I have been obsessed with this lately throughout various posts, so thought I might clarify here. There seems to be an undercurrent (maybe is just a misperception, will address that in a moment), that one must stay married to whoever they first married...of course everyone looks the other way if there is serious abuse blah blah blah, and each decides for themselves when divorce is ok for someone else...but that is just normal human nosiness.<P>I have asked repeatedly why do folks love someone, and frankly some of the folks who respond oft time sound much more like a dependentcy, or what they need from their spouse, or they just love em cause that is who they are married to...in other words they love the marriage, not the person, and any reasonably decent warm body would suffice. And maybe that is the truth, really doesn't make any difference, just accept who you have, follow the rules, keep your mouth shut, and if you have any feelings about not being happy go on zoloft or something.<P>So let me ask the question in another way. Do you believe in radical honesty, and if your spouse tells you he cares about you, wishes you no ill, would like to be very good friends (based on history, children, caring, etc.), but just is not crazy about you, and would prefer not to be married, but will stay and be dutiful if you insist.... would you hold them to the vow, or "lovingly" let them go?<P>and question #2....If you felt that way (caring love, but not in-love) would you tell your spouse that, and that you feel no passion for them, and would not miss being married to them?<P>Now in fairness, long ago (well 5 months or so), lostva, and a few others made it clear no one should stay married unless that is what they want. The argument being it is only fair to do the work first, before assuming you don't want to be married. The earn your divorce, and I agree. The problem is, this is a leeeetle open ended....fine you try...but for how long? When does the trying end? If it is a permanent try mode, then it is just a tricky way of binding a reluctant spouse to a marriage forever. So maybe alot of the advice here is really about the trying....decide to love, meet needs even if you don't want to, purge all op from your life etc. etc. and that is ok, but does confuse the issue. There are stories here of people who have tried, and just are not in-love, the advice is regularly just try a little harder, do a little more of this, you have a bad attitude. My problem is it seems prima facie evicdence you are defective, foggy whatever, if you don't want to be married...period. Where is the outcome of you just don't fit, you wish your mate well, they are a fine decent human being and a great mate (for someone, just not you), you just don't want to be married to em, and never will?<p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited August 27, 2001).]

SNL,<BR>ARE you married? If so what attracted you to your S? What parts of your S did you fall in love with?<BR>#1, I would loving let them go, If they really love you they will be back, I received a link from a friend about letting your loved one out of a trapped box that you built, and then they come back to you not feeling trapped and your marriage is already stronger once you open that trap door.<BR>#2, I would tell my H that this may hurt but I lost the feeling of love for you can you please help me find and restore it. <BR>That's what "His needs, Her needs" is for, to find out what you two are lacking and how to fix it. I can honestly say that since my H found this site and we work on the POJA that we are off to a better marriage. Maybe the two of you need to amke a list of what you like and love about each other. Good luck. Sherry

I know we can't compare ANYTHING in this world to marriage. Not a job, a business agreement, having children, starting a business, playing a game of tennis, performing surgery, buying a house, joining a church, running and being elected president, etc.... (The bible says for husbands to love your wives as Christ loves the church. If Christ looked at us sinners and gave up on us, where would we be? We sure deserve to be given up on sometimes - but He doesn't.)<P>But, all of these things involve commitment. You decide to do something - yes we all make mistakes and make wrong desicions, perhaps, but they are - NEVERTHELESS DECISIONS... upon which other people DEPEND. Can the president just walk away because it's not as fun as he thought? Can you just refuse to pay your mortgage because you have a few leaky pipes? Can you end your own life because you are unhappy? SURE. You can do ANYTHING in this life that you WANT. <P>Commitment. Honor. Integrity. Stuff that makes for a society in which we can all take each other for what they say. Oops, yes, people change their minds. OK. Do whatever you want!!! And a lot of people do. But, is it fair to the ones you made a promise to??? nope. not a bit. SOme people don't care about this. Some people do. Life is not fair. WHen my H had cancer, and I didn't want to fool with it - I could've walked away. Yep.. Do whatever I want. No kids, rough marriage financially, only 5 years into it.... But no, I stood by his side, picked him up emotionally and physically. And now, he leaves me anyway. Fair?? nope. Oh well. He doesn't care what is fair. As long as HE is happpy. And I will get over it.<P><B>Is the real question: Are we supposed to stay in a love-less marriage? <P>OR<P>How can we add the love back into the marriage - that we committed to? </B><P>Most people, when they have those leaky pipes in the house, get them fixed. Most people, when their children misbehave, they discipline them - or otherwise learn how to live and work together. So, the marriage is broken. Hearts are broken. Vows are broken. Fix them.<P>Love? Yes, I love my H, even though he says he's not in love with me. Yes, I love my marriage, and want to stay married. Yes, I have made decisions in the past to love him - learn about him - accept him - even when my needs weren't being met. He promised me something 7 years ago - to always be there by my side. Yes, I want him to honor that promise. And try to "fix" what broke - not remain leashed around my ankle just for the sake of "vows". If vows mean nothing, then why is their an institution of marriage. Why don't we just sleep with, live with, give money to, anyone we want?? <P>just my 2cents.... <P>snl... you know I value your opinions tremendously.. I've said it over and over.... just giving mine here.<P>ok, editing.... I guess I didn't answer your basic questions:<BR><B>So let me ask the question in another way. Do you believe in radical honesty, and if your spouse tells you he cares about you, wishes you no ill, would like to be very good friends (based on history, children, caring, etc.), but just is not crazy about you, and would prefer not to be married, but will stay and be dutiful if you insist.... would you hold them to the vow, or "lovingly" let them go?</B><P>um, I can't hold him to anything. Yes , I would want him to remain committed to his vow, and we can live peacably and have a companion for life. Perhaps we should interview couples that have been married for 80 years and see what they say. I'm sure they hit a few rough patches along the way, and vows kept them committed during the rough times, until the love could be restored.<P><B>and question #2....If you felt that way (caring love, but not in-love) would you tell your spouse that, and that you feel no passion for them, and would not miss being married to them?</B><P>YES. I would tell my spouse my symptoms of my disease before it KILLED us. You know when you are bleeding internally - noone else does. If you TELL them, they can help you.<p>[This message has been edited by Faith1 (edited August 27, 2001).]

