Lighthouse, may I ask a few questions, your circumstances fall into some of the areas I have difficulty with. Like you my ow never acted in any way (other than loving me, and acting on that) to seperate me from my wife. Some say that is the same thing, it is not, and you (and the other ws's with ethical op) know what I mean. Nor did I, but I was firm about holding her H accountable for what amounts to neglect and emotional abuse (he is a very selfish man). I was ready willing an able to assist her in working on her marriage, and did direct her here. Sge (like I) felt after 20+ years was hopeless, and just let sleeping dogs lie. But I digress..<P>1. Have you ever met the ow?<P>2. Do you believe in sacrificial marriage?<P>3. If ow became single (for whatever reason) would that be hard for you?<P>4. Do you believe your wife is "in-love" with you, or is it the sort of I love you cause you are my husband stuff?<P>5. If your wife wanted a divorce (amicably, just no longer wanted to be your wife) would you fight for her, or let her go? (do not factor in kids if you have any, just answer for you)<P>6. Are you "in-love" with your wife, or feel only a deep abiding caring for her? (and you know what I mean I think).<P>7. How often do you think about ow?<P>8. Why have you not told your wife the whole truth?<P>Thanks, if you prefer not to reveal yourself ok (or do not like any kind of analysis directed at you). But I would find your responses helpful. The abiding question for bs and ws alike in affairs that are of the heart, is how in the world do you deal with it. On one hand, true love should be actualized, but on the other hand are so many roadblocks of various kinds. The path sometimes seems clear, and everyone has an opinion, but I have come to believe things are rarely as they seem, or should be. And only through a lot of work, and introspection will truth be found. Too often I feel the simplistic answers are inadequate, and one of those is the simplistic if you love someone (op) you will just remove yourself (totally) from their life..... that is not always right, in fact I doubt if it is ever right, stated in that manner.

snl...<P>Just saw this post...will have to address those questions tomorrow morning...first thing. Just finished responding to hopeless.<P>I think it's about time to start a WS forum here. I hate adding to the already unbearable pain so many BS's have here. I don't want to be a poison that infects them.<P>Sorry can't write more now...may have a chance later this evening...<BR>until then...<P>lighthouse<BR>(trying to be a beacon of warning for others...as well as a ray of hope that there is solid ground nearby.)

I am soooo irritated with you. Get off the friggin computer, quit communicating with the married op, and go hold your wife. OR, if you think the grass is greener, go!!!! I have looked up her and yours old posts...been off for a few months thinking I graduated, but no, and I can't believe your attitude. sorry.. steamed at the moment.

....Ewo...I can see you are steamed, not sure why (at me?, your h? or life in general). But anyways I am not communicating with ow (status is no contact), and the stuff I post here is how I am going about trying to find my way, sorry if it touched a nerve. thinker is about 2 feet away at moment on another comp, so if I get off all I can do is go watch TV.....(but I understand your point, wish life were that simple).

Quick station break..<BR>Lighthouse, I understand your desire to have a WS board, but I do have to tell you (and other WS posting) that, while painful, I have found it very enlightening to read your posts as well as others. Reading between the lines (listening to unspoken words?) has been an education for me, and I appreciate the fact that you take some beatings now and then.<BR>T

