S_N_L,<BR>You responded to Sad Dad's post about how he should become "aggressive" in this "interpersonal War" to win back his W's affections. That struck something in me. I never have been one who knew how to "fight for my man" etc. My best girlfriend laughed and told me I simply have "No feminine wiles." It's kinda funny, it's kinda what my H liked about me, but puts me at distinct disadvantage now.<P>I'm curious if you would expound on what you wrote to him. What would YOU have done differently, if YOU were the BS:<BR>P.S. Try to NOT use your situation as the absolute, but one model out of many you've read about here. I realize it's your frame of reference, but it's ... um ... sorta ... unique?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>This is a war, an interpersonal war (in a way), fought on many murky levels, and IMO the harleys don't always know how to fight it, having never been ws themselves. But having been a ws myself, should I ever (heaven forbid) be a bs, you can bet I will not proceed necessarily in the ways espoused here sometimes. The bs aren't nearly aggressive enough, our species rewards aggression, and stomps the meek...however it is tricky in the marital arena... the aggression must be appropriate and nurturing, not confrontational or controlling, a fine line indeed, but it is there. The biggest shortcoming the bs have, is they are afraid of running off their spouse, and that fear is your undoing in many cases. Until a bs comes to feel/understand/accept the old marriage is dead, cannot be saved, and that a new one may or may not arise from the ashes, they are paralyzed, their options limited, and indeed the ws absolutely controls the relationship, and we all know what absolute power usually results in...... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks for your input. I STILL enjoy your posts, and also still think you and W are <B> still playing the wrong tapes to each other, resulting in much frustration.</B> You need a new "dance"<P>Lupo

Lupo,<P>You are one smart cookie. I too am not an aggresive female, never have been even in dating. I would have no clue how to fight for my "MAN". I have never competed for him, I was just me, and he liked "just me".<P>So I'm anxious to hear SnL's response on how to be "appropriate and nurturing" as a BS in winning back their WS.<P>Jo

SNL were are you?<P>I too, was just me and that was what brough H and I together, I was his friend and we did things together, I even set him up with my girlfriends as I wasn't interested in. The OW is from the way past that he has had an ongoing friendship with. So really am not even sure what type of fight if any to put up. I just have let things be for the last few weeks, and was sent an e mail from H saying for me to please let him go and get on with my life, have just ignored that e mail.<P>Dawn<P>Am looking forward to what SNL has to say!