I love my wife so much that if she would be happier not married to me I would let her go and wish her well. I do have two problems to this in my case. <P>First my wife has never said she doesn't want to be married to me, she's said she doesn't want to return to the life we've had lately. She can't bring herself to say the word Divorce or to do the filing herself. She wants me to do it because it's what's best, not that she WANTS it. Two different meanings in my book. She can't even say "Yes, this is what I want."<P>Secondly, I still believe in the premise of the "fog." She has only been gone 5 weeks and three days after she left she called me crying and saying how confused she was. That she was sorry about the affair, that it was stupid and that it wouldn't last. Has said several times she would always love me and in every contact we've had, even when she was angry, we blew kisses at each other. <P>So for me I'm not hearing that she doesn't love me, she's never said "not in-love," and she still hasn't grasped yet what a divorce will mean. She's in her little world, probably quite happy, but hasn't given me any reason to believe that she's thought about everything clearly enough to make a decision on divorce.<P>But, as I said before, if she can do the filing herself, not be wishy-washy about this being what she WANTS and tell me by looking into my eyes and say "this is what I want and I am going to be completely happy" then I wouldn't even drag my feet on the divorce.<P>For me I don't love our marriage. We got married really against either of our wishes, because we had family pressure to do so, no pregnancy, just a desire to start popping out grandchildren. I think we probably would have waited several years before getting married and would have been happier about it. I do not want a marriage to any warm body, I want my wife. She makes me feel like life is going to be great. We have a similar outlook on life and we've always been able to make each other laugh and feel good. It's really only the last couple of years that have been a problem, and that was simply drifting apart because I wanted to provide a better life, instead of providing more love. I screwed up, I admit my faults and I'm working to solve them. If we don't reconcile I'll be waiting a long time before getting married again, if ever. I don't need to be married to be happy. But my wife does make me happy. And I just want her to be as happy as she can, in our marriage or not.

snl...<P>I teach in a public school. <P>Take one look at the state of so many of these young kids today...and you will have the answer to your question.<P>Marriage was God's idea. <P>He gave us some pretty clear guidelines to follow to keep them healthy and safe.<P>He also gave some pretty clear warnings as to the dangers of disregarding his advice.<P>