thanks twyla... ditto

OK...snl..<P>I'm back and will attempt to answer your questions.<P>1. Yes, we did meet in person about 20 months ago. Spent a total of about 8 hours with her...drove around, went out to lunch and talked a lot. <P>2. Don't know if we are on the 'same page' with the ideal of 'sacrificial marriage', But I'll take a stab at that one.<BR>The scriptures admonish husbands to 'love their lives like Christ loved the church and gave himself for it'. Authentic love always involves 'sacrifice'...that is more concerned with giving than it is "getting."<P>Do I believe that the marriage vows should be honored even if it means wearing a 'ball and chain' around your neck for the rest of your life? (thinking that might be your take on the term?) Well...Even though many marriages exist like that, I don't believe for a moment that was God's intention at all for marriage.<P>3. If the OW became single, would that be hard on me? Yes I'm sure it would be for various reasons. No doubt!<P>4. I believe my wife loves me very much. She would not be here with me today if she didn't. Would I say I have 'felt' like she was 'in-love' with me now or in the recent past? Well...I can't say that either of us felt that way about each other. My actions certainly have made it harder on her to 'feel love' for me, but I don't questoin for a second that she loves me very much.<P>5. Sorry...but you can't NOT factor in kids. I have 'em and believe they play a big role in those kind of decisions. I would like to believe that I would fight for my marriage if it came to that.<P>6. I would have to say that these "in-love" feelings are more directed toward the woman I was involved with in a much stronger way. But I believe it was my 'love' for my wife that served as the major reason why I never considered leaving her for this other relationship. I'm sure that sounds absurd to some, but it makes sense to me.<P>7. How often do I think of the OW? Let me just say I'm thankful that my thoughts are only known to God, and not my wife. And I don't believe He (God) is too happy with my thought life.<P>8. I confessed to my wife shortly after returning from my excursion where I met the OW. It was a very painful and tragic time in my marriage and life. It caused her great pain and shattered her world..and perception of me, not to mention the trust and faith she had in me.<BR>Unfortuately, my tears and anguish were divided. I hurt because of the horrendous pain I inflicted on her and saw it in her eyes. I hurt because I knew I could never talk or see the OW again. I was scared because I didn't know what to do or who to go to for help and unsure of what would happen to my marriage and family. I was scared because I knew my friend was confessing to her husband as well. <P>I sought out counseling, alone. My wife and I were never able to just really talk...about the why's and how comes of this whole ordeal. We just struggle with that area of being able to converse. It was so painful. Things just sort of got buried and life went on and all our issues were once again buried beneath the busy-ness of our lives at the time.<P>So many of the factors that contributed to the EA, were never dealt with...and in some ways, only made worse.<BR>Within the month following, contact was resumed with the OW via email. It started out as a small 'trickle'...then just mushroomed back into the full grown daily dialouge that we had grown so accustomed to and longed for.<P>Six months later, I again admitted to my wife that contact with the OW had resumed. It was not a pretty picture. Once again, turmoil and pain and anguished abounded. I went off for some more counseling...alone. It was 'my' problem. But when I returned...contact continued for the next year. Things 'toned down' a bit, but the daily dialouge and friendship...became just a place of comfort and saftey for me and her both. <P>As time went on...it seemed that the guilt and shame of our ongoing betrayal began to take a toll. Especially on my friend. The pain of our hidden sin was begining to outweigh the pleasure and enjoyment we got from the friendship. Being a male, I think I was able to 'block it out' more than her. She began to cry out for the need to end this before we were once again discovered and destroyed our marriages. Neither of us felt like we could endure that pain again. So we once again...for the 'umpteenth' time...said our good byes and cut off all contact. We took greater measures than ever before to help us with this by changing email and voice mail passwords...putting blocks on each other's email addresses...and have just prayed and cried out to God with all we had.<P>My reason for not being just 'radically honest' with her was that deep down...I don't believe she really wanted that. Denial played a role. Perhaps some day, I will be able to finally bare my heart and soul to her and share with her the extent of what happened to me. I don't want to say anymore here about this...but there had been earlier times when I had tried to cry out to her with some fears and conerns I was having about some temptations, and she just seemed unable or unwilling to really want to help me.<P>I'm not blaming her. It was just a painful discovery for me to see really...the distance that had grown between us over the years. You can just float along for so long and things seem to be ok on the surface...but there is such a shallowness that develops in a marriage relationship. I read in some post here awhile back about how some city lakes need to be dredged ever so often...because dirt and soot and stuff get washed in over time and cause the lakes to become more shallow...but you could never tell from looking at them. I think that happens to marriages if you are not careful. It did here for me.<P>Concerning your situation....it is very rare when some man can step into someone else's marriage on behalf of the wife and help get them back on track without crossing some lines. That is dangerous territory. I guess you know something about that, eh?<P>Sorry if this was too lengthy in response to your questions.

Should of posted elsewhere!<p>[This message has been edited by thinker (edited August 29, 2001).]

I guess snl, it's that you are the epitomy of my h but you actually talk. It seems that mine and thinker's life are quite similar and I can LB you here and it takes away some of my aggressive feelings. It's all because your reasoning (to me) is so off base. IMO you are being so so selfish. Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate you input, it's just that I think your rationalizing your behavior is so off base. I was about to ask a rational question, but realize that you are not at the point of answering it rationally (out of your fog - keep calling the OPs number to see if it's working?? give me a break)<P>Will you PLEASE get off the computer and go HOLD YOUR WIFE!!

SnL...<P>??? You still out there? How are things going with you?