Asd you know lupo I am your typical ws, and a strange ws as well, so take whatever I say with a grain of salt (for your own sake). My particular coping mechanism for life is to understand...in detail, why people (and therefore myself) do what they do, what are the principles that drive human behaviour. For obvious reasons (and much of my angst published here) I am currently devoting most of my emotional/intellectual resources to figuring out what the heck happened to me. I But along the way I have formed some opinions re behavioural strategy of bs and ws..... is much easier than trying to fathom the more complex issues of what is marriage, why stay married if you are unhappy, what is mating and fitting.. I am not just relying on my personal circumstance, but more a general reply based on the dozens (if not hundreds) of stories I have read here.<P>There seems to be a general sense of do nothing to upset the ws, they will just run away...that is a flawed notion for a couple reasons. First if s/he is gonna run there is nothing you can do to change there minds, this isn't like what restaurant to eat at today or something. If your spouse is bonded to you, just confused and wandering, they are well aware of that (deep down) and there is no way they are going to leave you permanently...BUT if you enable them, they will push the limits (just like any teenager) and go as far as they can get away with..... and in so doing, come to disrespect you even more on top of whatever other issues allready exist (for condoning the misbehaviour). OTOH if they are in fact going to leave you permanently, they have already left (what do you think the affair was?), and by letting do what they want, you just enable them to arrange everything the way they want, wait for the op, whatever, none of it to your advantage, or helpful to your marriage (IMO).<P>Part of the promblem is this notion that vows and committment mean you will never have to deal with potential divorce. Of course we now know almost every marriage will face a marital crisis sooner or later, and over 50% will involve some form of infidelity. It is understandable, but counter-prodductive when bs who unilaterally figure they will base their behaviour on just enduring (cause their vows offer no alternatives), just wring their hands, and either LB or start plan a'ing. This is basically the the guilt (the ws) and see I have changed approach, and it works sometimes...but IMO the marriage was in no real danger anyways. Those ws who fairly quickly say OMG what have I done, I am so sorry, let me do whatever I can to make it up, were not going anywheres anyways.....they are for the most part neglected spouses, who have little self-control, and found themselves in a compromising position. All they really wanted to do was get your attention (and so they did), or feed their egos (not so good, but they are not stupid enough leave their familes and all that that means). The point being, if your spouse is gonna come back (in most cases), they will after a fairly short plan a. Obviously if you majorly LB and tear up your spouse, they may leave longer, but they will still come back. Likewise those who are not gonna stay, won't no matter how good your plan a is, the boards are littered with the bodies of such BS. In between their may be a group of truly fence sitting ws, who may leave, but who could be persuaded to return, it is to those situations I address the following.<P>The ws has left cause they assess in some way or another the marriage doesn't work, and they doubt it ever will. So the first response is pure harley, don't LB, acknowledge the bs role in the marital breakdown, and express a willingness to really address the issues the ws has with the bs. This will give the ws pause, they just figured you'd be angry, trash em, and demand they return and honor their vows blah blah blah....they are ready for this, and have already made up their minds, the bs is wasting their breath, this is survival, I can't emphasize that too much. The ws does not care about your arguments, they feel the marriage was killing em, and they are not coming back. Any controlling aggression at this point just causes violent emotional/verbal (and sometimes physical) responses in the ws, and will drive them away, you have just proven you are only conderned about yourself, your words otherwise mean absolutely nothing.<P>Ok, so you don't LB, and start an effective plan a, ws is watching, but they are also focused on pursuing the op. They know this can't go on forever, but for now is pretty comfortable, and the power over the bs feels pretty good too. But IMO what happens if allowed to go on very long, is many ws come to feel they don't have to really do anything, that you will just wait for them, and even worse that they can LB you and you just have to take it. This is not good. Humans are a funny animal, they have a tendency to kick someone when they are down (for complicated reasons I won't bother with here, you know what I mean). So instead of appreciateing you, they come to look down on you, you are weak and needy, and therefore not good marriage material (who wants a weak spouse, it is genetically unsound). OTOH, the op is drawing em in, making em work for em, pursue em, this is all very attractive stuff.<P>So what to do? IMO you realize you are in a fight with another suitor for your spouse, if you think you own em, or your vows give you the upper hand, or the kids will draw em back, you are making a huge tactical mistake. Those things may work, but they are all rationalizable by the ws, not to mention don't you want em back cause they WANT you? IMO what you do is plan a, showcase your changes, but set boundaries, and one of which is that you are not gonna wait, they want you, they better pursue you, and stop pursuing the op. Obviously you have a lot going for you, you know your spouse better than anyone, have history, kids, etc. So you make it clear you are going to get on with your life, perk yourself up, go out (not date necessarily, but be out there) have fun, don't ask em for stuff (take care of things, showing you don't need em in a dependent way). Part of this is attitude, it shows. As long as the sun rises and sets on your ws they have power over you. They must know the clock is ticking, that the reality is you can and will leave them too if they don't come back. You must come to understand there are plenty of prospective mates, and if this one doesn't appreciate you, someone else will. By projecting that, your ws has reality sharply clarified for them, they know you love em, may always love em, they see your changes, they see your willingness to not LB and move past this, but they also see the backbone, they see you understand you can love someone, but you don't have to be married to them, and you will not let yourself be abused or treated without care. You can hold people accountable without LB, by being firm and setting boundaries. The tools are seperation, requiring respectful speech, and adjusting your life as if they were not there (and they aren't). Forget the endless agonizing relationship talks, all the stupid promises, and focus on behaviour, an easy quality to assess. Pursue your ws just like you would a new suitor, and don't figure a divorce is the end of your life, it isn't, it is just a change, and probably for the better, if you learned your lessons, and if you do not let yourself be "thrown" away (and all the victim mentality that goes with it).<P>In everyday terms this means not living with a spouse that insists on pursuing op. Not structuring your life around spouse (do what you think is right as if you were single, for the most part), do not be accepting of verbal abuse (but don't instigate heated arguments either). And don't worry about things done for you being LB, they aren't, just ignore they protests....this is firm but loving behaviour, your arms are always open, you reward them when they behave loving (just like you would any suitor)....this sends a powerful message to ws. You are calm, self-assured, moving ahead with life, making needed changes in yourself, not taking any crap, meeting ws needs, and they allready have you, they just have to turn toward you, a very desireable mate. If they won't they probably wouldn't anyways, or would have under less than desireable terms, (the ws not changing). Anything worth having must have a risk attached, and by making it clear the ws is not the only one who may choose divorce, the marriage becomes something they aren't gauranteed, but have to pursue and work for, that is why vows are useless as a means to gaurantee marriage. Vows only work if both people want to be there anyways, they have some minor use in motivating someone to stay and listen a while, but they will never keep you married to someone who does not want to be there, what will keep them is making yourself as desireable as possible, and being weak and needy is not a step in that direction.<P>This is kinda off the top of my head, and I rambled some, it needs to be done much better, but maybe you get the gist of what I am saying.<BR>

