He communicates with us is through our heart, this is emphasized over and over and over throughout the Bible. I left Christianity as a young man, figuring it was a nice imagery about sound ethics.....and wandered in the wilderness for a fair amount of time, pretty much a wannabe atheist, although hedged my bets and labeled myself agnostic. <P>After a while I came to understand life is about choices, and sitting on the fence is not choosing, is reacting, so one will always be a step behind, and sooner or later the truck will run you over. I choose at that point to live my life proactively, make deliberate choices knowing I may make a wrong one. The first thing I did was put to rest the God question. I knew God did not exist, but I figured I had better prove that before living rest of my life as an atheist. Much to my surprise, I proved (using secular tools) to my satisfaction God had to exist (as in we are created beings of some kind, in a created universe), it was the best fit to all the discernible facts of our existence. THe task of discerning the nature of this God force is less precise, but the best explanation at hand is Christian (for lots of reasons). Having found myself at that place in my life, I now had the framework for my conduct, and there I remain. <P>Is not an easy way to live, cause one must constantly evaluate their life within that framework, and it gets confusing at times, especially when you start listening to others tell you how to "be" a Christian. Becoming complacent in the same old kneejerk reactions, mouthing the same old platitudes. Wondering if you are listening to God's plan for you, or the prideful plans of those who ply their pride in Christian garb. One of the things I like about MB is that though the Harley's are Christian, they recognize that human psychology is where the effort needs to be made, and they leave the spiritual considerations up to each of us...as they should. I have read most of the Christian marital self-help books, and for the most part they make me very uneasy. Too often it is about doing as I say, you will be a good Christian, and your marriage will work.....to me that is legalism, and to be avoided. The implication being if your marriage does not work, you are defective in some way...uh uh, I don't think so.<P>So I have studied the Scriptures myself, and human psychology, IMO the conclusion is irrefutable, marriage is not an absolute, the Bible does not demand it, and human psychology makes it clear that mating (as in who you mate with) is crucial to your success as a human being (in terms of survival). So all arguments (that use rote scripture) that reduce down to just stay married cause you are married are blatant icon worship (in that it worships the institution of marriage, rather than concerns itself with the well-being of the individuals in the marriage). That is not what God's message is to his childen at all in any other contect, so why we try to make marriage legalistic I don't know. I won't reopen the discussion (made elsewhere in one degree or another) re doctrine itself, except to make one point (also made elsewhere)....all marital doctrine depends on an assumption, that cause you have a marriage license, you are Scripturally married....this is clearly a fallacious assumption (easily proven). Where does that leave marriage? Where it should be, between you and God. No one can tell you what your status is, or what you should do about it, and no one can tell you what God precisely says about marriage, or what His plans are for you. So all arguments about what you SHOULD do (ie remain married) are prideful representations of those making them. What one "should" be doing is directing those desiring illunination to the Bible, helping them find the relevant stuff, and engaging them in productive discussion re same. Making it clear no one knows God's will in any matter, and ultimately we all have to have a talk with Him about these things. (Which btw I have been and am doing).<BR>My mind is not made up on these issues, cause I obviously recognize I can be wrong too, and strive not to be decieved by satan. But I also recognize satan is a master manipulator and can tempt in many ways, including keeping one in a marriage God did not intend. Keeping one focused on a legalistic version of Christianity, thereby denying one salvation....is hard stuff, both makes my head hurt, and scares me, but the work has to be done. I cannot let anyone else decide for me.<P>faith...But, all of these things involve commitment. You decide to do something - yes we all make mistakes and make wrong desicions, perhaps, but they are - NEVERTHELESS DECISIONS... upon which other people DEPEND. <P>snl...Yes, there are consequences. My decisions mean I am responsible for my w welfare for the rest of her life, but I can discharge all those duties as an X. What you cannot do is sacrificial marriage, it has to be a completely selfish decision, you cannot do it for anyone elses benefit or welfare (be married). That is a psychological truth. Just as valid as not jumping off high buildings cause you cannot fly is a physical truth. Any marriage based on sacrifice will fail, or is failing even if maintained. And is a huge violation of God's will re the nature of the marital bond. The problem is faith, your argument (and all the rest in their many guises) boils down to the same old thing, love is a decision...that is only partly true, it must be completed with a feeling, and that feeling cannot, will not, be forced, and will not come simply cause you want it too, or cause you apply MB principles. God did not make us all to fit each other the same.