Not good, not good at all. I am highly po'd, about to give jennifer a piece of my mind, and hit the road (but I will leave everything for my wife). However the good news is though I am madder than hell, I have managed not to completely blow up, so guess that is an improvement. Sorry I didn't respond back to you a little sooner, and did appreciate your answering the questions, have a little follow-up...<P>lh...I'm back and will attempt to answer your questions.<P>1. Yes, we did meet in person about 20 months ago. Spent a total of about 8 hours with her...drove around, went out to lunch and talked a lot.<P>snl...Did you touch her? as in kiss, hug, hold hands <P>2. Don't know if we are on the 'same page' with the ideal of 'sacrificial marriage', But I'll take a stab at that one.<BR>The scriptures admonish husbands to 'love their lives like Christ loved the church and gave himself for it'. Authentic love always involves 'sacrifice'...that is more concerned with giving than it is "getting."<P>snl...This interpretation (and is a common one) is wrong, it violates human psychology (as interpreted), and the Bible can never be interpreted in a way that is in opposition to what we know is true secularly (ie science et al, for example, the earth is not 6000 years old, it is 4.5 billion years old, therefore the Biblical "years" are not geologic years).<P>Do I believe that the marriage vows should be honored even if it means wearing a 'ball and chain' around your neck for the rest of your life? (thinking that might be your take on the term?) Well...Even though many marriages exist like that, I don't believe for a moment that was God's intention at all for marriage.<P>snl...me either, and He says it is not quite clearly.<P>4. I believe my wife loves me very much. She would not be here with me today if she didn't. <P>snl...sure she would, she has an investment in you, that the bs stays proves nothing at all re love.<P>Would I say I have 'felt' like she was 'in-love' with me now or in the recent past? Well...I can't say that either of us felt that way about each other. <P>snl...and that of course is significant. It is your psyche telling you stuff, what is confusing, but it is important.<P>My actions certainly have made it harder on her to 'feel love' for me, but I don't questoin for a second that she loves me very much.<P>snl...You are a better man than I lighthouse, I question it quite a bit. I know I am needed, and wanted, but I am very unsure I am loved just for being me, actions do not support that assessment in my case. <P>5. Sorry...but you can't NOT factor in kids. I have 'em and believe they play a big role in those kind of decisions. I would like to believe that I would fight for my marriage if it came to that.<P>snl...Sure I can not factor them in....unless you are suggesting love and marriage is only about kids, so once they get pregnant, nothing else makes any difference? If that is your philosophy, it is airtight, no room for confusion at all.....so tell me why do you love the ow then? And if you are fighting for your marriage for the kids sake, that must make your wife feel really special.<P>6. I would have to say that these "in-love" feelings are more directed toward the woman I was involved with in a much stronger way. But I believe it was my 'love' for my wife that served as the major reason why I never considered leaving her for this other relationship. I'm sure that sounds absurd to some, but it makes sense to me.<P>snl...Yep, sounds absurd, and self-decieveing, but you allready know that. The point is you should feel for your wife what you feel for the ow.....unless you are saying you are only hormonally driven, and in fact your love for ow had nothing to do with her worthiness, only your horni.... well don't want to totally insult you, but that is what your statement implies in plain frank language.<P>7. How often do I think of the OW? Let me just say I'm thankful that my thoughts are only known to God, and not my wife. And I don't believe He (God) is too happy with my thought life.<P>snl....And therein lies the tradjedy, as you well know, ain't sacrifice a b****.<P>8. I confessed to my wife shortly after returning from my excursion where I met the OW. It was a very painful and tragic time in my marriage and life. It caused her great pain and shattered her world..and perception of me, not to mention the trust and faith she had in me.<BR>Unfortuately, my tears and anguish were divided. I hurt because of the horrendous pain I inflicted on her and saw it in her eyes. I hurt because I knew I could never talk or see the OW again. I was scared because I didn't know what to do or who to go to for help and unsure of what would happen to my marriage and family. I was scared because I knew my friend was confessing to her husband as well.<P>snl....Thanks for the honesty, would have had to call ya on it had you not acknowledged the hurt was for you too It is a hell of a place to be, I was only able to deal with it by giving the pain (and control of outcome) to God, and trying to focus on what the psychological truths re human relationships required me to do. Found succor in analysis I guess, it is how I cope. <P>I sought out counseling, alone. My wife and I were never able to just really talk...about the why's and how comes of this whole ordeal. We just struggle with that area of being able to converse. It was so painful. Things just sort of got buried and life went on and all our issues were once again buried beneath the busy-ness of our lives at the time.<P>snl...Ah, that tried and trusted tool of satan...denial. Unfortunately for my w, denial isn't in my vocabulary, I talk everything to death, and have made her miserable accordingly....I am sensitive, and try to do it caringly, but when I discovered the harley principle of radical honesty, I felt like I had just found the Holy Grail....the floodgates of 23 years of supresion (cause wife hates dealing with my emotions) flooded open....and she has to listen.