SnL,<BR>Got to agree with you almost totally...where we would have disagreement would be in the statement..<P>"The ws has left cause they assess in some way or another the marriage doesn't work, and they doubt it ever will. "<P>A minor point, but I really think some WS/BS feel that "that's the way they always said it would be", (to borrow some Carly Simon lyrics) and that marital bordome/stagnation/ disillusionment is normal after so many years, and how do you really get the old fire back? How do you face your spouse after so many years and say "I'm not happy, I'm not sad..I'm ambivilent and I want things to change." So, affairs happen and I think most anyone is suseptible.<P>On the subject of the Plan A/ non LB..you are right on...Self respect is the most important aspect of these...when I first started the whole Plan A thing, that was missing, but the minute my self respect came into play, and my mind was somewhat back to normal, I realized that with or without him, I had to be happy and I had to know exactly what my limits were. And when these boundaries were crossed, I had to make a stand...good old Plan B.<P>As far as not "having feminine wiles", Lupo, I gotta ask you... when you hear that term, you think of all the stereotypical nasty stuff, lying, cheating, faking it...do you really want those? Honesty will always serve you better. And this is coming from the consummate southern belle. An honest, forthright, confident woman will always have it over the divas without the souls.<BR>T

Dear S&L:<P>Although I don't disagree basically with what you have said, I think you have missed the point of what was being asked....because I have asked the same question and don't really have a good answer either.<P>A lot of us women have been the backbone of our marriage for years, holding together all the little pieces of our lives...and in doing so we've forgotten how or maybe being strong women we never needed to use those aspects of our nature that are usually labeled feminine...needing to be taken care of, being weaker, not being logical or sensible...I mention only the aspects that I consider to be feminine in the eyes of men...there are others that are far more important.<P>Now, there are WH like mine who helped to weed these attributes out of us by failing to be "there" in the marriage to do their part...part of which we had to assume...and then at some point began to resent the Frankenstein they had created themselves...and suddenly they wanted that simpering, needy female who was willing to cater to their every whim to make them feel more "manly".<P>What are we to do? Begin to use our "feminine wiles" to win them back...What Wiles???? Sure we can do what you suggest and be pro-active in our approach to this...and generally this is a good approach, but it will have limited success...until WH has some experience with living with what he thinks he wants now and begins to found out that he needs and wants the strength he left behind.<P>At first, he is too deep into the good feelings he's getting from OW. I've actually had my WH say "why don't you use your feminine wiles on me?" and I can equate this generally with fulfilling his EN for admiration...an EN I can certainly fulfill with no problem...and have been working on...and I can see that in my effort to do everything and be everything I lost my feelings for his needs....as he did mine.<P>What I have a problem with is that I can never be the needy, clingy woman that he's found in OW and if the marriage is to survive he needs to accept that and learn to appreciate who and what I am...something I think his experience with OW has began to teach him. I am giving him room to find what he needs...by letting him have time to have what he thinks he needs and seeing if it makes him happy. <P>By the way, the first time around I used your method...and it did make him come home...but not for good...because he had not learned anything...he just came home because he was afraid he would lose me. I want him to come home because he realizes this is the best place for him....and now I'm hearing those thoughts from him. <P>By the way, I have never brought up the word "vows" during this whole business...I am here not because I make a vow but because I love this person...good or bad...and I never expected him to stay or come back just because he made a vow.<P><BR>Faye<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B>Asd you know lupo I am your typical ws, and a strange ws as well, so take whatever I say with a grain of salt (for your own sake). </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>You know, some days I feel like ***** slapping you, and then some days you come up with some truly coherent, meaningful posts. And this was one of them. [so was another one you wrote today, but I don't think I should call attention to it, but you did hit the nail on the head]<BR>