SnL,<BR>The short answer or the long answer from me? Yes this is the short reply.. longer if you'd like. No interpetation really ... just read. Fume later.<P>Hebrews, chapter 13<BR>God Hates Divorce<P>4: Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled; for God will judge the immoral and adulterous. <P>Matthew, chapter 19<BR>God Loves the Marriage between a husband and wife from the beginning.<P>1: Now when Jesus had finished these sayings, he went away from Galilee and entered the region of Judea beyond the Jordan; <P>2: and large crowds followed him, and he healed them there. <P>3: And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?" <P>4: He answered, "Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, <P>5: and said, `For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? <P>6: So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder." <P>7: They said to him, "Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?" <P>8: He said to them, "For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. <P>9: And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery." <P>10: The disciples said to him, "If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is not expedient to marry." <P>11: But he said to them, "Not all men can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. <P>12: For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it." <P>13: Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people; <P>14: but Jesus said, "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven." <P>15: And he laid his hands on them and went away. <P>16: And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?" <P>17: And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." <P>18: He said to him, "Which?" And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, <P>19: Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." <P>20: The young man said to him, "All these I have observed; what do I still lack?" <P>21: Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." <P>22: When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions. <P>23: And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. <P>24: Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." <P>Matthew, chapter 5<BR>Adultery is sin and will condem you<P>27: "You have heard that it was said, `You shall not commit adultery.' <P>28: But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. <P>29: If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. <P>30: And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell. <P>31: "It was also said, `Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' <P>32: But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. <P>The Books of Proverbs, chapter 6<BR>Adultry creates a 'FOG' of no sense.<P>23: For the commandment is a lamp and the teaching a light, and the reproofs of discipline are the way of life, <P>24: to preserve you from the evil woman, from the smooth tongue of the adventuress. <P>25: Do not desire her beauty in your heart, and do not let her capture you with her eyelashes; <P>26: for a harlot may be hired for a loaf of bread, but an adulteress stalks a man's very life. <P>27: Can a man carry fire in his bosom and his clothes not be burned? <P>28: Or can one walk upon hot coals and his feet not be scorched? <P>29: So is he who goes in to his neighbor's wife; none who touches her will go unpunished. <P>30: Do not men despise a thief if he steals to satisfy his appetite when he is hungry? <P>31: And if he is caught, he will pay sevenfold; he will give all the goods of his house. <P>32: He who commits adultery has no sense; he who does it destroys himself. <P>33: Wounds and dishonor will he get, and his disgrace will not be wiped away. <P>Ephesians, chapter 5<BR>Adultery is Darknes, Darkness is Sin, Leave the Darkness<P>1: Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. <P>2: And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. <P>3: But fornication and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is fitting among saints. <P>4: Let there be no filthiness, nor silly talk, nor levity, which are not fitting; but instead let there be thanksgiving. <P>5: Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. <P>6: Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. <P>7: Therefore do not associate with them, <P>8: for once you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light <P>9: (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), <P>10: and try to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. <P>11: Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. <P>12: For it is a shame even to speak of the things that they do in secret; <P>13: but when anything is exposed by the light it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light. <P>14: Therefore it is said, "Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give you light." <P>15: Look carefully then how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, <P>16: making the most of the time, because the days are evil. <P>17: Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. <P>18: And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery; but be filled with the Spirit, <P>19: addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with all your heart, <P>20: always and for everything giving thanks in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God the Father. <P>21: Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ. <P>22: Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. <P>23: For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. <P>24: As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands. <P>25: Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, <P>26: that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, <P>27: that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. <P>28: Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. <P>29: For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church, <P>30: because we are members of his body. <P>31: "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." <P>32: This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church; <P>33: however, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband. <P>1 Thessalonians, chapter 4<BR>Take your wife with Holiness and Honor<P>1: Finally, brethren, we beseech and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you learned from us how you ought to live and to please God, just as you are doing, you do so more and more. <P>2: For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus. <P>3: For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from unchastity; <P>4: that each one of you know how to take a wife for himself in holiness and honor, <P>5: not in the passion of lust like heathen who do not know God; <P>6: that no man transgress, and wrong his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we solemnly forewarned you. <P>7: For God has not called us for uncleanness, but in holiness. <P>*********<BR>Regardless what stage the affair is in.. Take your wife as Jesus took you blemished and unholy, unpure and with sin. Jesus wrapped his loving arms around you when you became a christian SnL and accepted you with your faults and transgressions. Wrap your arms around your wife and hold her as Christ holds you. Regardless where your love is.. with God's help through Christ, this marriage will be restrored.<P>Now SnL.. I'm going to be lovingly hard on you.. but please believe me.. that it is OUT of love for which I speak to you.<P>I, SnL, take thee, Thinker, <BR>to be my wedded wife, <BR>knowing in my heart that you will be <BR>my constant friend, <BR>my faithful partner in life, <BR>and my one true love. <BR>On this special and holy day, <BR>I affirm to you <BR>in the presence of God and these witnesses<BR>my sacred promise to stay by your side as your faithful husband <BR>in sickness and in health, <BR>in joy and in sorrow, as well as <BR>through the good times and the bad. <BR>I further promise to love you without reservation, <BR>honor and respect you, <BR>provide for your needs as best I can, <BR>protect you from harm, <BR>comfort you in times of distress, <BR>grow with you in mind and spirit, <BR>always be open and honest with you, <BR>and cherish you for as long as we both shall live. <P>SnL, I know from reading your posts that your a man of your word. If your marriage has suffered in sickness, in harm and in distress, and sorrow, Thinker is still the loving wife that you married all those years ago. You both stood the tests of time and made precious memories to with one another. You promised her as she did you to take this journey now matter how fair the seas were or weren't. You both have endured so much over the years. A flower as beautiful as the relationship you both have shared is dwindeling before your very eyes, and only God can bring the life back to restore the fragrent love that you two shared together.. but you both have to be willing to try.<P>You are losing your wife, the flesh tears from God's hands above as you are becoming not one... but two. <P>All things are possible through him that trusts the Lord Jesus. You trust Jesus with your life and salvation, now give your marriage up to him.<P>Open your eyes, your heart and your arms.<P>Semper Fidelis (Always Faithful)<P>Yours,<BR><P>------------------<BR>Semper Fi,<P><B>Husband2You</B><BR>*****<BR><I>···In the valley of the blind the one eye'd man is King···</I><P>· E-mail: <B> husband2you@petroleum.org </B> · ICQ: <B><A HREF="http://wwp.icq.com/1206499" TARGET=_blank>1206499</A></B> · Formerly: <B>E m p t y</B> ·