<P>So many of the factors that contributed to the EA, were never dealt with...and in some ways, only made worse.<BR>Within the month following, contact was resumed with the OW via email. It started out as a small 'trickle'...then just mushroomed back into the full grown daily dialouge that we had grown so accustomed to and longed for.<P>snl....well, I could say something here, but you probably allready know, and it would disteress the bs here no end, and I already do enough of that, so I won't.<P>Six months later, I again admitted to my wife that contact with the OW had resumed. It was not a pretty picture. Once again, turmoil and pain and anguished abounded. I went off for some more counseling...alone. It was 'my' problem. <P>snl...This is so dumb...it is not your problem, you are doing what humans do, love someone, there is nothing wrong with you (or you can never love your wife either), it is a marital problem and require a couple solution, not "fixing" you.<P>But when I returned...contact continued for the next year. Things 'toned down' a bit, but the daily dialouge and friendship...became just a place of comfort and saftey for me and her both.<P>snl...And no doubt you wondered and bemoaned a world that won't even allow you to be friends (hence the secrecy), sucks doesn't it. <P>As time went on...it seemed that the guilt and shame of our ongoing betrayal began to take a toll. <P>snl...yep.<P>Especially on my friend. <P>snl...double yep, I really think this kind of circumstance is harder on the women. Tore my ow to pieces.<P>The pain of our hidden sin was begining to outweigh the pleasure and enjoyment we got from the friendship. Being a male, I think I was able to 'block it out' more than her.<P>snl..oh yeah, think I just said that.<P>My reason for not being just 'radically honest' with her was that deep down...I don't believe she really wanted that. Denial played a role. Perhaps some day, I will be able to finally bare my heart and soul to her and share with her the extent of what happened to me. <P>snl...The road to hell is paved with blah blah blah. There is no good excuse my friend, nada, none....it is a principle, just like gravity, and you break it only to suffer the consequences. You don't reveal the truth for your benefit, yours alone, if you think otherwise is not simple denial, is a bald-faced self-serving lie. I suspect the benefit is simple, and not a concious choice....by not revealing the truth, you continue to share a secret and a connection with ow, you aren't kidding anyone but yourself lighthouse. You know the full truth will result in a total trashing of everything you thought good and wonderful about your relationship with ow, and that is what is too much to bear.<P>I don't want to say anymore here about this...but there had been earlier times when I had tried to cry out to her with some fears and conerns I was having about some temptations, and she just seemed unable or unwilling to really want to help me.<P>snl....SO????? You do it anyways, and if your emotions get trashed, the reality of your marriage is exposed more honestly, to be fixed or ended. The truth will set you free, but not always quite in the way you may want. <P>I'm not blaming her. It was just a painful discovery for me to see really...the distance that had grown between us over the years. You can just float along for so long and things seem to be ok on the surface...but there is such a shallowness that develops in a marriage relationship. <P>snl....That shaallowness is the fact one has no marriage, a marriage (IMO) is a living thing, and whether it seems healthy on the outside, if it has cancer on the inside, it is dead.<P>I read in some post here awhile back about how some city lakes need to be dredged ever so often...because dirt and soot and stuff get washed in over time and cause the lakes to become more shallow...but you could never tell from looking at them. I think that happens to marriages if you are not careful. It did here for me.<P>snl...One must be careful with analogies, this is real life, not a "story", and a marriage either works or it doesn't, IMO you cannot lose true love, you can get lost for a while, but the love is there...it is when you wake up and your brain keeps trying to tell your heart it is a decision, it is a decision, it is a decision.....you are in deep doo doo, one cannot convince a heart of anything. But the good news is you do not have to have love to be married, you just have to deny your heart and just do it, a contract, a quid pro quo, is enuf for many, maybe enuf for you too.<P>Concerning your situation....it is very rare when some man can step into someone else's marriage on behalf of the wife and help get them back on track without crossing some lines. That is dangerous territory. I guess you know something about that, eh?<P>snl...Yes it is dangerous, and probably can't be done (unless you don't fall in love with her, maybe if you are like 100years old perhaps, or her brother). The funny thing is I am content with her restoring her marriage, falling in love with her H, but she won't. Like most of us introspective types in long term marriages, we aren't really very fog bound, we know the score, we just made a tactical error and opened our hearts, thinking we could manage the friendship.... a serious mistake, and now a lot of people are paying the price. But IMO the price is the inevitable outcome of how we try to bind people to marriages, something is gonna break if love is not there, not just any love, not caring, but the deep abiding passion that is very much dependent on a particular match, and cannot, never will be, a decision. It is something beyond our ken, something that cannot be explained to those who have never seen it, I never understood, now I do, and it is the standard I will stay or leave in my marriage with. The harley's say you can have that with most anyone....we will see. I hope they are right.<P>Good luck fighting your own demons..... just remember temptation comes in many flavors, and all is rarely as it seems...... ponder that for awhile.<P><BR>