<P>faith...Oops, yes, people change their minds. OK. Do whatever you want!!! And a lot of people do. But, is it fair to the ones you made a promise to??? <P>snl..You mix up committment you can keep, with committment you cannot, one cannot promise to love someone forever if it is a feeling too. But if all you seek from marriage is a business contract, your argument works, harsh, but it works, a life sentence, no escape clause. If that is how we want to organise our species, the solution is simple. Divorce is not allowed, and affairs are punishable by death. Marriage is not fair, is not meant to be, is not about fair, cannot, should not, be fair. Fair is a legalistic notion, and is codified in our laws. Marriage (essentially mating) operates in a different venue, the venue of survival, of natural selection, there are no rules faith, there is only one standard, those who make the best choices live more successfully and their genes propogate more successfully, pushing the less successful genes from the gene pool. It would seem at this point in time, marriage as we practice it now is seriously flawed, I have my theories about that, cause it should not be a troubled institution. I think monogamy is the mechanism of choice for human success, but we need to do some work on it. Primarily it is far too easy to enter. And the notion of lifetime committment to love imposes an unrealistic and impossible expectation of the people involved, leading actually to more divorce, not less, as people become disilusioned about the reality of trying to gaurantee feelings.<P>faith...nope. not a bit. SOme people don't care about this. Some people do. Life is not fair. WHen my H had cancer, and I didn't want to fool with it - I could've walked away. Yep.. Do whatever I want. <P>snl...You did exactly what you wanted, we all do, we always do. It is how humans are made, when someone actually does do something they don't want to do, we call it mental illness and treat them. In your case your sense of duty and feelings dictated your response, the personal cost of leaving your husband under those circumstances was greater than the cost of staying, so you stayed. I am not trying to be annoying faith, but that is how it works faith, if it did not, your genes would have died out long ago, and you would not exist to make these arguments. The effort cannot be about convincing someone they should act in opposition to their feelings, but in giving them the information they need so they will develop different feelings, so they understand the different feelings are in their best interests. That is what MB strives to do. They say nothing about feelings directly, they say come to our boot camp, apply yourself, then do whatever feels good when you are done, they are psychologists, they understand that. They are betting on behavioural modification.<P>faith....No kids, rough marriage financially, only 5 years into it.... But no, I stood by his side, picked him up emotionally and physically. And now, he leaves me anyway. Fair?? nope. Oh well. He doesn't care what is fair. As long as HE is happpy. And I will get over it.<P>snl....Ok truth time here faith. IMO this illustrates why it is important to understand our internal filters (ala Dr. Phil)....You made an investment, and it seems to have had a poor return (although one can never really know, maybe staying earlier has made you a better survivor psychologically, and the long term payoff will be greater than it seems now). No one (probably even you) can unravel what might have been the absolute best choice, but in general your committment earlier feels good to most of us, so is probably an idicator was the right one. Now your H has chosen, that is his reality, you are simply experiencing a reality check, that you cannot ever control the outcome of a marriage, or another's feelings, you will learn from this as well. But if you go away feeling betrayed, that you were owed something, IMO that would diminish you. Although I am a no good for nothing ws, I do have feelings. I could easily allow myself to feel I have wasted my entire adult life on this ungrateful blah blah blah woman. No one could say I am wrong, if that was my feeling. And I won't lie, the "feeling" has occassionally floated through over last few years. But I do not dwell on it, yes it is a truth in some measure, but I choose to instead recognize other truths, no one made me do this, there were good things too, (especially 4 pretty good kids), and so forth and so on. I have no regrets whether thinker and I reconcille or not, and IMO that is the healthiest mindset for any marriage, take away the good (no matter how pitiful it may feel), learn, and continue to make the best of life.....be it a new relationship with old spouse, or a new life on a different path, and always, always, love yourself.<P>Is the real question: Are we supposed to stay in a love-less marriage? <P>OR<P>How can we add the love back into the marriage - that we committed to? <P>Most people, when they have those leaky pipes in the house, get them fixed. Most people, when their children misbehave, they discipline them - or otherwise learn how to live and work together. So, the marriage is broken. Hearts are broken. Vows are broken. Fix them.<P>snl...Ah faith, if it were only so easy. Run down to hime depot and get the fix marriage tools, but it ain't. Sometimes you tear down the house and start over (long as we are on analogies, there will always be the opposition interpretation). Sometimes you let your kids go, the discipline has failed, etc. etc. I know it is hard to argue the point, cause no one can prove it, but I belong to the camp which believes it does matter who you are married to, and that people can, and often do, marry the wrong person (as in wrong for each other, not bad people).<P>faith...Love? Yes, I love my H, even though he says he's not in love with me. Yes, I love my marriage, and want to stay married. Yes, I have made decisions in the past to love him - learn about him - accept him - even when my needs weren't being met. He promised me something 7 years ago - to always be there by my side. Yes, I want him to honor that promise. And try to "fix" what broke - not remain leashed around my ankle just for the sake of "vows". If vows mean nothing, then why is their an institution of marriage. Why don't we just sleep with, live with, give money to, anyone we want?? <P>snl...I feel for ya, life is a pit, and then you die as some point out. But in part is how we look at it. Your H proves the point, marriage is never a gaurantee, you can be angry (to make a point, not saying you are), upset, for rest of your life, or accept that vows really cannot gaurantee or predict future behaviour. Just focus on being the