Hi SNL,<P>The question should be: Why stay married? Why be married is a choice when you are single. Why stay married, is a commitment along with many other requirements that also involve emotional, financial, spiritual and moral support. <P>Here we go......from a human point of view, yes leave and follow your heart..... hmmm....... sounds like a sick love song. <P>From a godly point of view: <P>"Safeguard your heart for out of it are the sources of life." (Proverbs)<P>"The heart is more treacherous tahn anything else and is desparate. Who can know it?" (Jeremiah)<P>Want to stop there? The Bible goes further, in vs 10 of Jeremiah 17 it states that God is the one who searches the heart and examines the kidneys. Why? To give to each one according to his ways, according to the fruitage of his dealings. Hm...... kidneys? Yes, deeper than the heart are the innermost feelings deep down even in the kidneys.<P>What other sane counsel is given? "what God has yoked together, let no man pull apart." (Matthew)<P>So even in view of the heavenly counsel, some think, oops I married the wrong person. So it will be ok to break my vow and God's law. The OP second's that motion. Now you have not 1 violator but 2. In turn not just affecting 2 but 3,4, 5,6,7....... The wave of destruction spreds out with a rippling affect. Soon the whole world is engulfed with this this..... with this sin...... <P>Oh yea, you don't believe the Bible? It is a man's book or with a man's interpretation? Hm..... Well is the effect real? Is this world in turmoil because of the break down of many families today? YES! <P>What is the answer? Follow your heart? That is what the OPs says to do. Is that what you would tell a rapist or mass murderer? Follow your heart? NO. <P>For those in a wayward course, the right way is to find the help that will benefit you for what is right. Benefit for what is right does not mean to satisfy one's selfish interests ahead of others. Others meaning one's family, one's responsibility and one's obligations. <P>Where does that then leave one's heart? It leaves them to learn to readjust their heart and direct it back to where the love really belongs. Someone steered us away (our selfishness or someone else), someone better can steer us back. <P>But some, knowing it is wrong, stupid and evil will still leave all behind and take the plunge into their wickedness. For those who choose to, know and understand that you hurt all lives you touch including your own. If you can live with that knowledge and pain, then who will stop you? No one. Because you are bent on destruction. Destruction of the family unit and now become a great supporter of the one who makes it his aim to break up families. Remember who put the man and woman together? Then remember who worked to break up that relationship. <P>The family unit has God's blessings, the Devil's aim is to break it. <P>You decide. SNL, this is a very sensative point for me now. I will share more on that later. Don't be foolish, don't make a choice you will regret or can't fix. Don't go past the point of no return. Please.... <P>L.

S_N_L,<BR>You know I have followed you and your W's journey with much interest, as it seems to "mirror" my H's mindset.<P>However, you are both beginning to get on my nerves! I have said, and STILL believe that you two "push each other's buttons!!" I am beginning to think that you like living this way, and cannot (or WILL NOT) stop living this way, and therefore this serves some (unbalanced) need both of you have - for what? control? I don't know. Maybe you have a clue.<P>Having "scolded" you thusly, I'd like to move to my main point...namely that I was told once many years ago that "any two people can be happily married." I didn't think too much about that, or believe it at the time. I believed there was "one person" for each of us. I thought (think?) I have found mine, and will fight to keep it that way. However, when I came to MB site, and read and understood about the concepts here, I could see how "any two people <B>could</B> be happily married."<P>It's really all about <B> meeting each others' needs</B> PERIOD. If ANY two people do that, they can stay happily, <I>romantically</I> and <B> passionately</B> married. I think that is the "step" you are STUCK on....you want the <B> passion.</B> I don't blame you. We ALL want to be wanted, needed, lusted after <I> passionately.</I><P>The SAA book describes it beautifully. During an A what was seemingly dead for so long, is awakened, and we feel "more alive" than we have for a very long time. That's the <B>passion</B> you felt, want to feel again.<P>THAT PASSION IS NOT what makes a M. It is the "commitment" each partner makes to the other. It is the vows, the "man-made" civilized laws of our land and humanity that make us marry. BUT I believe it is the need for the <B> passion</B> that keeps us together, or ultimately drives us apart.<P>There was a thread on Emotional Needs (I think it was there) the other day about "What guys give up to be married," and the best answer I read was a guy who said, "Women <B>have</B> what guys want, so we don't give up ANYTHING, really! We'll do anything for that." That's it!!! That's the key. The S-E-X, the passion, the feelings. And they can all be there with WHOEVER you want, as long as you FEED THEM BY MEETING THE EN's of that person. So, once you have made the "commitment" to a spouse, might as well meet THAT person's EN's so the passion stays alive. <P>I hope you and Thinker can decipher what it is you're both not hearing about what each needs that causes you to continue hurting (instead of helping) each other.<P>Lupo

