I've been reading all of your posts and they have helped a great deal....<P>Does the longing for the "other" ever go away?? (other woman, other life, etc)<P>Does the fact that we both decided to stop the A for the right reasons (the kids, the vows, etc..) right when our love for each other was at the peak of intensity (6 month EA--4 month PA) make it harder? maybe impossible since we never got to experience the "reality of actually living as a couple with all the difficulties"?<P>Since I had already (in my own mind) declared my 15 yr marriage dead and felt like my W had emotionally and physically abandoned me (in counseling she is now admitting as such, so it wasn't just my own wishful thinking, ok?)-- how can I allow myself to be vulnerable to potential of going through the same pain I just spent 10 of our 15 yrs suffering through? Yes she does want to change...she does want to work it out..but I don't know if I want to lay my heart on the table again only to have it smashed to pieces again...(Trueheart...she is the one standing by me and forgiving me, etc..as you say....but I feel like its because she has nothing else..she has completely sacrificed her identity for the sake of our family...that is where her anger which turned into passive/aggressive behavior came from---she gave everything for me and our kids....but the sad part is she gave everything--lost herself---she is now discovering that and grieving that loss in the middle of dealing with what I've done....in a nutshell: she is staying because like a child she can't make it without me her parent...not becuase she as a healthy adult chooses to be with me...I know it sounds odd....but it is one of the things that contributed to my not feeling loved by her - as an adult-to-adult, not a child-to-parent---hope this makes sense. I don't mean to sound harsh---the child/parent/adult terminology is coming from the counselor, not me.<P>If the choice is either:<BR> a) inflict pain on others and get what I want<BR>or<BR> b) inflict pain on myself so others can get what they want<P>then why does my pain and needs always have to come last???????...this is especially difficult for me since I (and the OW) have always been the Givers...always laid down our wishes for the sake of others (spouses, kids, family, etc)...this A was totally unexpected for both of us - ask our friends...they are shocked - and it was not part of a pattern for either of us...neither had ever even come close to doing anything like this and we never will again go thru this with another----it really is not a "typical situation" - I know I know...we all say that, but if you knew all the details, you really would agree.<P>We just both want to be together but know we can't because it's just not right..... but GOD it hurts so much, knowing what it would be like to be together...not just for the SEX, okay...that is #4 on my EN assessment, and it is the other needs that matter more, and also contribute more to a healthier marriage - openness, communication, affection (my top 3) than some others--sex, physcial attraction, domestic support----all the others can be negotiated and discussed openly if there is communication and openess, but without it, you can't even discuss any of the needs....well that's where my marriage fell apart.<P>This just really sucks, you know

hopeless romantic:<P>I am the BS and I know you really don't want to hear my opinion, but here it is.... Like you, my WS found his <BR>"soulmate" in his affair. In fact, we are now divorced as a result of it. I can't even begin to tell you the pain and heartache I and my children have gone through. <P>I loved my WS with all my heart, but I was SO guilty of thinking that I had time, that when the kids were older, that it was a "down" time in our marriage.... While I was thinking all of this, he was seeking comfort in the arms of another who he THINKS is just as special as your OW. <P>I look at my children now and think how did it come to this????? I was NEVER a perfect wife, just like he was never a perfect man. But I would and did give him every chance to make things right. PLEASE, I beg you, make a REAl effort to make it work with your wife or leave her and let her get on with her life. You see, my WS lied constantly after Dday (4/00). <P>Had he been honest with me, I would be a year + on my way over this marriage. I needed HONESTY to move on and he never gave it to me.<P>I don't profess to know how you feel about OW - how special she must feel after so many years of a "mundane" marriage. I was also a partner in a mundane marriage, I just never looked elsewhere, except female friends. If you hear condemnation in my voice, I'll admit, it's there. I have been had the rug ripped out from under me as have my girls...... We are suffering the consequences of WS's choices now. If you would like to know more, let me know.<P>But I would like to reiterate that you don't know pain, not like I do. You are giving up something you care about - you have a CHOICE. I didn't have that choice and neither did my girls. <P>I don't know about your OW, but in my case, the OW is one to break her marriage vows and one who cares nothing for the vows others have made. My WS thinks he's special as I'm sure you do. From the outside looking in, it's just so ridiculous as I know my WS will find out one day.. <P>I know what you feel must be true pain, but you really don't have a clue about real pain. I'll be glad to share all of it with you, if interested....