Buffy, maybe there is a little mutual misunderstanding, I (this male at least) is not attracted in the least to a needy clingy female, I prefer strong women. But my points were supposed to be (rambling though I was) about not turning a plan a into open season on the bs. That the bs (of either gender) needs to set reasonable boundaries, and make it clear they can and will go on without the ws if the ws persists in disrespectful behaviour. The crux of my point is attitude, and not projecting a dependency on the ws coming back.<P>re your points, I am game, will address em as this male sees it. I am not sure what feminine wiles are but I have a notion or two. There are gender specific behaviours that are hardwired deep in our genes, and I think both sexes respond to them when presented. For example a female ws expects some aggression from her bs, especially toward the om, and a kinda take charge attitude...even though they may complain bitterly about it.<P>Male ws expect some neediness (but not woe is me, or clingliness) kinda a aggressive neediness, you want us, and will focus on us, but not crawl through the mud for us, or reward us if we don't respond right.... it is a dance. What doesn't work is an aggressive response, guilting, threats, manipulation....just pursue us like when dating. Not abide the A in your face, and so forth. It is hard to put into words, we want to know you want and need us, but that you can and will survive just fine without us if we are not worthy, but that you would be devastated if you lost us and we are worthy (like died or something). As to the everyday need of a wife for a husband issues, where strong women just sort of takeover, the book the surrendered woman seems to address the murky genetic issues quite well. For the record, my wife takes care of all kinds of stuff, that has never been an issue for me, I personally think it is great, out problems lie elsewhere. Mostly I don't understand these guys who complain about wives doing everything, they are very shortsighted.....but wives who critize, or try to makeover their husbands...... there is a real problem. My wife has tried, and we have fought for 23 years over it, so I am not emasculated, just tired of being judged and found lacking.<P>buffy...By the way, the first time around I used your method...and it did make him come home...but not for good...because he had not learned anything...he just came home because he was afraid he would lose me. I want him to come home because he realizes this is the best place for him....and now I'm hearing those thoughts from him. <P>snl...That was the goal, for him to choose you, as for the lessons, that is a different issue. Apparently he did not, so one has to wonder if he is marriage material. And that is what I mean, this aceptance of a ws no matter what, one of the consequences of not being a good marital partner is you lose the marriage, but spouses who giving chances over and over just make it clear they do not have to really learn, maybe have to give up op, but don't have to carry their marital weight. My wife said maybe she should have an affair, I told her one per marriage, we have had our one, if she did, it would be goodbye.....immediately. People should learn, if they don't I don't know why so many of you waste your time with spouses who won't carry their weight. I don't think it is really love, I think it is fear of being alone, or co-dependency, or low self-esteem, or something not healthy anyways. The thing is, it is right and proper to try and restore a marriage, up to a point, but their must be tough love, and that means I might love you, but I am not going to be married to you, cause you are not marriage material. There are plenty of people available who will appreciate and nurture you, it is not that difficult for a self-assured, perceptive, MB graduate to find a good partner, and shame on the one who let you get away. And for you Biblically oriented folks, IMO the Bible makes it clear a case can be made for desertion by a spouse who does not behave as a spouse should, and that you can divorce them, and remarry.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by buffy:<BR><B>Dear S&L:<P>A lot of us women have been the backbone of our marriage for years, holding together all the little pieces of our lives...and in doing so we've forgotten how or maybe being strong women we never needed to use those aspects of our nature that are usually labeled feminine...needing to be taken care of, being weaker, not being logical or sensible...I mention only the aspects that I consider to be feminine in the eyes of men...there are others that are far more important.<BR>.<P><BR>Faye</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I see that alot of us female BS are very strong women, my H went to someone weak, that needed him. I don't understand this as he tells his sister how well I take care of things. And she says it is with pride in his voice.<P>I wonder are we too strong, do they think that we really don't need them, that we will be ok with out them?<BR><p>[This message has been edited by daybreak (edited September 03, 2001).]