SNL,<P>I would like to quote the various versus in the bible that address marriage, adultry and divorce but the others have stole the thunder. <P>Here's my opinion, I think that marriage is taken far too lightly in our era. Too many people go into marriage thinking if it doesn't work out then well get divorced and move to something better. I think our society has created this problem mainly through tv, news, media and internet. All of these regard sex as something that doesn't matter. Think about all the problems in the world that stem from sex alone. Homosexuality, beastialty, abortion, incest, rape/murder, lesbianism, and of course adultry and divorce just to name a few. Some of these things are condoned by society and some are not however all of these are not condoned by God. <P>So to answer your question, would I let somebody out of marriage vows if they stopped loving me, in an in love way.<BR>I would have no choice, but I would remind them that they did take a vow in front of God and that should be honered no matter what and I would fight for it.<BR>I like what Faith said about the leaking pipes, great analogy, fix it! Don't take the easy way out. My Wife recently told me that leaving was just as hard as staying and I totally disagree. Leaving is the easy way out and people that run from problems rather than face them head on do this. This is a lack of character, itegrity and commintment. They only trade one set of problems for another and the pattern is created and can even be passed to children and other family members. <P>This world is filled with sexual sin and it should be stopped. When our very own president commint adultry, what kind of message does that send our children who are not yet married? Big strong and face the issues first before having an A!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<P>I hope that this makes some sense to you SNL. My .2 cents.<BR>GC

Everybody goes through phases where they don't feel "in love." Where did you get the idea that a successful marriage has to have "passion?" Maybe for the first year or three, but after that it settles into a deeper, more intimate, CALM, MATURE love. [even dogs go out of heat when they get older!] Sounds like you have been watching too many chick movies on A&E, snl, and are looking for a fantasy marriage.

Dear S&L:<P>You do love a good fight don't you...why not just ask if there is anything wrong with having an affair...you'd be flamed just about as bad.<P>You seem to think there something magical about that term "in love"....well there's not...teenagers often fall "in love" several times a month. Don't we question how limited their experience is and say "there's more fish in the sea". And adults are not that much more circumspect about their choices of whom to be "in love" with. It's not the "in love" feeling that is important....we can have that with many people...it's what happens after that feeling wears off that's important....is this person we have chosen the kind of person we want or "can" spend a lifetime with. <P>With time we deepen "in love" to true love, seasoned and tested by the rigors of life together. Sure it may not always have the passion that "in love" (as that ebbs and flows with time) but it's based on a level of commitment and togetherness that no mere "in love" situation can ever reach. <P>I'm afraid following your line of reasoning you will set yourself up to be one of those individuals who is constantly seeking that "in love" level of relationship...and as each one evolves into something else you will pursue another relationship to sustain that "in love" feeling again and again. Sure it feels great...that's the way nature planned it so that we would connect long enough for nature to have its way (procreation) and then when mother and child are sufficiently established...move on. We have moved past what nature wants from us haven't we...and we gave up some of what is "natural" for us for the benefits of civilization. Don't ask us to take a back step now. <P>If I had to chose between having a person love me and be commited to me and one who was just "in love" with me then I know which one I would choose. They are not the same.<P><BR>Faye<P><BR>

SnL,<BR>You pose some questions that will provide wonderful conversations, but I don't think there will be hard and fast answers for them. Of course we're all human, and a million different quirks and situations can really sway the opinions different ways. Let me give you the abridged version of my story, then I will do my best to give you my opinions.<P>Married at 20, 3 kids, divorced at 30. Infidelity was the cause..him PA, me revenge EA. Both good people, good parents, and in retrospect..could have been a good lifetime marriage. Had a MC who more or less said, "well hey, you can't trust each other, go start anew". We had families and friends who more or less said the same thing. My parents were more concerned we stay together "for the kids", no one could answer the statement we both made .."I love him/her, I'm not in love." and we divorced. I do think with different guidance, and TIME...MORE TIME..that marriage could have worked out pretty well. Fact is, divorce is now common-place and people are considered fairly disposable.<BR>Met current partner at 31, entered into a committed relationship at 32. Both married before...his was a very controlled marriage, much like you described yours. Left for another woman and found "control" can be passive or aggressive. Both of us gun-shy on the subject of matrimony, decide "we don't need that piece of paper, our love will keep us together"....and things went along beautifully till 2 years ago when life kicked in with jobs, kids, dad-to day crap, and eventually taking for granted. I'm now 45, he's 60 so, as I said in another post, perspective is different.<P>Many similarities, both 10+ year relationships, one is "legal" one is not. Loved both men deeply...different but deeply. Had children with one, raising with the other.<P>So, to your questions.<BR>Why do/did I love them? Well, I don't know why..I know I did. In Love vs comfortable love...yup, had with both, passion with both. With both, as with all relationships, the passion waxes and wanes. Not dependant on either for my economic lifestyle, outside interests. So why try so hard to keep this relationship vs the last one. I really don't know...I did feel like I could've done more the first time around..we should have tried something else..maybe a different counselour, or even a web site like this one. The atmosphere was disposable, if that makes sense. Divorce was common place. In contrast, because I'm not married to the 2nd man (current partner), friends and relatives think I am nuts to try to reconcile. It's probably the personal feeling that I didn't check out all the options first time around that keeps me here. I don't want to walk away with regrets.<P>SnL>"So let me ask the question in another way. Do you believe in radical honesty, and if your spouse tells you he cares about you, wishes you no ill, would like to be very good friends (based on history, children, caring, etc.), but just is not crazy about you, and would prefer not to be married, but will stay and be dutiful if you insist.... would you hold them to the vow, or "lovingly" let them go?"<P>T>hmmm, well, in effect, that's what happened first time around..we just let each other go. That was also my second partner's thinking, on and off, (?fog) with this relationship, but we agreed, for the sake of friendship and deep caring for each other to give it some time before recommitting....we decided on 90 days of no contact and a vague "try to work it out" so we could either let go as friends or recommit. (His OW, as much as I hate to admit it, is not a bad person and I'm sure she loved him a lot. He also told me at Dday, that he loved her...I think his exact words were "I'm in love with her, but love you) He saw the wisdom, after a few false starts, of the No Contact rule if for nothing more than to try to fix one thing before getting a new one)<P>Well, after 90 days, things were better..not perfect..but better than either of us had hoped for. The only real "plan" we had during this time was simply no LB's and spend some time together..(See other post "Would you rather...")<P>Well, got to rambling here..but just my 2 cents....<BR>T<P>