best person you can be, and accept that the security of vows is a fantasy, the real security is in your spouse choosing you everyday, cause that is where they want to be. I don't want vows made to me, I never did, I knew they were an ineffectual delusion, that people do not function that way. But I am what I am, a pragmatic realist, I abhor more than anything, kidding myself, and I work real hard at not doing so. I decided long ago to never expect anything from anyone, to let them do what they feel they must, and that I can choose to deal or not deal with it as I see fit. I slip up alot, get angry, and had a hard few first years of marriage due to expectations. But the experience cured me of expectations for the most part. Now she asks me what she can do to make me love (in-love) her, I have to tell her nothing. Just be who you want to be...all I ask is not to LB, if this stuff works then the rest will take care of itself, if it does not we will part. That is the decision part, to try, but the heart part, the passion has to come too, both ways, I will know if I am special or just the man feeling the husband slot.<P><BR>...snl before...So let me ask the question in another way. Do you believe in radical honesty, and if your spouse tells you he cares about you, wishes you no ill, would like to be very good friends (based on history, children, caring, etc.), but just is not crazy about you, and would prefer not to be married, but will stay and be dutiful if you insist.... would you hold them to the vow, or "lovingly" let them go?<P>faith...Yes , I would want him to remain committed to his vow, and we can live peacably and have a companion for life. Perhaps we should interview couples that have been married for 80 years and see what they say. I'm sure they hit a few rough patches along the way, and vows kept them committed during the rough times, until the love could be restored.<P>snl...You equivocated. I meant as a permanent solution, how long do you wait for restoration, and what if he never loves you that way...the point is, is a sacrificial marriage ok with you?<P>It is not with me. And actually (as Dr' PHil and most psychologists point out), sacrificial marriage (meaning you wouldn't be there if vowes etc. didn't bind you) is tantamount to emotional bondage. The thing is folks who propose vows to keep their ws, go further and require that the ws be enthusiastic about the vows, they don't see the utter absurdituy of that expectation. They are literally telling the ws to be someone other than who they are, your feelings don't count only mine (the bs) do..disrespectful judgements don't get any worse than that. <P>and question #2....If you felt that way (caring love, but not in-love) would you tell your spouse that, and that you feel no passion for them, and would not miss being married to them?<P>YES. I would tell my spouse my symptoms of my disease before it KILLED us. You know when you are bleeding internally - noone else does. If you TELL them, they can help you.<P>snl...Good, but then you are the cause of their unhappiness if you never come to feel any different....can you live a lifetime with that guilt? Looking in their eyes everyday knowing you don't love em, and them knowing it too, knowing you are only there out of duty? What does that do to people faith?<P>I will answer more of you later, thinker is getting after me, she doesn't care you all need my great wisdom.... (do I need to explain that hyperbole?).<P>

Faith: YES. I would tell my spouse my symptoms of my disease before it KILLED us. You know when you are bleeding internally - noone else does. If you TELL them, they can help you.<P>HbH: No faith, they can't always help. I couldn't help my husband, and I tried to the best of my ability... It was frustrating for both of us.<P>snl...Good, but then you are the cause of their unhappiness if you never come to feel any different....can you live a lifetime with that guilt? Looking in their eyes everyday knowing you don't love em, and them knowing it too, knowing you are only there out of duty? What does that do to people faith?<P>HbH: It turns them into my husband, that's what it does to people... If you figure out WHAT that is, please let me know. It crushes the inner soul of a person and brings them to depths you've never known. Both people. <P>I would not wish a life like that on anyone, now that I have lived it and realized how much it took away from both me and my husband... We were ignorant.<P>You should tell your spouse the way you feel, but ONLY if you put a plan together to try and rebuild your marriage. Living in a loveless, dutiful relationship for an extended period of time (with no hope to get out) is hell... for both people.<P>At least if there is hope, or you are working towards the goal of reconciliation, only then IT IS WORTH THE EFFORT...<P>HbH<BR>

I don't think I ever said that we are bound to a love-less marriage out of duty <B>for life</B>. If I came across that way, I apologize. No. That's not how I feel at all. What I said was, try to restore the love FIRST, before throwing away the marriage. If both parties honestly give it a fair shot at restoring the love, passion, care..... and it still cannot be restored, then by all means, get on with life. DOn't make yourself and everyone around you miserable for life. But I think the real thing is - the real reason we are all here at MB, is we don't feel like we have done everything we can to try to "fix the leaky pipes". BOth parties haven't been willing to restore - in some cases - and they may never be willing (like my H), but I'm willing to do my part for now. ya know? But I DO think, vows, commitment yada yada yada, are serious enough for each of us to grit our teeth, and make a DECISION - yes..... DECIDE to give it all we've got - with all the tools available - for a reasonable time period (i.e. Harley principles) before throwing in the towel....<P>

Hey faith, looks like we are pretty much in complete agreement. Vows do count, committment is important. But marriage must always be a choice, not a contract, and it must work for both parties. That is why I am here, I was done, MB pulled me back from the brink, for one more try.