Daybreak,<P>I was wondering the same thing. <P>SnL???<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited September 03, 2001).]

But then Jo, I get an e mail from him telling me to please let him go and get on with my life. I have!! The way I see it the ball is in his court and he must decide what to do, it's like he wants me to go ahead and file on him and that is something that I wont do, if he wants this he is going to have to do it himself, I have done most everything for us in our lives, not this time.

S&L:<P>Excuse me for venting at your expense (I have this thing about my WH needing that stupid, clingy OW when he has a perfectly wonderful woman at home)...but I'll get down off my soapbox if you will. <P>Well, you answered the question at last and thanks for that it was very informative:<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Male ws expect some neediness (but not woe is me, or clingliness) kinda a aggressive neediness, you want us, and will focus on us, but not crawl through the mud for us, or reward us if we don't respond right.... it is a dance. What doesn't work is an aggressive response, guilting, threats, manipulation....just pursue us like when dating. Not abide the A in your face, and so forth. It is hard to put into words, we want to know you want and need us, but that you can and will survive just fine without us if we are not worthy, but that you would be devastated if you lost us and we are worthy (like died or something). </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That term "agressive" neediness...Yes, I think that is appropriate...to be wanted...needed...and to be willing to express it aggressively to WS...some of us BS have kinda let that concept slip a little...certainly OP have no problem with it.<P>But I'll remind you that when dating as with OP you very seldom did wrong...in our eyes...because we wanted you and wanted to think you're the one. Our eyes kinda can see WS a little better....do we perhaps...need to get a pair of "rose colored" glasses to use when viewing WS...so we don't see their warts any more. LOL<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>That was the goal, for him to choose you, as for the lessons, that is a different issue. Apparently he did not, so one has to wonder if he is marriage material. And that is what I mean, this aceptance of a ws no matter what, one of the consequences of not being a good marital partner is you lose the marriage, but spouses who giving chances over and over just make it clear they do not have to really learn, maybe have to give up op, but don't have to carry their marital weight.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR> <BR>Oh My, Dorothy, we're not in Kansas anymore. <P>Dear me, my poor WH, cast out among the unmarriageable...after 30 years of marriage...whatever was I thinking all those years ago...must have just been lust.<P>No, he's learned...it just took him a little longer...he's even acknowledged that he was not as appreciative of how well I have managed everything and how stupid it was for him to think that all he had to do was concentrate on work and everything thing else would take care of itself.<P>Here's the real kicker...he's said that he use to think that a good marriage should come naturally...now he knows it takes work to have a good marriage. Not marriage material, huh. <P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>People should learn, if they don't I don't know why so many of you waste your time with spouses who won't carry their weight. I don't think it is really love, I think it is fear of being alone, or co-dependency, or low self-esteem, or something not healthy anyways. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Now S&L, I didn't say that he didn't carry his weight...I said he left a lot up to me...then resented me because I became strong in the process. And if you spend all your effort working or concentrating on work and have little left over for family..then you don't participate and don't have much invested in the marriage. And some day you might wake up and say "I'm not important here except for my paycheck. I think I'll find someone I am important to." <BR>Goodbye wife...HELLO, OW....<P>Either way, it's hogwash to assume that the marriage partner is lacking in self-esteem, or afraid to be alone, or co-dependent (whatever the heck that means) because I not any of those things. <P>Well, enough of this tail-chasing rhetoric...I wouldn't know what to do if I didn't have your posts to read and take offense to in some way...if you didn't make so much sense sometimes I'd quit reading them. Nite.<P>Faye<P><BR>