Wow....SNL, in my opinion, everyone has their own beliefs and everyone should follow their instincts. To me...it seems that there is only one judge, or maybe two, in your character and actions. In a marriage there are 3, if you believe in God. <P>Most everyone's post involved the Lord's word. I think that maybe those who fear God are those who fear that they will be punished for leaving their marriages. It also says in the bible, since I hit that subject, that infidelity is grounds for divorce, but then remarriage is forbidden if divorce be the choice. <P>Some just don't want to leave and then find that they are wrong in that choice and turn around to go back, but it's too late. Then I think that some just are afraid to start all over. Some just can't leave depending on circumstances.<BR>The list goes on.<P>When is it okay to call it quits? I believe when you've done everything you could possibly do to make it work. You can't make your spouse do things they don't want to do. I have learned that here on the Site. It gives me comfort for some reason. I have also learned that it takes two for a marriage to work. <P>Everyone is their own person and we all have our own situations. So, if you think it is okay to leave or to stay, it is your choice. We all have to figure out what it is we want first, right? You make the plan and then take the steps to execute that plan. If you want the fantasy marriage, then so be it. Heck, I want the fantasy marriage.<BR>There is nothing wrong with that. <P>So.....if you do everything to meet your H or W's needs and it still doesn't work for one or the other, I feel atleast you tried. You stay married because those met needs give you the feeling of love. When they are not met, you feel out of love. So, what are you willing to do to get it back?<BR>Then do it. Take a step back and look if you have to. <P>I need to walk away even though I love my H and want to be married. I have to cause I can't live the way we are living. I can't stay and constantly be disrespected and lied to. I can't help my H. All I can do is meet his needs. He has to do the rest. He must meet my needs too or I am not willing to go on the way we are. So, I think everyone has their limit. What is yours? You are your own judge. Fear is ruthless, isn't it? Clouds

Having watched my mother in three marriages...and my father in two... having watched multiple divorces among cousins aunts and uncles...I too asked this question when I was younger (18-23)...I did not see a point to marriage except as an economic contract...because in America, that is all it really serves...<P>So why do we marry? Why do we have children. For some, there are religious reasons, for some sociological reasons, for some it is both...why did I want to marry?<P>I love my H passionately...I wanted to create a family with him...I feel that children deserve the commitment and safety that a two-parent marriage can provide (remember that I did not have this from age 10 on)...<P>When we married, I felt I was clear that I wanted to be a 'family' with my H...I wanted to be a partner...he even remembers that I said 'we would be good together.' However, don Miguel Ruiz, in his books would say that we humans are 'domesticated' poorly and that love becomes obligatory and filled with expectations. That we are conditioned to 'fight' for control over one another...that, as newwoman wrote in her post to you, we don't love ourselves and we look for others to complete us with their love...which they cannot because they don't completely love themselves either...<P>Now be radically honest with yourself SnL...there is nothing you doubt about yourself? there is nothing in yourself that you 'secretly' fear others will discover...including your W? Maybe you feel that she does know you 'too well,' and that because you haven't fulfilled your expectations of yourself and her expectations of you that you 'no longer fit.' that it is easier to find someone who does fit...<P>But human condition/domestication patterns are against you...the OW and you seem like a fit (and you probably are...)...but look at the pattern of affairs and people with multiple divorces....unless you fundamentally change yourself and the way you think and feel about yourself, you continue to repeat the pattern WITH WHOMEVER...including a spouse in recovery...including an OP with whom you continue a relationship into reality...<P>THE ONLY PERSON THAT MUCH CHANGE FOR YOU TO 'FEEL' BETTER IS YOU...Love yourself and you will have love left over to share with another...love is not given...it is shared...<P>Now to the other part of your questions...to stay married...if after having changed my habits and expectations and 'the way I love,' if my H continues to want to 'stay' outside our marriage...I must give him that freedom...I must say thank you...but I love myself too much to have a relationship with you that is painful...<P>I can accept pain or not...that is my choice...I can set boundaries or not...again, my choice...BUT WE CANNOT SEE THE FUTURE...I need to give my changes a chance to see HOW the new me fits with my H...and I need to give him a chance to absorb those changes...if he still needs to leave so be it...<P>But the pattern of an affair is on my side....all you have to do is read the posts...affairs die...WS's start to doubt themselves...TIME is on my side....<P>This got away from me...I hope it is understandable...I really think you could benefit from reading the Ruiz books...they have been mind-altering for me.<P><BR>Cali<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