SnL,<P>My answer to your questions would simply be this. I believe that the BS's, at least most on this board, believed when they got married that it was a committment for life. They believed those vows with all their heart. Whether or not they are religiously bound by those vows doesn't matter. Whether or not God wants us to stay married, regardless of our feelings, doesn't matter. The BS (even those who believe there are religious reasons to stick with it) simply BELIEVED with all their heart that the marriage would last forever, and BELIEVED with all their heart that they and their S would do whatever it took to assure that it lasted. I believe that the WS's here (those who are not immediately "repenting" - for lack of a better word) didn't really have that mindset when they got married. I believe they had doubts about the "until death do you part" portion of the vows. It is simply a difference in the way we were raised, or perhaps in your case, a self-awareness exploration into religion and morals. I think that the WS's that truly WANT to save their marriages believe the same as the BS's, that the marriage should be saved no matter what, but the WS's that "waffle" never were sure of those vows they said when they got married.<P>IMO, this answers the question, "do you stay married because it's simply the 'right' thing to do?" This answer takes away the "religious" arguments, and simply puts it to the individual's "morals", what the individual believes is right. I am a very religious person, or at least I try to be, but I am not going to try to drag someone in with me. It has to be a choice. If my H chooses to D me, I am at a point now where I can accept that. I will not move on until he makes that decision, and due to my faith and beliefs, I may wait quite awhile longer even after that. <P>I know for a fact that the vows I said were for life. I know for a fact that ALL married people fall in and out of love throughout their marriage, and that that is why we get married - so we can't just walk away. We can work through it. If you left Thinker for your OW, and you married your OW, I can almost guarantee you that she would do the same thing to you that she has done to her current H, or even you may do the same thing to her that you have done to Thinker. Let's be honest - look at statistics. What makes you think that your relationship with OW is any different than anyone else's relationship with OP. <P>If you asked many people who have been married for, oh, 30 years or more, if they ever fell "out of love" with their partner, I'm sure (if they were all honest) they could think of a time where they thought they were "out of love". And I can almost guarantee that they are "in love" with their spouses now, and just stuck with it<P>If you believe in "marriage", and you must to some degree, because you got married, then you have to believe it is a commitment that is different from any other out there. Otherwise, why get married? And if it is a commitment all its own, you have to do everything you can to save that marriage, even if it costs your own personal happiness for a time. If both partners are committed to making it work - it will get better, the love will come back - because both partners are DECIDING to wait for the love to come back. I once heard a psychiatrist (or psychologist?) say that, in order to have a successful marriage, sometime you have to focus solely on the marriage, and not on the feelings that go along with it. The marriage is overall what is important. The feelings will come and go, and change, and change back with time. The feelings will be good sometimes and bad sometimes, and love will come, and love will go, but it will come again if you focus on the marriage and not the feelings.<P>I believe love is a DECISION. If you look at it from this perspective: let's say you meet a woman. Let's say she does everything right in your eyes and you are totally "smitten" with her, and you feel like you are in love. Do you believe that if you wanted to, you could look for all her negative points and make yourself fall "out of love"? Well, of course you can. We can all make ourselves not love someone, so we can all make ourselves love someone the same way. Simply focus on ALL their good qualities, and take notice of the negative ones they are changing. The love will come - first it will be appreciation, then it will be respect, then it will be fondness, then it will be love. It's baby steps. But you have to open your mind and your heart to this philosophy, and, as Elad said, quit being so existential. Love and marriage are not that complicated - it's really quite simple. At least for the people that BELIEVE it is a committment for life. If you don't believe that committment, then it changes the picture completely.<P>TIG

Bumping...