Hopeless...<P>Not sure if you read the other post from last night I left you.<P>Let me assure you....it is post like the one you got from 'trappedmom' that put all this back into perspective.<P>I understand your pain totally. And sometimes, I honestly think that 'our pain' becomes the 'focal point' instead of the objective at hand. Problem with that is we then began to 'serve the pain' and do whatever we can to rid ourselves of it. And that is not healthy or wise.<P>Imagine a woman...giving birth to a baby. (Can't say I've ever done this). But from what I do know...as painful as delivering a child is...the pain becomes secondary. Getting that kid out becomes the priority. Get him/her out...and the pain will subside. Hope this doesn't sound too crazy of a comparison. <BR>But I know I have allowed that pain factor to govern so much of what I do instead of focusing on what I need to do.<P>In answer to your question...it doesn't really matter how long it last. If I didn't have the hope that things will eventually get better, then there is no way that I could keep trying. I would refuse to live in this place of torment and would just give in to the desires of my heart.<P>Hey...I'm still waiting on some of your background info I asked about in the earlier post...can you share that here?<BR>

ARGGGGG! Wake up! <P>(sorry, couldn't help it)<P>Sorry not to be more constructive... just annoid tonight. Nuthin to do with you, really....<P>arggggggg! (I think other BS might understand my attitude right now)<P>Night....<BR>

hopless,<P>It fades, Only 6 months? you bearly had a chance to rev up!<P>know that your situation isnt unique, there are others who did the "made the Right Decision at the hardest time" and that the pain definatley fades.<P>i didnt get it from this post, but does your wife know? <P><P>------------------<BR>in loving service<BR>chaz

No one's situation is exactly the same as you stated already but I am a survivor (WS) and nearly all desire/interest in OM is gone. He pops into my thoughts at times but I end up rejecting those thoughts. He no longer torments my thoughts (he kept 100% no contact--rather enforced by H's death threat!)<P>As for the choice about pain, the only choice is to face it and feel it for now but hang on to hope that there will be a better day, whatever form that is going to take. I don't want to offer cliches; just hope. <P>You don't have to lose by making either of the choices you mentioned...you need some time to work on you, forgiveness wherever needed and rest. Make sure you do the every day stuff (like showering, doing something special for you, etc)--the depression is difficult for both spouses--you may not be able to conquer it right now but try to do what you can to rise above it a bit...including medication if necessary.<P>We are here for you. Please take care and know you have people who care here and I pray so in your life as well.<P>------------------<BR>Fresh Start