Snl, <P>Where are you? I find it hard to believe that this posts which generated so much input has been overlooked by you. <P>You know how this bunch of highly opininated yet caring group is......LOL..... Your input/response to our thoughts are of interest to us. <P>L.

orchid....Where are you? I find it hard to believe that this posts which generated so much input has been overlooked by you. <P>You know how this bunch of highly opininated yet caring group is......LOL..... Your input/response to our thoughts are of interest to us. <P>Jeez, I can't be on the boards all the time (much as I like to talk and debate). Been with thinker last 5 hours, we pretty much go everywhere together now, (as opposed to hardly ever preA). Part of that 15+ hr a week thingy. So she goes on service calls alot, we went to comp usa, and then to home depot...don't know it that qualifies for recreational companionship or not. You may be interested to know we vigorously debated this issue for a good part of the time, but without any LB or getting mad, although got a little heated from time to time. i am pretty tired, so may not post much more tonight, was up to 5am last night. Thinker has mixed feelings re board, says I post to much, should get more done. I tell her is useful toward resolving stuff too, but when queried she iadmits really is afraid I will meet another ow on-line. I knew this, it is a curse and a blessing to know what others are thinking and feeling most of the time. I start to try and take care of both sides (me and them) and end up all messed up. I try to tell her will not happy again, this ow is part of who I am now, but I also now know how such things happen, and it cannot happen again, cause I will not allow it. I ask her if she trusts me, she says no, can't really blame her though. I now post in the bedroom, she is sleeping now a few feet away, but can look over anytime she feels the need to see what is going on.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited August 27, 2001).]

SnL--Orchid is up there--you overlooked her post!!! Go see! <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B>So let me ask the question in another way. Do you believe in radical honesty...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, but I wouldn't tell him that his baby is ugly--whatever his "baby" is. You know how you men are with your pet projects... I would try to find something positive to say and be as honest as I possibly could. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B>...and if your spouse tells you he cares about you, wishes you no ill, would like to be very good friends (based on history, children, caring, etc.), but just is not crazy about you, and would prefer not to be married, but will stay and be dutiful if you insist.... would you hold them to the vow, or "lovingly" let them go?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>OH, put it on ME by saying if *I* insist? What do I look like, a prison guard??? Do me a favor. Here's the key! Set YOURSELF free from jail! In fact, I'll walk you to the door!<P>Thank God I don't believe my husband will ever say that to me, but if he ever does--I'll let you know I'm eating my words...<P>Seriously, I would try to find out why he's not crazy about me? And, is it ME or is it my appearance or my behavior? If it is something I could improve, then I would ask God to change me and ask my H to be patient while the transformation takes place. If it is something about me that I cannot change (genetically and temperamentally, etc.), then my H is not accepting me. H desiring to change something about me that I cannot alter is not accepting me, which to me, is not fair in any relationship.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B>and question #2....If you felt that way (caring love, but not in-love) would you tell your spouse that, and that you feel no passion for them, and would not miss being married to them?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sounds like *I* had a lot of doubts before I said "I DO" in the first place? Which would not be me in this situation because I had NO DOUBTS when I got married. I knew he was THE ONE I wanted to be with for the rest of my life. I can't speak for H, but I know where I stand on my "no doubt" decision-making agenda. He knows I had no doubts because I told him and he told me the same thing. So far, so good. Sometimes that is the only thing that has held us together--knowing that each other is THE ONE.<P>IF I EVER got to the point where I felt the passion lifting, we would have to do something immediately to get it back. BUT, we couldn't "get it back" if it was never there...<P>IF I felt like I was living with a buddy and not a lover... Nah, SnL, I can't even imagine that! I would simply not let it even START to look like that. There is no way that could happen because I would not allow it, at least not on my part.<P>GOD is love... That kind of love is unconditional. That kind of love has different facets that transcend the circumstances. To see someone as valuable and precious and simply love them because that is how God loves them means we have the capacity to love ANYONE! If I got to the point where I felt I wasn't in love with my TRUE LOVE??? I would have to ask God to SHOW ME HOW to love this person like HE intended for me to love them as their wife. Period. We would have to jumpstart the thing or else admit we made a mistake. It would have to be a 200% effort, tho.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B>Where is the outcome of you just don't fit, you wish your mate well, they are a fine decent human being and a great mate (for someone, just not you), you just don't want to be married to em, and never will?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>SnL, what DO you want? Do you even KNOW?? And anyways, why should God give you another blessing, just so you could complain about it???? Wake up!!!<P>God has blessed you with a terrific family and you are seemingly soooooo ungrateful. If it were not for your wife, you would not have those wonderful kids that you mentioned... That's something to be grateful to God for your wife about, huh?<P>Your kids are in college and not strung out on drugs or in trouble with the law, right? Another blessing! You and thinker both have your physical health, right? See, something else to thank God for! You can breathe without assistance from a machine? ANOTHER blessing!<P>Start counting your blessings SnL before you squander the future ones with your unthankful attitude. If you were my husband and you said that to me, you could walk and I would be okay just knowing that I was not to blame for your misery. Then when you got 'out there'--all alone--you could realize that you were already miserable and it wasn't my fault after all! <P>Contentment and thankfulness is a quality you could benefit from cultivating. You HAVE a good life. <P>{{{{{hugs/prayers for you and thinker}}}}}<p>[This message has been edited by BINthereDUNthat (edited August 28, 2001).]