snl and lighthouse.... why DID you get married in the first place? What did you expect...to be treated like you were always right, the king, the master? Well, maybe not a bad thing, as long as you were treating your wife as the queen. And then shatter your wife's life with your A? but the only thing that matters seems to be YOUR feelings or worse yet, the OW's feelings? <P>yes, still,the angry BS...some things don't seem to change.<P>Deb<BR>

Hi Deb...<P>Yep...I can hear your anger. The question you asked almost sounds rhetorical...that you were not really interested in an answer....perhaps just 'venting?"<P>I don't think any of us are upset or dismayed about not being 'treated like a king or master' as you put it.<P>Speaking for myself...my reasons for getting married to my wife 20 years ago....were honest, pure, noble, godly, and right. And while I never thought I was "above temptation", I would have never seen this coming for myself.<P>Have you ever wondered why WS's even come and post on these boards? I mean honestly...if we were as heartless and cruel as many would assume us to be...then we would careless about what we've done and whom we might have hurt. I would imagine that there are more men and even women than we could count who cheat on their spouses and never blink an eye or look back.<P>But many of us...ended up in a place that we never thought we would be. It has rocked our worlds as well. We're trying to sort through some things...figure it out...looking for help and support...trying to untangle a web of feelings and emotions and thoughts.<P>Are we in this mess by 'choice?' Yea...I'm sure we are. Won't even argue that one.<P>But I've always been struck by Harlery's comment the first time I ever read something by him. He said there is no excuse for an affair, but there are reasons. <P>For myself...I come here and read and post because deep down, I am looking for healing. <P>But while I don't know the pain and anger that a BS really feels, having never been on 'that side of the tracks', I can certainly understand why you feel that. <P>I'm sorry...really...I am...for this hand that has been dealt to you. And if 'lashing out' at WS's here helps...I want you to know I don't mind. But I do also hope that in the process...you too...might come to understand the reasons that played a part in you being here with the rest of us.<P>~sigh~<P>SnL...<P>I'll have to get back to you later. <p>[This message has been edited by lighthouse (edited September 01, 2001).]

SnL<P>You did preface your post here by saying you were PO'd, so I will take what you wrote with that in mind.<P>I sense that much of your writing is just a way of 'venting' and a way to find some release, so I don't feel compelled to really respond or comment to all of your writings. Don't think you are really looking for that.<P>But, you did say concerning my remarks about our instruction to "love our wives the way Christ loved the church...." You wrote:<P>snl...This interpretation (and is a common one) is wrong, it violates human psychology (as interpreted), and the Bible can never be interpreted in a way that is in opposition to what we know is true secularly (ie science et al, for example, the earth is not 6000 years old, it is 4.5<P>How can you say my 'interpretation is wrong!?' I simply stated the literal verse. Doesn't seem to leave much room for varied interpretation. And even if it did...I can see you saying that one particular interpretation differs from yours, but to suggest it is flat out 'wrong'? Come on....<P>Jesus himeself stated that he did not come to be served, but TO serve. I think true biblical 'love' is more about giving than receiving. You cite human nature and psychology being at odds with this. Well, no duh! Why do you think Jesus said we needed to be 'born again'? We have a corrupt, sinful and selfish nature that is in direct opposition to the things of God. Check out Ephesians 2:1-4 and Romans 8:5-8.<P>Please forgive me for 'preaching scripture' here when I have betrayed some of the most sacred and holy principals woven through the scriptures. I am guilty. No question. My heart is quite at odds with what I know to be true. But that does not take away from the fact that I do recognize truth...just having a tough time lineing up with it.<P>You mentioned also, (not sure if in this post or another one I can't locate right now) about giving more credibility to our 'feelings'. That sure sounds dangerous to me. I would think any student of scripture or human psychology...would recognize how fleeting 'feelings' and emotions can be. <BR>I'll be the first one to admit that these feelings I have had for the OW are about as strong and persausive and convincing as anything I have ever felt in my life. IF I just acted on these feelings...I would have left my wife and kids long ago...and left a trail of destruction in my path doing that. And what would that have accomplished. Before long, feelings of guilt would have swept over me for what I had done. Then what?<P>Anyway...just a short response here. I struggle along with you.