Ok, one more try, heck does anyone really know the answers to this stuff, or what attracts one person but not another? Anyways here goes again...<P>There seems to be an unfortuate by-product of being a capable, strong, supportive wife...that being some men start to feel unecessary, just there as a paycheck...this is addressed so well in the book the "surrendered wife". It seems the woman unknowingly, takes over the marriage, assumes dominance, and the male gets lost. In addition this can also include criticism of the male, and attmepts to make him over, for his own good of course. This has profound psychological repercussions. The male starts to feel unneeded, then ow comes along and makes it clear (however they do it) that she needs him to take care of and PROTECT her, this is powerful stuff, and explains why a male will leave a smart, capable, self-assured wife, for oft times, a needy clingy certifiable loser (and ugly to boot). All the time singing the praises of his wife. A make needs to feel he is your protector, that you will not do well without him (in a psychological sense), but he wants a strong capable woman (who wouldn't), seems strange doesn't it. But think about it, starts to make sense. In my case, my wife is pretty good at stuff, and a hard worker, but I never doubted she needed me, I know she won't do well without me, but she would not stop the criticism, and emotional distancing...despite my huge ego, finally convinced me she really didn't need me....and other issues as well (not relevant to this thread)... so I emotionally disconnected from her, and was just waiting for the kids to finish school then divorce....in the meantime I met ow, who made it clear I mattered to her, my feelings, my thoughts, my fears... they mattered, and she needed someone strong to nurture and protect her, she was emotionally vulnerable (to me, had closed off to her H long ago cause he did not take good care of her emotionally). It wasn't faked, she wasn't conniving, I just fit her, and she me, and it clicked....now of course everyones life is a disaster, cause the world is hard on finding love that way, but I have addressed that in other threads.<P>I sit her and read about some of the things you all do in your lives, and it is like a smorgasboard, I want to marry most of you....you are sooooo efficient, and capable, excellent wife material....and you do want and need your H, it is just somehow that got lost in the communication....or some of you are just married to men who are not good marriage material and was a bad investment for your love. You will do fine with another, IMO.<p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited September 03, 2001).]

Couldn't it be that we (BS) "want" the WS but don't "need" them to where we can't survive. Because that's how I feel. <P>I wanted my H, but I didn't need him to survive.<P>Jo<P>

quote from buffy<BR>"Here's the real kicker...he's said that he use to think that a good marriage should come naturally...now he knows it takes work to have a good marriage. Not marriage material, huh. " <P>Seeing your statement made me remember something that WH said to be a while back that our marriage shouldn't have to be this much work. <P>And it just kind of hit me, he was trying to make it work and doing so by himself as he was/had an EA and was trying on the marriage so that he could leave with a clear concious that he had tried. I had always done most of the work in our marriage like I had done most everything else in our marriage, and so when it was a little bit of work for him he bailed. How very sad for him. I did tell him that if we had been working together it wouldn't have been so hard, as it is for just one.<P>Thanks for the eye opener, Buffy!!<P>Yes Jo, I still want by WH back because I love him not because I need him.<BR> <p>[This message has been edited by daybreak (edited September 03, 2001).]

Jo, I think the needing him to survive is part of it, females being able to maintain on their own is a very recent development...... genetically the gender dance is clear, a woman needs a man for survival, and that still needs to somehow be communicated in a successful marriage.

SNL-- Females need males to reproduce and to have the typical american family or the family that the Lord intended for us to have. But after childbearing age, that dance changes.

SnL wrote:<BR>"The male starts to feel unneeded, then ow comes along and makes it clear (however they do it) that she needs him to take care of and PROTECT her, this is powerful stuff, and explains why a male will leave a smart, capable, self-assured wife, for oft times, a needy clingy certifiable loser (and ugly to boot). All the time singing the praises of his wife."<P>You just cited what happened to my H and I. Good lord!

Hey Jo & Daybreak:<P>I missed your posts because I was composing to S&L.<P>I don't think its because we don't need them...I think its because we have reached the more or less level of thinking we are equals and that not conducive to maintaining a continuation of the male-female status quo structure. We don't supply our males with the praise and affirmation for being the bread winner and the fixer that they are expecting as a result of their upbringing. In some ways they've been dispossess of their role as a the head of the family...because that role use to be given the breadwinner...and who is the breadwinner now...we all are. <BR>But we didn't take away their role as head of the house...they gave it away.<BR> <BR>We just have to make them understand that there is praise to be found in other areas then in breadwinning and I guess the only way to do that is to make an effort to start to praise them for little thing they do and then maybe they'll get the idea....like doing a good job of putting on the new commode seat at the office...I did this..it worked. I've put on several of them...no one ever praised me. Oh, what I do for love. <P>Faye

Yes, I understand that SnL, but my H "ENCOURAGED" me to be the self-assured female. He loved that I was capable and strong ... he praised me for it frequently. He told me several times he admired me for not needing him as much as wanting him. <P>Guess there's a fine line or balance.<P>Nite,<BR>Jo