This has been one of the most interesting posts I have read. I was a true believer in marriage, now my thoughts have changed. I do still believe that marriage is a great concept for those who have the values, willpower and tenacity to make it work. Unfortunately we are humans and most of us are not capable of really doing it right. From all that I have read here in MB, most people are trying to save marriages that maybe are just not meant to be for whatever reasons. I have this year come to the conclusion that after being married for 8 years I just now have begun to know my wife and I do not like what I see. I have tried many of the MB principals but if her value system and personality are not open to these concepts, how much more can I really do? We have a family and the real casualty will be them but it is impossible to remain together for this reason alone. Within the next few months I plan to calmly move ahead with the divorce and hopefully have the serenity within me to wish her the best with her lover.

Good Grief. I've tried to keep my comments to myself, because most of you mean well in what you say, but I am tired of hearing things like "What if it wasn't meant to be?" or "Should I be married?" or other lame hypothetical questions that really don't have an answer. <P>What is marriage anyway? Is it something you even believe in? No! Marriage is commitment. If you just want a relationship without all the commitment mumbo-jumbo, then go shack up with whatever person makes you happy that week. <P>So what is marriage to me? It's going to sleep, knowing that you aren't going to wake up alone, and cold, and without anyone to talk to. It's knowing that, in a year, a decade or half a century, that this person will still be by your side. No matter what life throws your way, this person will stand by you and help you through it.<P>If that doesn't sound attractive to you, then you shouldn't be married. You should go get into a relationship, and milk it for all you can, and if you get tired of it, or find someone better, trade her in for a newer model. <P>But that newer model might not be what you expected. Looked nice from the outside, but underneath, maybe your old model was better. Yeah, but now you've let it go. Or maybe the new model is better. Who cares? You've made your choice. No refunds or exchanges. Unless they leave you. But if they are still willing to live with you, then you stick with it. The new model will move out of your life and you'll forget it.<P>Do I know what I'm talking about? No. This is all just straight from my heart. <P>My wife has betrayed me, then lied and said she came back and won't betray me again, and then betrayed me again, several times. Most of you have been through the same crap. So maybe I should get rid of this model? Hmmmmm... philosophically speaking, should I be married? In the cosmic scheme of things, <I>should</I> I just *lovingly* let my wife go and be with this other man, who obviously makes her happy??<BR>Who cares if I should or shouldn't??!! I don't. All I know is I still love her. I want to grow old with her. And I don't know if she wants to be with me or not, but I am going to try my darndest to make it that way.<P>What I'm saying is this... don't overdo the philosophy. Don't worry what other people think. Search your heart and figure out what YOU want. And once you figure it out, then to heck with everything else, and just go for what you really want. The planets aren't going to go out of alignment. The sun will rise again. And you'll find happiness again someday.

Hi. I had this HUGE post, all enlightened and cool stuff, then I lost it.<P>So, I guess it was not meant to be since I can't remember any of it. Darn. <P>my reply was just more of what others had posted here. I would not make my husband stay and I have "let go" 3x already over the last few months. It's hard, but necessary...<P>I wouldn't want to be with someone that doesn't want to be with me. However, with that said, I would also HOPE that my spouse would care enough about me to try and get back what we had when we were first married. I mean, the feelings DID exist, and it is possible to get them back, but it takes alot of time and hard work...<P>I would actually propose that you DO set a time limit. 12-18 months, but don't tell Thinker about it, k? In that time, you do EVERYTHING, and I mean EVERYTHING in your power to rebuild your love for your wife. Do the MB principles, and NEVER, EVER look back. Don't say This won't work, or I give up, or anything negative, not even in posts to others... In a year, review where you are in your life and if you truly have gotten no where, then maybe it is time to move on, but not before that. <P>I know that sounds tough, but you owe it to yourself. Not to thinker, to yourself. YOU need to know that you did everything you could to save your marriage and get back the love/friendship that you once had with thinker. Otherwise, I don't think you could truly be happy not being married to her, no matter what you say on the outside, you NEED to know, am I right?<P>HbH