Hopeless you are asking the right questions, the problem is there are no answers. You know the present, and you know the past.....the future is not yet written, and you are not going to be allowed to know it. I cannot tell you what to do, but I can tell you how I decided this unknown future must be handled....<P>1. First you give up your future to God, what will be will be.<P>2. You focus on what your choices are now. You are a product of your culture, and in part, your value is (in part) a reflection of what your peers think of you too. If marriage is to have any value to you, then it must be valued no matter who you are married too. That means your present committment has consequences. Ideally the bs would say of course I understand, we are not a good fit, and it would be much better if we parted, they would then pack you a lunch, give you a kiss, send you out the door cheerfully telling you to have a wonderful life and be sure to write. That was my script anyways, I was a wee bit mistaken. <P>The reality is life is indeed not fair, but fairplay needs to be a factor in what we do. So no matter how we slice it, we incur a debt when we unilaterally "declare the marriage dead"..... it takes 2 to get married, and it should take 2 to get divorced. Therefore when the bs declines the divorce, we must (for our own best ethical well-being) acknowledge the debt, and stop our departure. That is the price we pay for "testing" the waters, whether by design or accident. But the clock starts ticking, the bs must make their case, and we must listen...what does that mean? It means both parties must immediately practice radical honesty, all problems must be fully aired. At which time a good faith effort must me made (if one party asks) to apply sound marital principles...no LB, meet EN, poja.....for a sufficient time that the effect of any changes can be fairly assessed. If this fails, and "in-love" cannot be found, if both parties do not enthusiastically want to be married, then one can address their spiritual/ethical beliefs and act accordingly.....knowing that the committment of vows were given a fair chance, that the dignity of the bs was restored (by your fairplay, and leaveing the op), and that radical honesty insured the truth between you is not tainted (in other words, you were not kidding yourself, or suffering from some emotional dysfunction). There are other issues too, dealing with parenting, support for a sah spouse, specific promises made (and not yet kept), moral and emotional support as needed. I do not believe in sacrificial marriage, if you do the work, and just do not want to be married, it must end, but there is a right way and a wrong way to end a marriage. And the right way is to accept human committments come with consequences, and be willing to meet those consequences. (for example) One of the most depressing things I see are op (usually ow, don't mean affair necessarily) who upon marrying a divorced man seek to cut him off from his first family, like they never existed...that is so wrong, they are part of who he is, and they should be important to her. Or (if you are the source of income) the other spouse being committed to a reduced lifestyle.... that is crap, just plain wrong....not to mention the huge amount of parental committments if children are involved.<P>You can choose to just say it is over, you have tried as hard as you intend to, and maybe if your wife was seriously abusive, had a unresolvable personality disorder, you could in good faith leave. Some spouses will never accept you leaveing, they view you as their emotional property, because you "promised", and there is no hope of reconcilliation, so the best thing to do is get it over with.... But more often, there is a lot of confusion, and problems may be fixable, and a new vision of ones marriage may be possible, but you will never know if you do not do the work....and the price of an A, is you must do the work. Is kinda a natural law I think, and you violate it at serious risk to your psyche.<P>3. Already mentioned, but deserving of it's own number. You must give up the other person. Not that you love them, that is not something you have cognitive control over. But you can stop giving time and emotional resources to them, and they to you (because they must go back and do the same). If the committment to op wanes, and dies with time, then was never really meant to be anyways, as awful as that is to contemplate. It is so scarey, you feel so compelled to keep nurturing it, but if the basis of your love is fear, fear of losing her (for doing the right thing) then one must wonder about the nature of the love vs a narcissitic addiction. This is a bitter pill to swallow, and being scared and lonely about it is perfectly normal, but if your love is real, and is to be, the future will unfold accordingly. You must accept that either one of you may come to decide that it can never be, and that being apart may cause that to happen. In a way, the scariest thing is that ourself, might be the one who comes to feel that way, and have to then face ourself in the mirror. The seeking, the chasing, the resistance to give up the love is not just about loving, it is about justifying we are not just your ordinary garden variety selfish user.<P>No matter where humans find love, it comes with a price, and if you do not pay that price, the love suffers, or never was. If you seek the ow over the body of your spouse, you will pay a long-term psychological price, and IMO it is too high, will probably destroy your new marriage (or at least it's happiness), and quite possibly destroy you. You have to walk through the fire hopeless, and you have to do it willingly. You have to bare your soul to your wife, risk having your heart smashed to pieces, allow your wife to heal (and she cannot heal without your help), if you cannot do this, you really don't love anyone but yourself, and why would you want the ow to be in love with a loser (you). <P>That is the path, radical honesty, vulnerability (emotional committment), and a time committment, is not so complicated really. (says he, after about 5 months of agonizing soul searching to conclude this). Do not be confused about your feelings. It is not a walk in the park. There will be anger, depression, anxiety, even terror, hopelessness...but it is a process, you just do it. I think lighthouse had the same struggle, I am in the midst of it, having only started no contact about 3 weeks ago. The radical honesty is hard, in making myself vulnerable, I have had to tear down my emotional walls, and I explode fairly often, my wife has learned she did not have to deal with my emotions (I buried them to escape the pain), now she is lost, and often reverts to old patterns which make me nuts. But I guess we are trying, and it will take time. Just today (we have had a bad couple days), I seriously thought (as I drove down the road somewhere) to just keep going, to just run away, disappear, and never look back. Leave her everything (we have enough that she would be allright). Forget it all, all the demands of wife and family, (obviously forget the ow too), I have been sucked dry, I have nothing more to give (probably my taker talking), there is no hope. Is only a short walk from that point to figuring might as well go all the way, and just jump off a bridge...or maybe a take a boat out in the ocean and tie an anchor to...... well you get the picture. The point is this is scarey hard stuff, and it WILL NOT be easy, you do your thinking, you figure out your path hopeless, then you carry it out (right or wrong), you quit whining, and carrying on, and you do it....that is what a man [or a woman ] does. Good luck.

freshstart...may I ask a question? Consider this of anthropological interest, not so much a MB issue. You suggest om has maintained no contact (what about you?) because of your H death threat...(and I realize that you do not necessarily mean he would actually kill someone). It seems reasonable that in part your love for om would wane because (if true) any male who would not fight for you is hardly worthy. There are plenty of males who would have responded with more like a let him try, you are mine now. Were you in any way (even the tiniest amount) um........ disappointed he gave up so easily? Thinking/feeling he must not really have loved you anyways?<P>If this annoys or makes you uncomfortable, just ignore it.

for those of you who wish to email me or me email you...<P>my address is pismonight@yahoo.com<P>I will post my whole story here for you later today.<P>Thank you all for your posts